Lumber exchange idea.

[Mark Hepburn]

Just wondering about the possibility of starting a lumber trading forum here. A place where "buyers" and "sellers" could post turning stock to trade.

Would the forum rules permit it?

Would anyone even be interested?

The idea - call it the Lumber Yard or whatever- is that someone who is just tired of turning their local stuff might trade for something else. No money would be permitted, and everyone pays their own shipping, eliminating any profit motive (in theory anyway).

Thoughts anyone?

Bill, is this something I should just shut up about?

 

[Mike Johnson]

Mark,

That would be kind of fun and worth looking into for wood types available in other regions
of the country. Not sure how the trade value of the wood could be determined without some
negotiating on each deal. You would almost need to post a value for the wood up for trade
to provide some idea on what to offer in trade.

 

[Owen Lowe]

I did this many years ago with a turner in Hawaii. Got a chunk of koa and some other pieces in exchange for figured maple. Around here, figured maple is nice and all but pretty common — so, it’s not all that valuable — I’d trade it for something from another part of the country that I can’t get around here.

With today’s flat rate boxes, you could just post a photo of the wood that fits and then agree or not to ship it in exchange for someone else’s box of wood.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Lumber? We ain't no stinkin' lumberjocks here. We use FOG wood

Actually this sounds pretty close to the Want Ads that we already have. I could create another sub forum in the Marketplace just for swapping wood ... no selling, just swapping. Let's mull this over a bit on what sort of controls would be needed to prevent it from becoming a business for some members. Maybe a limit on number of swaps per month. How about quantity ... what fits in a cardboard box or what fits in a forty foot shipping container. Also, how to keep it from being more work for me.

I can see the ads now:

"Bug free SYP wishes to swap with fresh green BLM ... no sappy wood please" ​

SYP = southern yellow pine
BLM = big leaf maple

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Lumber? We ain't no stinkin' lumberjocks here. We use FOG wood

Actually this sounds pretty close to the Want Ads that we already have. I could create another sub forum in the Marketplace just for swapping wood ... no selling, just swapping. Let's mull this over a bit on what sort of controls would be needed to prevent it from becoming a business for some members. Maybe a limit on number of swaps per month. How about quantity ... what fits in a cardboard box or what fits in a forty foot shipping container. Also, how to keep it from being more work for me.

I can see the ads now:

"Bug free SYP wishes to swap with fresh green BLM ... no sappy wood please" ​

SYP = southern yellow pine
BLM = big leaf maple

Sounds like a Craigslist post Bill.

I was thinking that the interested parties would just PM each other and then when a deal was done the title could be updated to indicate the wood was traded.

There could be some posting standards, like dimensions to be listed, a couple photos, green or dry, etc. but not anything excessive. If someone needed more information they could certainly ask.

As Mike said, you'd work out the trade among one another. Not really different from selling something except no money would be exchanged. The idea being that we aren't setting some folks up in a small business, and dont create additional site management work.

Owens idea of a flat rate box is great, too. I hadn't even thought about it, but it's possible to put a good bit of wood in a box at a reasonable rate.

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

I like the idea. I save all sorts of smaller scraps that I just know some pen turner would get excited by.

I took some dry rough bowls to Pennsylvania last week and gave them to the others in David Ellsworth's class. It was minimal effort for me, and the feedback was that it's was exciting to get something new to try out.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

You will also move wood/tree problems from one area to another, even breaking the law with some of that, I think you better rethink that Idea, though I must admit it could be nice IF we didn’t have all these problems.

 

[Bill Boehme]

....... and dont create additional site management work

I like Leo's idea. There is more than enough incidental work that nobody else sees. It's sort of comparable to the perspective of a guy that wedding plans take care of themselves. Trouble is that for some reason the gals just don't understand that.

The big danger of spreading pests is probably from lumber and firewood, but that doesn't mean that it can't happen with turning blanks as well. The AAW might not want to be involved in this by facilitating wood swapping. They got their hands slapped a few years ago at a symposium in California.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Yes, there are always unintended consequences, which is why a discussion like this is so good.

It was fun to consider.

C'est la vie.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Bill, you're right. Weddings don't just happen; it's a process:

The dad writes check after check for six to twelve months.

And voila! His daughter is married.

 

[Andy Chen]

You will also move wood/tree problems from one area to another, even breaking the law with some of that, I think you better rethink that Idea, though I must admit it could be nice IF we didn’t have all these problems.

As an entomologist I totally agree, Leo.

 

[Fadi Zeidan]

Wood is being sold online and shipped to different parts of the country on daily basis. I love the idea, it doesn't have to be trade only, selling and buying as well.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

You will also move wood/tree problems from one area to another, even breaking the law with some of that, I think you better rethink that Idea, though I must admit it could be nice IF we didn’t have all these problems.

As an entomologist I totally agree, Leo.

Okay, you guys are really starting to bug me.

Sorry but easy pickings.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

It's sort of comparable to the perspective of a guy that wedding plans take care of themselves. Trouble is that for some reason the gals just don't understand that.

Bill, for the benefit of men everywhere, I've attached a simple flow chart that my young bride used for her wedding. I think it's a staple in all issues of Modern Bride.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Final thoughts regarding vermin and such. Perhaps if participants were to have one of these simple installations to treat wood prior to shipping:

 

[Mike Johnson]

I really don't see the difference between ordering a wood blank from any other source,
they pack it up and ship it out and I receive the package. There are several states that
have limitations on wood products coming and going but the remainder of the states are
an open market as far as I have experienced. The flat rate box would be the easy way to
quantify the volume of material being shipped, there are several sizes of flat rate boxes
available from the USPS that are no charge for the box. I usually keep a few of each size
on hand for items I ship out each week and pick up more at the post office when needed.
The U.S. imports materials, food and organisms from every corner of the world that come
into the country every day, the "cat" has been let out of the bag a long time ago.
Millions of board feet of lumber come from South America and Asia on a constant basis,
inspectors have no way of overseeing the volume of materials coming into this country for
potential pests in these shipments.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Mike,

I tend to agree with you. I buy blanks from all over the place because the local woods here aren't very appealing or varied.

But I didn't consider the additional workload on Bill and that really is a can of worms I didn't want to open. I really appreciate his significant investment in the success of this forum and don't want to add to the burden.

I really thought that it could be a somewhat self-regulating process that didn't require a commitment to thread management and moderator oversight (except for the occasional bare-knuckle brawl over whose - or is that who's - wood was the better in a deal. LOL!

But I've gotta say that I'd hate to get a piece of wet wood with an Asian carp in it. Just sayin...

 

[hockenbery]

I really don't see the difference between ordering a wood blank from any other source,
they pack it up and ship it out and I receive the package. There are several states that
have limitations on wood products coming and going but the remainder of the states are
an open market as far as I have experienced. The flat rate box would be the easy way to
quantify the volume of material being shipped, there are several sizes of flat rate boxes
available from the USPS that are no charge for the box. I usually keep a few of each size
on hand for items I ship out each week and pick up more at the post office when needed.
The U.S. imports materials, food and organisms from every corner of the world that come
into the country every day, the "cat" has been let out of the bag a long time ago.
Millions of board feet of lumber come from South America and Asia on a constant basis,
inspectors have no way of overseeing the volume of materials coming into this country for
potential pests in these shipments.

Mike, you are right that there are no the enough inspectors.
And they don't catch everything. we now have laurel Wilt killing all the red bay trees in the southeast with a near 100% mortality. Came in with some sort of packing material They are hoping to keep,it out of the avacado groves.

But they do prevent many pests and slow thenredistribution of those established.

The biggest source of invasive pests are shipping containers, pallets, and packing materials.

 

[hockenbery]

We have had invasive species in the current US since the whole US was the Spanish colony of Florida. You may remember DeSoto brought a few tiny beasties on his traveling pigs that wiped out a whole civilizations along his path.

However, most importantly, we do not yet have every invasive species so practical efforts should be made to prevent further introduction and increased distribution of those with established populations.

It is too late for the chestnut trees, American Elm, the red Bay and maybe the Ash.
It would be nice to keep our remaining species as long as we can.

 

[Owen Lowe]

Owens idea of a flat rate box is great, too. I hadn't even thought about it, but it's possible to put a good bit of wood in a box at a reasonable rate.

I order alabaster from Utah and one chunk (20-35 pounds) will ship in a large flat-rate box. Granted the box is terribly damaged by the time it arrives but I’ve never lost a stone or had one broken yet. For this to be sent as non-flat rate shipping is waaay more expensive. If it works with a rock, wood is no problem at all!

 

[Mike Johnson]

Maybe we can just post pictures of wood that we like that fits in a box, and what ever
happens after that is what it is.

 

[stu senator]

Bill, you're right. Weddings don't just happen; it's a process:

The dad writes check after check for six to twelve months.

And voila! His daughter is married.

The Brides Father Instruction set.

1 Show up
2 Shut up
3 Pay up

Stu

 

[Mark Hepburn]

I order alabaster from Utah and one chunk (20-35 pounds) will ship in a large flat-rate box. Granted the box is terribly damaged by the time it arrives but I’ve never lost a stone or had one broken yet. For this to be sent as non-flat rate shipping is waaay more expensive. If it works with a rock, wood is no problem at all!

Talk about unintended consequences! I'll bet the letter carrier freaks out every time a box arrives with your address on it.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

1 Show up
2 Shut up
3 Pay up

Stu[/QUOTE]

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

I like the flat rate box idea and then no money to exchange. Just let each sender pay for the box they send. I would gladly trade Mississippi cherry for mesquite . And as Mark said we could do this on PM after a post of available wood. Bill would that represent more work on your end?

 

[Bill Boehme]

I really don't see the difference between ordering a wood blank from any other source,
they pack it up and ship it out and I receive the package. There are several states that
have limitations on wood products coming and going but the remainder of the states are
an open market as far as I have experienced. The flat rate box would be the easy way to
quantify the volume of material being shipped, there are several sizes of flat rate boxes
available from the USPS that are no charge for the box. I usually keep a few of each size
on hand for items I ship out each week and pick up more at the post office when needed.
The U.S. imports materials, food and organisms from every corner of the world that come
into the country every day, the "cat" has been let out of the bag a long time ago.
Millions of board feet of lumber come from South America and Asia on a constant basis,
inspectors have no way of overseeing the volume of materials coming into this country for
potential pests in these shipments.

Every single state has regulations regarding certain species of wood moving across state lines, but unfortunately they are routinely ignored. This has had devastating effects in many parts of the country. One example is the Walnut Twig Beetle which has now spread to the eastern part of the country. Oak Leaf Wilt will eventuality wipe out the predominant tree in north Texas. Texas doesn't allow oak firewood to move across country lines in certain areas. I'm sure that Andy knows of one or two more.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

As the nephew of a now-deceased professor of entomology at Rhodes University in South Africa, and after spending my youth collecting bugs at his direction, I should have thought of that. I didn't intend to create a controversy and sorry to those of you I have troubled with this. It was unintended so please accept my apology. Andy, just in case, as an entomologist, you're interested, here's my uncle Randy's info from his old college.

http://www.ru.ac.za/communicationsa...deceased2014/professoremeritusrandallhepburn/

Mark

 

[Bill Boehme]

I have swapped wood with other members in the past. It generally happened as a result of a discussion about certain wood species followed by PM's. However, until I become more enlightened on the matter I don't believe it would be prudent for me to actively promote this activity without the advice and consent of the AAW policy makers.

I think that it would be smart of us to become aware of the issues about pests and diseases that affect trees and be seen by the public as responsible users of our forest resources rather than being viewed as a group with only selfish interests.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Bill, I agree. I don't want to create the possibility to contribute to the possible spread of disease or pests.

Plus, you know, the Asian Carp thing I mentioned.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Throw your box of wood in the microwave for several minutes and the nasty bugs will be no more.

 

[John Torchick]

I remember seeing streets lined with elm trees, offering a green tunnel to travelers and pedestrians. I recall seeing something that another species of elm is being cultivated that is resistant to the Dutch Elm Disease.

 

[Owen Lowe]

I remember seeing streets lined with elm trees, offering a green tunnel to travelers and pedestrians. I recall seeing something that another species of elm is being cultivated that is resistant to the Dutch Elm Disease.

I recall reading about a single elm tree that appears resistant to the disease. Cuttings (and cloning?) are being researched to see what it is about this one tree that is different from the rest.
> I believe this is what I read about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulmus_americana_'Lewis_&_Clark'_=_Prairie_Expedition

 

[DON FRANK]

I can get online and purchase about any specie of wood I want from a number suppliers on ebay and other places. Perhaps precautions have been implemented and perhaps not. If we swapped wood that would fit into one of the prepaid boxes and if it did not have any bark included, and if the wood was anchor sealed or coated with paraffin....... ???
My understanding is that most of the problems that occur with insects or disease are associated with the bark attached. I'm guessing that someone on here with more knowledge will correct my assumption.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

From my reading so far, kiln dried wood or wood subjected to heat or methyl bromide is okay. By the way, methyl bromide is an ozone-depleting pesticide scheduled for complete phaseout by 2017, and highly regulated (but you can get it on ebay for $29! - crazy!)

Then, there are tons of laws regarding the movement of firewood across state lines (essentially - don't). And I imagine that our green wood would be considered not too far removed from firewood.

Here are some links:

http://www.dontmovefirewood.org/gallery-of-pests/common-names.html

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ou.../sa_wood_packaging/ct_wood_packaging_material

http://www.dontmovefirewood.org/the-problem/firewood-faqs.html

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Throw your box of wood in the microwave for several minutes and the nasty bugs will be no more.

I wonder seriously if boiling would be an acceptable remedy for most of the bugs? I guess it would depend on species and the destructive agent, be it a pest, pathogen or whatever.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

There is an agreement on the standard wood treatment, called phytosanitary wood treatment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISPM_15

Sweet Chestnut, Elm, Ash, ..........which one is next ??,

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Leo,

USDA / APHIS Link also refers to that standard. 56C is not a difficult temp to reach. 133F.

In the HACCP world that's just below minimum acceptable food holding temps, so I was surprised at such a low temperature being the norm.

If that's the standard then it's a simple matter to set the oven to minimum temp and cook the wood for a couple hours. a small pilot hole and probe thermometer to check the temp.

More info on heating temperatures:

http://ucanr.edu/sites/WoodyBiomass/newsletters/FPL_Wood_Handbook33299.pdf

 

[Bill Boehme]

When I was a college student I worked at an ice cream production plant. The requirement was to heat the mix in the pasteurizer to 160° F for 30 minutes and test randomly for coliform bacteria Wood is a pretty good insulating material especially if it is dry. I noticed when scanning through the reference material that it did confirm my thoughts about methods of heating and that heat alone will dry the wood and slow down the rate of thermal conduction. I also saw that 30 minutes was a good number for cooking pathogens in wood. something important that I am sure the document addresses is that to achieve the desired temperature at the core of the wood in a reasonable length of time, the exterior temperature needs to be much greater than the required 133° F core temperature. With the ice cream mix in the pasteurizer, it's a simple task because the mix is being constantly stirred just as a lot of food prepared in a kitchen can be stirred for more efficient heating, but a hunk of wood is sort of like a thick roast (apologies for the unfortunate analogy) in that the core temperature is considerably less than the surface temperature. Hopefully that is the only similarity.

Something to think about when dealing with wood that isn't native to your local area is disposal of the shavings. If it is a species that might have a pest problem then using the shavings for mulch or sending to the landfill could help introduce the pest into new turf and it might take a liking to the local angiosperm cuisine.

 

[John Torchick]

Bill, I would have applied as a taster in the ice cream plant. I worked with a lady whose husband worked in a local dairy. She said their freezer was full of samples to try and evaluate. I told her I was up for adoption.
It would seem that the bigger the diameter, the longer the wood would have to be "cooked" to kill any unwanted critters. BTW, insects can be only one problem. There would be the possibility of fungus and algae in or on the wood. Cleaning the bark might take care of it but not guaranteed.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

When I was a college student I worked at an ice cream production plant. The requirement was to heat the mix in the pasteurizer to 160° F for 30 minutes and test randomly for coliform bacteria Wood is a pretty good insulating material especially if it is dry. I noticed when scanning through the reference material that it did confirm my thoughts about methods of heating and that heat alone will dry the wood and slow down the rate of thermal conduction. I also saw that 30 minutes was a good number for cooking pathogens in wood. something important that I am sure the document addresses is that to achieve the desired temperature at the core of the wood in a reasonable length of time, the exterior temperature needs to be much greater than the required 133° F core temperature. With the ice cream mix in the pasteurizer, it's a simple task because the mix is being constantly stirred just as a lot of food prepared in a kitchen can be stirred for more efficient heating, but a hunk of wood is sort of like a thick roast (apologies for the unfortunate analogy) in that the core temperature is considerably less than the surface temperature. Hopefully that is the only similarity.

Something to think about when dealing with wood that isn't native to your local area is disposal of the shavings. If it is a species that might have a pest problem then using the shavings for mulch or sending to the landfill could help introduce the pest into new turf and it might take a liking to the local angiosperm cuisine.

Actually is a good analogy. Some of that data are presented in the charts and you anticipated what they indicate. A typical oven often cant be set below 170F, which is a good temp for this. Addd a pan of boiling water at the start of the process and plan on changing periodically to aid in heat transfer.

I'm thinking my electric smoker is even better because I can put water in the wood box to create a super moist atmosphere. Also I can set it pretty low for cold smoking.