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Making Turningtools

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Hi guys/gals. I have been making quite a few turning tools for myself, not because I need them, but because I want to make them. Lately I have been thinking about making a bowl gouge, or spindle gouge. The prolem is obvious. How is the best way to cut the flute into the steel rod? So my question to anyone on the forum is, Do you make these gouges and if you do how do you cut in the flute? I am thinking of buying whatever machine that would be best for doing this. What machine would do this for me and still be within reason pricewise? I would appreciate any information you can give me on this. I can easily make the rest of the tool but never attempted cutting in a flute. This is just for my own enjoyment, not trying to make any money so I would like to do this the easiest way possible but I want good results. Thanks, Mitch
 
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I made my first turning gouges when I started turning almost 20 years ago. I used an 8" reinforced cutoff grinding wheel in the tablesaw to rough-grind the flute in a 1/2" diam. x 8" HSS tool blank purchased from Wholesale Tools.
I used a sliding table on the tablesaw, resting the steel blank in the table's groove and starting with the wheel lowered to about even with the table's top surface. It took several dozen passes over the course of maybe an hour, raising the wheel a little at a time. HSS is pretty tough stuff. Then I finished off the flute with a cylindrical grinding stone in a portable drill.
There were very few sparks from the HSS to present a fire hazard but it's wise to clean the wood dust out from beneath the saw before doing this type of thing.

As far as milling HSS, it needs to be in the annealed state then sent out to be hardened--an exacting process not easily done in the home shop without special equipment.
 
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john lucas

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Depending on what you have available a horizontal mill would be my first choice. A surface grinder with custom shaped wheel works well. My best friend did just that and it worked great. I'm not a machinist so take this with a grain of salt. I've made a lot of tools but never a bowl gouge.
 
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Ken
Thanks, now that sounds like a plan I can understand and think I will try. The question now is, after all that work, how did that gouge perform for you?Was it worth the effort? I am just looking for the challenge and satisfaction of making my own. I have several store bought. Thanks. Mitch
 
R

Ron Sardo

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I made two flute-less gouges, one 1/4" and the other 3/8". I grind a flat area leaving about 65% of the metal, then I grind a "Ellsworth" with long wings.

While they do not hog out tons of wood, they work great and I use them often.
 
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John
I'm no machinist either John, but I was a manager in a mill where we had a milling machine and the maintenance chief used to let me fool around on the vertical milling machine when I had a government job of my own. I always ran some type of machinery so never had a problem learning to run a milling machine, Them days are gone but the thrill of the challenge to make my own is still there. I think I am going to try Ken's suggestion above along with a few wrinkles of my own. You may not be a machinist John but your one heck of a turner. Thanks for your input. Mitch
 
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Mitch, you can make spindle tools just by grinding the flute, buy a thin grinding wheel (1/2 or 1/4) and shape the wheel to the profile you want. A flute 1-1/2 inches long is enough to make a useable tool.

Bowl gouges are tough without the proper machines and loads of custom tooling.

Everyone please note the tool Ron Sardo just mentioned... it's a killer tool and will leave a beautiful finish without tearout. Use larger diameter stock and it works very well inside a bowl from the side walls to the bottom without tearout. Easy to make.
 
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Ron
Thanks for your input. Not sure I know exactly what you mean here but I want to understand. You mean you made a 1/4' and one 3/8" diameter gouge? You flatten out the top of the rod the length of the missing flute, flattening 35 percent of the thickness of the rod and leaving 65 percent? Then you sharpen with an Ellsworth grind? The angle is? Then when you need to sharpen you just hone across the flat top? Am I understanding you right? Thanks again Ron and your work is very good. Mitch
 

john lucas

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I've been thinking about making just the tips. I have a 3 in one machine but it's limited in what it can do. I thought about making 3" long tips that can be inserted into a longer bar. This would allow me to try all sorts of different shapes without having a lot of metal and time involved. With the Wolverine jig you remove so little metal that these will last a long time.
That being said, it's hard to beat Dougs tools so I will probably just by more of those.
 
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Doug
Thanks for the input. You say buy a wheel and shape the wheel. By that Doug, do you mean radius the wheel? Then go ahead and grind the flute? The short flute sounds like a good idea to see how the tool works but I think I would want to go a bit longer. What do you say would be an optimum depth for the flute if your grinding a spindle gouge? Your right about needing a bunch of tooling. Years ago I had access to a milling machine and with that machine making a flute would be a piece of cake. Thanks again Doug. Mitch
 
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Once again John, thank you, where do you get all these ideas John? Do you mean insert a 3"long say 1/4"cutter into a say1/2" rod and grind this for the cutter?Does this work? You mentioned buying tools from Doug. Is that the Doug who just replied on this thread? What tools does he make? Our Woodcraft store in Pittsburgh just closed their doors and I need someplace to get tools occasionally now. Thanks again, Mitch
 
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I've been thinking about making just the tips. I have a 3 in one machine but it's limited in what it can do. I thought about making 3" long tips that can be inserted into a longer bar.QUOTE]

If you want to try let me know I'll send some steel then you send it back to be heat treated. Your idea sounds like it's worth a try.


Mitch, get a couple pieces of steel and try different depths and radius on each. Radius the wheel and don't remove over half the diameter.

Edit - Mitch, call me at 440-241-6360 after 12 noon. I can answer your questions by phone easier than typing everything out.
 
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Ron
You and Doug were certainly right when you said the fluteless gouge with the ellsworth grind was a real killer of a turning gouge. I made one tonight and turned a small hollow vessel using it and it thrilled me to death, it worked so good. I didn't even turn a handle for it yet and it turned smooth as can be. I even shaved the hair on the side of my leg with it just to scratch my leg. Made it out of 1/2" HSS.
Thanks for the tip Ron. I am going to make a couple with the flutes ground like Doug suggested soon as I get some more steel.Mitch
 
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Doug
I made one of the fluteless spindle gouges with a Ellsworth grind on it last night. Works like a dream . I used 1/2" steel rod. Didn't turn a handle yet but I turned a small HF and just used this gouge for everything and, like you said it hollowed everything so smooth I couldn't believe it. both sides looked great. I need to get some steel and a new rough grit stone for my grinder. Is there a 36 grit? I am a little mixed up now. You say get a half inch or quarter inch wheel for cutting flutes and do at different depths. I thought I was going to use a hand grinder for this. Did I misunderstand? I will call you like you suggested but can't untill friday. Hospital appointments. Thanks Doug. Mitch
 
R

Ron Sardo

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Ron
Thanks for your input. Not sure I know exactly what you mean here but I want to understand. You mean you made a 1/4' and one 3/8" diameter gouge? You flatten out the top of the rod the length of the missing flute, flattening 35 percent of the thickness of the rod and leaving 65 percent? Then you sharpen with an Ellsworth grind? The angle is? Then when you need to sharpen you just hone across the flat top? Am I understanding you right? Thanks again Ron and your work is very good. Mitch

You have the first part right.

I mentioned an Ellsworth grind as a generic term. I sharpen my homemade gouges just like I sharpen my store bought gouges, on my wolverine clone.

Here is a picture gallery of different types of grinds
http://www.woodcentral.com/newforum/grinds.shtml

BTW - the steel on my 3/8" fluteless gouge is Thompson Steel
 
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john lucas

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Mitch I was talking about taking a 1/2" piece of steel and putting a 3/8" tenon on the one end. Then grind a flute on the other end. The 3/8" tenon would go into a hole drilled in a 1/2" or larger bar. These ends would be replaceable. someone actually sells these in already ground flutes. I just thought it would be a simpler way to experiment with flute design before you make the full size piece. I do know that my gouges last a lot longer now than they did when I was grinding them freehand. This makes the short gouge tip more of a reality. There might be better ways to attach the tip.
 
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An edge is an edge. If you think it's necessary to make the tool totally out of some HSS alloy, you might want to reconsider. As an example, take the Oland tool as shown in http://www.aroundthewoods.com/oland.shtml which might be described as a "fluteless gouge" were it not an oxymoron. The grind can be a continuously variable angle similar to what you would put on a fingernailed or "bowl" gouge to allow bevel support when plunging and rolling. The same, with an unvarying bevel angle is known as a "scraper," and is featured in many interchangeable end tools like the Sorby multi-tip scraper.

Will it move a lot of material? You bet it will, but it takes a lot of force if presented flat into the cut, or even uphill as shown here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jznN1FCmZTw You can see that the piece is turning very rapidly to provide a lot of kinetic energy, which can be a big problem if the piece is out of balance. Throws the shavings back into the operator's face unless the tool is rolled, too. If the bevel is seated, it's a cut, if not, a "shear scrape," the shear angle provided by the curvature of the tip.

If working steel is your thing, have at it. I like to control the flow of shavings away from myself, taking broader and thinner shavings, taking advantage of the secondary curvature of the flute to prevent catches and allow taking a feathered shaving which minimizes uplift against those two upgrain portions of a cross-grain bowl. Makes for less sanding and uses the tool attitude rather than the operator's strong arm to maintain the cut.

As an example of a shallow flute (not a no flute) shear cutting, Take a look at the virtually uninterrupted shavings possible on green wood in the still, or the length of almost transparently thin shavings possible on dry wood http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n28/MichaelMouse/?action=view&current=CherryPeelIn.flv where even shaving uphill produces barely enough force to break the shaving.
 

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I made two flute-less gouges, one 1/4" and the other 3/8". I grind a flat area leaving about 65% of the metal, then I grind a "Ellsworth" with long wings.

While they do not hog out tons of wood, they work great and I use them often.


Thanks Ron

Do you have any pictures of such a gouge?

Robert
 
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Michael Mouse. Thanks Michael The Oland tool is one I made already and the hook is something else. You need to practice with this baby to become proficient. Darrell Feltmate makes it look easy because he uses one quite a bit. Yes it is a bunch of fun turning a big bowl from wet wood and is easy to make the chips fly with a well sharpened gouge. Mitch
 
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Doug Thompson
Ron Sardo said he buys his steel from you. Do you sell to everyone who needs steel or just to friends? Is it tool steel? Mitch
 
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Michael Mouse. Thanks Michael The Oland tool is one I made already and the hook is something else. You need to practice with this baby to become proficient. Darrell Feltmate makes it look easy because he uses one quite a bit. Yes it is a bunch of fun turning a big bowl from wet wood and is easy to make the chips fly with a well sharpened gouge. Mitch

A hook or ring tool is just a gouge at 90 degrees to the shaft, of course. Can be a real grab if you use it as you should never (in my opinion) use a gouge - nose up into the rotation. The roughing versions help keep you from this by their small diameter. Can't keep you from being aggressive, though. Once the form is open, they can be supported and skewed like a gouge.

Here's my hero with the hook tool. http://www.robin-wood.co.uk/makingbowls2.htm Must be quite the defender on his football team with the size of his working leg!
 
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Doug Thompson
Ron Sardo said he buys his steel from you. Do you sell to everyone who needs steel or just to friends? Is it tool steel? Mitch

Mitch, I take it for granted that people know about this... it's www.thompsonlathetools.com and I sell a3/8 X 6 inch blank that is used to make a 3 point tool, round skew and round scraper like Ron made. The steel and heat treatment make it stand out from the other tools sold. It's something I did because it's enjoyable but ended up as a business.
 
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Doug
Thanks for taking the time to write this reply Doug. I know about your fine reputation for making tools Doug but when You first replied on this thread I was just reading the Doug in your name and not connecting the two names, didn't realize I was talking to the man himself,(wink). I have been looking for a 1/2" wheel for my grinder but not having much luck. Tried cutting a flute in a 1/2" rod and did a respectable job with a hand grinder, but putting the edge on it wasn't so good. Didn't have any steel and just used the other end of the spindle gouge I turned and if it turned out ok was going to use one of them Hosaluk handles. Just turn the tool around and use the end needed. Best of luck to you Doug. Mitch
 
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I can't recall where to find thinner wheels but they are out there... maybe a smaller diameter.

When I answer a post it's as Doug the woodturner and not the other guy so I don't say anything about the company.

At Bill Grumbine's 5 barns this year Ron Sardo and I were talking about tools, he brought out the tools he will take a picture of this weekend and I had a larger version for bowls. Lol It doesn't matter what diameter they are the design works.
 
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Doug
Thanks Doug, if they are out there I will eventually find them. I really have a fire burning inside to make a few good useable tools. I enjoy this as much as the turning part. I hope Ron is posting his pictures here on the week end. Anxious to see what he made. I ordered a 46 grit wheel from Oneway last night. Thought they had a lower grit but they don't. Well at least I am sure it should be a good wheel if from Oneway. Regards, Mitch
 

john lucas

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Mitch Check with Enco. They have 1/2" thick surface grinding wheels in all grits. They have 1 1/4" holes so you will have to build an adaptor. For a 46 grit J hardness white wheel look at 240-3410. Cost is $12 49
 
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pictures?

I made two flute-less gouges, one 1/4" and the other 3/8". I grind a flat area leaving about 65% of the metal, then I grind a "Ellsworth" with long wings.

While they do not hog out tons of wood, they work great and I use them often.

Ron, do you have any pictures of your tools? I'd love to see them.

Thanks
 

john lucas

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my super miniature gouge for turning the micro mini goblets is flutless. Partly because I didn't know how to make one that small. It seems to work fine and actually gives me little curls. The big goblet is 1/4" the little one is getting down there pretty small.
 

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[pfffft]

my super miniature gouge for turning the micro mini goblets is flutless. Partly because I didn't know how to make one that small. It seems to work fine and actually gives me little curls. The big goblet is 1/4" the little one is getting down there pretty small.

What? No captured ring on the small one?!?!?! :D

I have two guys in one of my local groups that volley to and fro making smaller and smaller items.
 

KEW

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my super miniature gouge for turning the micro mini goblets is flutless. Partly because I didn't know how to make one that small. It seems to work fine and actually gives me little curls.

Just an observation - one guy in our area gets good results using a dremel to make a shallow pocket where the flute would be - kind of like what the Hunter tool has. It seems like it would help to give a better exit route as opposed to the chips running into a flat wall.
 

john lucas

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My mini turning tools are too small for any dremel wheel. The shaft on the new ones I'm making are only .015". The chips fly across the top so the only real difference is the included angle.
 

KEW

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He doesn't use a wheel. He makes a small divot with the tip of a small grinding burr. It is not a flute, just a tiny pocket.
I'm not sure how well you could do this on anything smaller than 0.050".
0.015" is a thin sewing needle!
 
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