Discussion in 'Tutorials and Tips' started by odie, Jan 1, 2013.
??? Which part(s) do you disagree with??? Enlighten me please.
A lot of broadsides being fired today.
I can't tell what the target is or if there is any particular target. (Ducking for cover ...)
I use a glove when roughing through bark or a large, irregular piece. Without a glove, the side of my left palm has gotten quite abraded and raw by the wood chips and splinters. My glove (left hand only) of choice is either a leather work glove with the fingers cut off at the mid-point or a fingerless bicycle glove with padded palm.
The recommendation for no gloves around a lathe, I believe, stems from the metal machining trades. What is the mechanism that pulls a gloved hand into a lathe? Is it the metal ribbons that accumulate?
My post was directed at MM's above mine. I will elaborate later.
That's the way I took it......and, I'm in agreement with it.
As the saying goes......."If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with...........!
I don't use a glove very often, but there are two specific conditions when I do. One of those conditions was mentioned in my first post of this thread. A soft cotton glove (with the fingertips cut off) is what I use sometimes when I want the ultimate smooth sliding contact between my hand and the tool rest. I don't always need the cotton glove, but there are times when it helps. The other time is during roughing bowls for seasoning. If I'm taking a big cut, sometimes the shavings are hot enough to be a discomfort. I have a leather glove I use for these times. Neither of these instances require a glove all the time, but there are times when I feel a glove is warranted.
It's true that using a glove does absolutely increase the risk, but being unaware, or lax towards that risk is usually what causes problems. The wood lathe, itself, is not without risk each and every time you turn it on, bring it to speed, and apply tool to wood.........nothing is fool proof, but there is the performance you are seeking somewhere between using every safety precaution imaginable, and being totally oblivious to the dangers.......
I also use a fingerless glove on my left hand only when roughing the outside of green bowls. I never have my hand past the rest, so in my mind, I'm being safe. And I am more aware of where my hand is when it's gloved.
Ditto to what Owen said about being peppered with chips and bark.
Yessir. That's the way I took it as well. Agree also, I do......
No, during actual milling there is a flood of coolant liquid and sometimes air that keeps the cutting area free of swarf. On CNC machines there is also a shroud that keeps hands away from the cutting as well as keeping people from being doused by coolant and swarf.
Any rotating or moving part with sharp edges (such as an end mill) can and will grab anything that comes in contact with it and pull it into the rotating spindle or other moving parts. This can happen so fast that it is over before anyone know that something has happened. During operations like tooling changes and machine set up would be the times when an operator would come into contact with moving parts. Even with safety procedures like "Lock Out - Tag Out" you do everything that you can to avoid getting yourself wrapped around the axle because there is no single safety precaution that is foolproof.
Thanks Bill. Your explanation about rotating cutters makes complete sense and jibes with Ian Thorne's son's experience with a saw blade. So, it seems to me that the machining and wood lathe situations are different given the rotating edge tool/stationary stock vs. the stationary chisels/rotating stock we use. I'm thinking there's little direct risk correlation for the machinist's glove restriction to apply to wood turning.
Are there any reports of woodturners being injured at the lathe due to wearing gloves?
You figure that I'd be able to find SOMETHING on the net. Unfortunately couldn't find a thing relating to reports of actual injury from a wood lathe caused by wearing gloves.
I did however, find this, which you might find humorous (I did):
My explanation was just a typical example, but it wasn't intended to be comprehensive. Clothing can get wound up on even a relatively smooth spindle. I knew a persdon who left the PTo running on his tractor while he went to check the hay baler. The PTO grabbed the bottom of his pants leg and wound him up.
The company where I worked for 30 years before retiring also had a woodworking shop that built wooden fixtures, jigs, and shipping crates, a model shop that built wind tunnel models, full scale pre-production wooden mock ups of machined parts and assemblies, and a carpenter's shop for facilities work. The same safety requirements existed there as on the production floor.
Regarding you last question, you're looking for something that doesn't exist -- but please don't take the absence of data as tacit proof that there is no safety issue. Industrial accidents are documented and data are compiled with the goal of improving safety in the workplace. There is no such requirement for accidents around the home. When I first started turning, I wound up my right hand and dislocated my right index finger and damaged some ligaments by trying to sand the interior of a shallow bowl that had a bark inclusion. A couple years later, I fileted the back of my hand while reaching over a surgically sharp bowl gouge. However, you won't find either of those listed in any repository of "Stupid Turner Tricks". In all my years of turning, I have only seen two or three turners who wore gloves. Maybe there is a reason the number of turners wearing gloves is so small. Having seen what can happen when clothing gets caught in a machine, I won't be putting on gloves when operating a lathe.
I think you need to have a look at some of the lengths of the handles on a lot of the old turners tools to appreciate what tool control is all about.
Both grips are useful for certain jobs, overhand is generally used for roughing cuts and underhand for finessing.
Most turners that I know do this.
I usually use the underhand grip as the shavings clear the flute a lot easier. You can also see what the tip is doing a lot easier.
Because you like quoting sources so much, here are a few for you.
Mike Darlows "The practice of Woodturning" Page 113 section 6.4
Barry Gross "Learn to Turn" Page 44.
Unfortunately My copy of Frank Pains book is on loan and I cannot reference that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqPuDFtz_-Y You will note that at 4:10, overhand grip but when the shape needs to be finessed at 7:08 an overhand grip.
This is the way that I think most turners work.
To say that he overhand grip is the be all and end all and offers better control is utter rot.
Your and others' examples of injury are horrific and illustrative to those situations. I won't argue that there are appropriate safety precautions to follow. However, they vary depending on the specifics of the mechanism for injury. As was tragically evidenced recently, long hair needs to be secured way from any possible contact with rotating components whether it be on a metal lathe, a wood lathe, a drill press, or a clothes washer. The same precaution does not need to be followed when operating a random orbit sander, for example, because the mechanism for causing injury is different.
That was my point about metal lathe operation versus wood lathe operation regarding gloves. If it's the sharp cutting edge that grabs a glove when machining, that mechanism is non-existent with a wood lathe. Therefore, the safety requirement is not universal to all types of lathes.
Regardless of opinions here, the bottom line is that we, as individual hobbyists, need to assess the risk and take precautions as we see necessary.
I don't want to pirate the thread, but the discussion of grip styles made me think of the Robust Low Profile Rests. These are apparently intended for people who wrap their hand around the rest itself, contrary to several strong recommendations above. Here's a Robust picture showing their intention:
If Robust is making a rest specifically for this style of grip, somebody must be using it. Thoughts?
The rests and the hand position is particularly useful for those who do very delicate and tiny finial work. They use their fingers to steady the wood while cutting.
Thanks for this link, Dean........
I had been unaware that the low profile rests were intended for fingers to be on the back side of the rest........but, the picture shows that is indeed the case! Like many things, advantage comes at a trade-off. In this case, I don't see why the rests can't be used this way, but awareness of the possible risks, and allowing for them should give a reasonable margin of safety.
As Alan said, being able to wrap your fingers around the rest is very useful for small spindle work. I have two of the Robust low profile rests for general purpose use. There is no requirement that you must wrap your hands around the rest. Robust makes an even lower profile rest -- the J rest.
A good example of using the finger as a steady is shown at about the 2:30 and 6:00 minute marks in this video.
I appreciate that, Alan........
The video was very informative. I see that he's reaching under the rest and using his fingers to steady the very delicate finial. This makes possible for very good tool control, and dampening of flexing........
For similar effect, I sometimes reach over the rest and curl my fingers around the top and back of spindle with my palm planted on the rest while my thumb guides and pushes the gouge. Others do this as well, especially with skews.