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MT2 -- how snug is a good fit?

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Question about how a Morse taper should fit to be considered good. A few of my drive centers and tail centers are very snug, with no play at all, when slid into the head- or tail-stock. Some have a little play. One of these is the taper end on my Beall 3-wheel buffing shaft, which surprises me. This is troubleshooting week, so not an idle question. Ran into project-killing misalignments before Christmas, had to stop one pie-server short. There's a Nova live center system on its way, which should be higher quality than anything of the current centers.
 
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john lucas

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There shouldn't be any play whatsoever in a morse taper. That's what the taper is supposed to do. It bottoms out when the surfaces mate. The holding power comes from that long mating surface. If the Morse taper has any slop whatsoever you will have only a small portion at the most mating with the female taper and no holding power. If your other morse tapers seem to fit then I would think the female socket on the lathe is OK which means the loose mores taper isn't good. Get rid of it or return it if possible. Make sure there aren't any burrs on the bad taper. Always clean out the morse taper socket before installing a morse taper. Any debris at all will make them fit loosely and not hold.
 
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There shouldn't be any play whatsoever in a morse taper. That's what the taper is supposed to do. It bottoms out when the surfaces mate. The holding power comes from that long mating surface. If the Morse taper has any slop whatsoever you will have only a small portion at the most mating with the female taper and no holding power. If your other morse tapers seem to fit then I would think the female socket on the lathe is OK which means the loose mores taper isn't good. Get rid of it or return it if possible. Make sure there aren't any burrs on the bad taper. Always clean out the morse taper socket before installing a morse taper. Any debris at all will make them fit loosely and not hold.

Thanks, John. The Beall got scarred when I tried to use it, hope they'll take it back. The other loose ones were bought a long time ago, so they'll go in the junk drawer. Will be interesting to see if the Nova seats well, it'll be in next week.
 

odie

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Jamie.......is it possible your Beale Morse taper extends farther into the socket than the other attachments? Not all Morse taper accessories extend the same distance into the socket. This could explain it, if there is some sort of obstruction at the far end of the spindle......
ko
 
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Good info here as usual. The forum members are quick to share their experience and observation over the years.
My question: How do you clean the headstock? I was thinking of using a mop used for cleaning a shotgun bore. No soaking in oil or solvent although it would keep rust down. Thanks in advance for the tips.
 

Bill Boehme

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I'll also second what John said. Both the taper and the socket in the spindle should be perfectly smooth without any burs or gall rings that are caused by slipping. The thing that holds a taper in the socket so tightly is that the surfaces are machined to a precision that is on the order of a ten-thousandth of an inch and these high precision surfaces are able to hold because inter atomic forces basically bond the surfaces together as though they are a single piece of steel. That's the idealized description ... in reality, the two pieces aren't perfect so the holding ability is reduced. Because these tapers are very high precision parts, they should be treated as such. Don't toss them into a pile of other tools where the surface can get dinged and scratched or allowed to rust. Even a very tiny scratch is serious damage and so is even slight surface rust. If any of your tapers have a gall ring, it is almost certain that the. Spindle socket also has a matching gall ring. This will prevent any other taper from properly seating. The best thing to do is repair the damaged spindle socket and tossing out any damaged tapers.
 

john lucas

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Odie is dead on. Some morse tapers have a tang on the end and this will block some of them from going into lathes all the way. It is possible the morse taper is too long although I would think in either case they won't go in far enough to even grab. I had to cut the tang off my drill chuck because it would work in the powermatic but not in the Delta Midi. I screwed up and cut it too short so then the powermatic would not self eject it. I had to drill and tap and put a screw in to take up that extra length.
 
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This morning, I went back and tried all the drive centers and live centers. My two regular drive centers are snug, the Beall is loose, both of my live centers fit fine, but the Jacobs chuck has a small wiggle. If the Beall has an extra-long fitting, don't know what I'll do -- will measure it against the others tomorrow. Seems odd, since they're often used on the minis, that it would have an extra-long taper.

I wish I lived in a world as ideal as Bill describes. I am pretty careful when stowing and retrieving the centers from their little drawer. However, the taper in the headstock has had a "gall" inside for as long as I can remember (scratch that goes all the way around inside, perhaps an inch or so beyond the entrance to the taper. Might not be since the lathe was new (I bought it with perhaps 2 hours of use on it), but certainly as long as I've know to check for such a scratch. It doesn't seem to hamper the drive center (4-spur with spring-loaded tip) in terms of holding power.

Somewhere here on AAW I saw a post about a "reamer" that was kinda pricey but could be used to restore the inside of a Morse taper to be clean and smooth. Am not finding it in my subscribed threads. Ring a bell for anyone?
 
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Good info here as usual. The forum members are quick to share their experience and observation over the years.
My question: How do you clean the headstock? I was thinking of using a mop used for cleaning a shotgun bore. No soaking in oil or solvent although it would keep rust down. Thanks in advance for the tips.

There is a soft plastic product called i think a "green weenie" which can be used to clean the "bore" taper before inserting a taper. I do not use a MT a lot ,but I do have a gall in both my lathes and have not seen a slippage in the drive spur due to any metal contact problem-------slippage in the wood yes.
 

john lucas

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I have a morse taper #2 reamer. However I would not use it unless I had a metal lathe (which I do) . Maybe you could just barely use it to rough out high spots in a taper but I would be afraid if you used it by hand to resize a taper you could throw off the alignment. If your other tapers seem to fit well I wouldn't mess with the inside of the taper. The problem seems to be the Beale taper somehow.
 
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This morning, I went back and tried all the drive centers and live centers. My two regular drive centers are snug, the Beall is loose, both of my live centers fit fine, but the Jacobs chuck has a small wiggle. If the Beall has an extra-long fitting, don't know what I'll do -- will measure it against the others tomorrow. Seems odd, since they're often used on the minis, that it would have an extra-long taper.

A machinist’s method to test the fit of a taper is to completely coat the taper with dye (a Sharpie works just as well - you may need to apply 2 coats). After it’s dry, gently insert the taper all the way into the clean socket and lightly rotate either the taper or the spindle about 1/8 of a revolution — make sure one stays fixed. Where the marker is removed are the high areas where the taper is making contact. A properly fitted taper makes nearly full (80-100%) circumferential contact at the small and large ends - full length contact is not necessary for a secure fit.

Whether or not you choose to do the fitting test, I’d recommend you contact Beall to investigate an exchange given that the other tapers hold securely.
 
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A machinist’s method to test the fit of a taper is to completely coat the taper with dye (a Sharpie works just as well - you may need to apply 2 coats). After it’s dry, gently insert the taper all the way into the clean socket and lightly rotate either the taper or the spindle about 1/8 of a revolution — make sure one stays fixed. Where the marker is removed are the high areas where the taper is making contact. A properly fitted taper makes nearly full (80-100%) circumferential contact at the small and large ends - full length contact is not necessary for a secure fit.

Whether or not you choose to do the fitting test, I’d recommend you contact Beall to investigate an exchange given that the other tapers hold securely.

Thanks, Owen, that's very helpful info. And yes, I'll have to call Beall. Bummer. Gotta get all this straightened out (so to speak), or I'll be doomed to only wine stoppers and small bowls.:( The other two things I'm troubleshooting (no need to address in this thread, will go to separate ones if need be), are alignment of headstock and tailstock (which may be resolved) and a Talon chuck that's throwing stock off center.
 

Bill Boehme

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This morning, I went back and tried all the drive centers and live centers. My two regular drive centers are snug, the Beall is loose, both of my live centers fit fine, but the Jacobs chuck has a small wiggle. If the Beall has an extra-long fitting, don't know what I'll do -- will measure it against the others tomorrow. Seems odd, since they're often used on the minis, that it would have an extra-long taper.

I wish I lived in a world as ideal as Bill describes. I am pretty careful when stowing and retrieving the centers from their little drawer. However, the taper in the headstock has had a "gall" inside for as long as I can remember (scratch that goes all the way around inside, perhaps an inch or so beyond the entrance to the taper. Might not be since the lathe was new (I bought it with perhaps 2 hours of use on it), but certainly as long as I've know to check for such a scratch. It doesn't seem to hamper the drive center (4-spur with spring-loaded tip) in terms of holding power.

Somewhere here on AAW I saw a post about a "reamer" that was kinda pricey but could be used to restore the inside of a Morse taper to be clean and smooth. Am not finding it in my subscribed threads. Ring a bell for anyone?

If you leave the gall there it will just ruin all of the MT tool shanks ... actually already has caused some damage to all of them and for absolute certain you won't get perfect alignment with that gall ring there. Morse taper reamers are hand tools and not meant to be chucked up into any power tool unless you know for certain that you have one that is. There are two different Morse taper hand reamers that you will find ... one is for removing large burs and the other is for light touch up work. Generally, you will only need the the latter. The purpose of the reamer is to only remove any material that is proud of the surface. Any grooves aren't a problem.

To use a MT hand reamer, first give it a good coating of lightweight machine oil (3-in-1 is good) and then while slowly twisting it clockwise gently insert it into the socket until it engages the burs. Give it about a half turn and then remove it and clean off all of the swarf. Also use a paper towel to clean out the spindle socket. Re-oil it and repeat until all of the bad material has been removed. There is no need to force the tool into the spindle just far enough to make solid contact. When satisfied that all of the burs have been removed, check with a flashlight. You will still see a groove, but no bur. You could stop at this point, but I like to polish the socket using a SpinLMate tool.

The reason that the drill chuck is loose as Odie indicated is there is usually a a flat at the back end of those adapters which fits into a keyed slot on drill press quills. This keeps the tapered shank from slipping and also there is a slot in the drill press quill quill where a knockout tool is inserted to remove the chuck and MT shank. Some of the new woodworking drill presses do not have this feature, but instead just use a chuck that screws onto a threaded shank. I have used my bench grinder to remove this flat "key". I don't know what the deal might be with your buffing MT shank. Mine must be an older design that uses a threaded bolt that goes into a drill chuck.
 
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Gall fix

This morning, I went back and tried all the drive centers and live centers. My two regular drive centers are snug, the Beall is loose, both of my live centers fit fine, but the Jacobs chuck has a small wiggle. If the Beall has an extra-long fitting, don't know what I'll do -- will measure it against the others tomorrow. Seems odd, since they're often used on the minis, that it would have an extra-long taper.

I wish I lived in a world as ideal as Bill describes. I am pretty careful when stowing and retrieving the centers from their little drawer. However, the taper in the headstock has had a "gall" inside for as long as I can remember (scratch that goes all the way around inside, perhaps an inch or so beyond the entrance to the taper. Might not be since the lathe was new (I bought it with perhaps 2 hours of use on it), but certainly as long as I've know to check for such a scratch. It doesn't seem to hamper the drive center (4-spur with spring-loaded tip) in terms of holding power.

Somewhere here on AAW I saw a post about a "reamer" that was kinda pricey but could be used to restore the inside of a Morse taper to be clean and smooth. Am not finding it in my subscribed threads. Ring a bell for anyone?


I have a #2 Morse taper reamer which you are welcome to borrow. You should mount it in the tailstock and slowly advance it into the headstock while it is running very slowly -- it won't take much. But as others have said, you have to clean up that gall/scratch. PM me if you are interested. If you live in the Chicago area, I'll do it for you.
TA
 

Bill Boehme

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I have a #2 Morse taper reamer which you are welcome to borrow. You should mount it in the tailstock and slowly advance it into the headstock while it is running very slowly -- it won't take much. But as others have said, you have to clean up that gall/scratch. PM me if you are interested. If you live in the Chicago area, I'll do it for you.
TA

I have never seen a woodturning lathe with perfect alignment (+/-0.0001") between the spindle and tailstock. There is always some radial misalignment as well as angular misalignment. I can't imagine that doing this isn't going to result in bellmouthing the MT socket in the spindle.
 
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I have never seen a woodturning lathe with perfect alignment (+/-0.0001") between the spindle and tailstock. There is always some radial misalignment as well as angular misalignment. I can't imagine that doing this isn't going to result in bellmouthing the MT socket in the spindle.

I would argue with this Bill. Although I have no idea what kind of lathe she has, this should work fine unless it's a real piece of junk. And she is obviously talking about a sloppy headstock fit that is way off, not just a mis-alignment of some thousands of an inch.

This is the solution that Craft Supplies suggested to me back in the early 90's when I had a defective Woodfast lathe that I bought from them (made in Australia). Nish even sent me the reamer.
 
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I had some trouble with my Beal buffer coming loose in the spindle. It is threaded for a draw bar, a piece of 1/4" threaded metal bar from Ace fixed my problem. Just put a washer and a nut on the end and tighten. It don't have to be very tight to hold.
 
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I had some trouble with my Beal buffer coming loose in the spindle. It is threaded for a draw bar, a piece of 1/4" threaded metal bar from Ace fixed my problem. Just put a washer and a nut on the end and tighten. It don't have to be very tight to hold.

Fred, thanks for the suggestion. I use a shop-made draw bar for the wine stopper mandrel from Ruth Niles, so am familiar with their use. Given the amount of "slop" with the Beall taper, though, not sure it would stabilize completely -- given how long the buffer shaft is, any movement at the headstock is greatly magnified on the other end!:p I'll install it with the draw bar, but not run the lathe -- just try to wiggle it and see what happens. I want to talk to Beall before running the buffer again, especially since it got a scratch on the mandrel from running it before.
 
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I would argue with this Bill. Although I have no idea what kind of lathe she has, this should work fine unless it's a real piece of junk. And she is obviously talking about a sloppy headstock fit that is way off, not just a mis-alignment of some thousands of an inch.

This is the solution that Craft Supplies suggested to me back in the early 90's when I had a defective Woodfast lathe that I bought from them (made in Australia). Nish even sent me the reamer.

I really appreciate your offer, Tom, and most likely will take you up on borrowing it (Can't afford to fly you out to the Puget Sound, LOL.) It would be reassuring to use a reamer that you've used and know to be good. There's so much junk on the market these days, I'm not inclined to just order one willy-nilly. I have an acquaintance here on the island who used to work metal lathes at Lockheed, I don't know how much experience he might have with this kind of fixing, but I can ask him. The other thing I've wondered about is how hard/expensive it would be to just replace the spindle. It's a "vintage" blue Jet 1236 that's old but has very few hours on it, so it would be worth fixing if it's not too expensive. Would like to try the reamer first.

As far as just how sloppy the fit is, wish I could give you a measurement, but my set of feeler gauges has gone missing, and since they're automotive size, they may not help anyway. I guess in the thinner sizes they're pretty flexible. I'm pretty sure the sloppy fit is due to the male centers, not the spindle socket, so I'm not looking to re-do the whole thing in some big way, just clean up any proud metal around the scratch that's inside.
 
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If you leave the gall there it will just ruin all of the MT tool shanks ... actually already has caused some damage to all of them and for absolute certain you won't get perfect alignment with that gall ring there. Morse taper reamers are hand tools and not meant to be chucked up into any power tool unless you know for certain that you have one that is. There are two different Morse taper hand reamers that you will find ... one is for removing large burs and the other is for light touch up work. Generally, you will only need the the latter. The purpose of the reamer is to only remove any material that is proud of the surface. Any grooves aren't a problem.

To use a MT hand reamer, first give it a good coating of lightweight machine oil (3-in-1 is good) and then while slowly twisting it clockwise gently insert it into the socket until it engages the burs. Give it about a half turn and then remove it and clean off all of the swarf. Also use a paper towel to clean out the spindle socket. Re-oil it and repeat until all of the bad material has been removed. There is no need to force the tool into the spindle just far enough to make solid contact. When satisfied that all of the burs have been removed, check with a flashlight. You will still see a groove, but no bur. You could stop at this point, but I like to polish the socket using a SpinLMate tool.

The reason that the drill chuck is loose as Odie indicated is there is usually a a flat at the back end of those adapters which fits into a keyed slot on drill press quills. This keeps the tapered shank from slipping and also there is a slot in the drill press quill quill where a knockout tool is inserted to remove the chuck and MT shank. Some of the new woodworking drill presses do not have this feature, but instead just use a chuck that screws onto a threaded shank. I have used my bench grinder to remove this flat "key". I don't know what the deal might be with your buffing MT shank. Mine must be an older design that uses a threaded bolt that goes into a drill chuck.

Thanks, Bill, that SpinLMate is what was brought up in the thread that I couldn't find! The info from Odie and you on the Jacobs chuck will be helpful too. I'm not in the shop today (or yesterday) -- taking a little time out for family and football since it's in the 20's outside. I can heat the shop, but hate to waste the pellets when I'm only out there for a couple hours at most.;)
 
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