My Evolving Thoughts on Sharpening

Discussion in 'Tutorials and Tips' started by Jeff Gilfor, Jul 14, 2014.

  1. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    Odie,
    We should spend a day of turning together. Maybe I could show you how to use scrapers....

    robo hippy
     
  2. odie

    odie

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    LOL......Let's see your results, old boy! :D

    Perhaps I could teach you a lesson.

    Still havent' got that web site going after all these years after promising you'd show us your works?

    ooc
     
  3. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    Had problems with the old "host", but the new one is pretty much functioning now. Hope this doesn't run afoul of the moderators because I do sell some products. Check out my 'turning a bowl with scrapers' clip.

    http://www.robohippy.net/

    robo hippy
     
  4. odie

    odie

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    Your bowls show a need for great amounts of sanding, Robo........ You would do well to learn how to get a tool finish that requires little sanding. Maybe I could help you with that if you are interested.......

    ooc

    The following is the method for determining how much sanding is required to finish a bowl. You and Mark M. both have similar symptoms of no corners on intersecting edges......all rounded over. One of your bowls show distinctly that the walls aren't of uniform thickness......another indication of excessive sanding. Lack of detail grooves isn't conclusive, but if one can't make good cleanly cut details, the normal is to not do them.......The solution is to start with a surface that requires little sanding, and this is the key to opening the doors you didn't know were there.

     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2014
  5. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    Odie, You will like this one.
    The dried live oak bowl can be sanded with 220, 320 and then apply finish.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jVoI12Kfug

    Side ground gouges sharpened on a 60 grit norton 3x wheel
    Spindle gouge on a norton 3x wheel 100 grit No honing fresh off the wheel

    I should add that sanding the rim is a bit tedious.
    Removing the bark takes a few minutes then I use a round drum in a Foredom with 220 and then 320.
    A bit difficult to follow the bark contour.

    On cut rim bowls I always soften the rim corner because they are dangerously sharp.
    I don't want to cut myself taking the bowl off the lathe or handling it. I have done it more than once.
    And I for sure don't want customers to cut themselves.

    Al
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2014
  6. Jeff Gilfor

    Jeff Gilfor

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    Odie... I like the idea of the cotton gloves. I can see how they would make small and fine tool movement easier. I have not had any issues with sliding along my tools rests since I converted to all Robust rests and rounded the sides of ll my square tools (scrapers and skews).

    I just cannot get enough control of my honing devices to allow more that three or maybe four honing a before heading back to the grinder/sharpener. I've tried diamond cards, diamond files, and even have one of D-way's CBN honing bars. I just cannot keep the perfect angle. I'm sure that it is also a matter of more practice being required. I too use the Veritas burnished, and find that it seems to give a much more long lasting burr than the CBN wheel or honing. I reserve using that device for final sheer scraping if needed.

    I will say though, that I do like the burr coming off the Tormek, when sharpening the scrapers with the wheel turning away from the tool. I keep the stone graded to 220 for that. Seems cleaner of a scrape. I also have suffered a few nasty superficial cuts on my fingers checking the edges of tools sharpened with the Tormek. I didn't even know I had cut myself until washing my hands later. That, for me, is the hallmark of scary sharp tools!
     
  7. odie

    odie

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    Hi Al......actually, I've seen this video of yours before.....as well as most of Robo's. Take a look at those bowls that aren't natural edge, and the point I've been making is obvious. The need for excessive sanding.......the doors just aren't opening for Robo, or Mark M., either. Charlie Knighton had a great example in the other thread when he mentioned Hans Weissflog, but there are many great examples of turnings that require little sanding, as well as those that do. Those that do require excessive sanding are an indication of starting sanding with a surface that could have been executed better from the start.......

    ooc
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2014
  8. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    Odie,

    I avoid sharp corners and remove them. I suspect you are are talking about sanding round over.

    I always soften the edge of cut rim bowls with a shear scrape because the gouge cut leaves them scary sharp.

    I have been cut more than once. I for sure don't want to get cut taking the bowl off the lathe or have a customer get cut picking it up.

    Al
     
  9. odie

    odie

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    Jeff......

    I don't always use the cut off cotton gloves, but when I need them, they work well. Sometimes my sweaty hands are a factor in the need.....! The Robust rests are some of the best available. That hardened top bar is great, but still can be improved with the use of the 3m wheel from time to time. Honing is all a matter of practice.....not a lot of practice, but there is a learning curve to it. I have a brace built into the side of a bench that secures the tool handle. This greatly helps to steady the tool steel working end for a better "feel"......probably would help to get the angle right for you. I have mounted a handle to the back of my most used diamond hone......this also helps to get a good grip on the hone.

    If the burr off the Tormek is working, there is no reason to change. There are more than one way to get a burr, and the only thing that matters, is results. Like I said, the burr, if it's substantial, is not nearly as important as tool handling......that's the key. Only practice will open that door for you! :D

    Sharp is sharp......but, sharp to some people isn't the same as it is for others. Only you can decide that, and the only indication isn't cutting your finger, but the results you are getting.

    I apologize to you for the twist this thread took.......but, Robo and I have covered this ground before. He thinks he can teach me, and I feel I could do the same for him.....the results we each get are the evidence of our claims.:eek:

    ooc
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2014
  10. odie

    odie

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    I'm talking about excessive round over, because the intersecting planes don't match up well. The bottom line reason why they don't match up well, is the surface prior to sanding could have been done without the need for much sanding at all. After sanding to 600gt on both intersecting planes just prior to applying the finish to an otherwise completed bowl, there is a very sharp resulting edge, but this is minutely rounded with a quick swipe of the 600gt paper directly on the corner. The corner isn't sharp, but gives a refined look to an edge that intersects cleanly and distinctly.

    You may be talking about taking off the dangerous edge at the roughing stage, and if you are, I'd agree. I, too, take off that edge with a quick swipe of the tool.

    ooc
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2014
  11. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    III take that edge off as soon as I cut the rim.
    Both in returning a dried bowl or turning a green bowl.

    I do a small shear scrape with the gouge.

    Just too dangerous for me to have a bowl diameter razor edge spinning around.

    Al
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2014
  12. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    If the wall thickness looks uneven, it is a property of shrinkage as the wood dries. Side grain shrinks a lot, and end grain shrinks very little. On a 5/16 inch wall, the difference can be 1/8 inch or so, depending on the wood. This is not from over sanding. I have found that turning green to final thickness, no matter how I turn, leaves a coarser surface than turning dry wood. I am guessing that in part it is because the shrinking enhances even the smallest deviations.

    I haven't met a turner yet that I couldn't learn some thing from. Odie, you say you are from the 'Great Northwestern Territory'. That covers a lot of territory. Are you near enough to come to the Oregon Woodturning Symposium in Albany Oregon this March? I will be there.

    robo hippy
     
  13. odie

    odie

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    Lathe turning has plenty of inherent risks......but yes, Al, I do get your meaning. As mentioned previously, I don't let a sharp edge stay on a roughed bowl, but when it gets down to progressing through the grits towards a final surface ready to apply a finish, there is an advantage to leaving that edge intact right up until when the final grit is completed. At that point, the sharp edge is taken off with a quick swipe of 600gt......not enough to notice by eye, but enough to dull the edge for safety's sake. Leaving the corner there is also for the visual effect of refinement, and gives the appearance of fine craftsmanship. Also, as said previously, the distinct corner isn't possible, if the foundation for it requires excessive sanding.

    ooc
     
  14. odie

    odie

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    Thanks for the invite, Robo......doubt I'll make it, though.

    I'm spending more time in my shop than I ever imagined I would, and that will escalate soon, when I retire at 66......a little more than 9mo to go. Sales, this year, are my best ever.....and, I'm feeling very inspired by this. Just a tad over $3000 in sales since January.

    Right at this moment, I'm visiting with my 93 year old Mom, and no access to my shop......and, spending a lot of time on the forum this week. Will be back to work and usual routine next week........

    Robo, you should include a link to your web page in your posts. That way there is a reference point to your posts here. I'm sure neither one of us are going to revise our opinions about woodturning, but it would be good to have you and everyone else not be so mysterious......especially when we're giving advice to the newer turners. I'm up front about showing my work, and if everyone was doing the same, I'm betting it would lead to this forum being popular, because of the openness and integrity of the frequent members. You also might consider having an AAW member gallery, as should a few others here. I'd be willing to bet that if a member gallery were a requirement for senior members of the forum, this forum could be one of the best woodturning forums of all. As it is, we've got the same conflicts with substandard expertise, and wannabe posters that plague most all forums. Those looking to improve themselves, and seek opinions, just don't know whose to value, and at what degree. Some regulations could be the key to making this good forum into a great forum.

    Differences of opinion are a good thing, and should be celebrated and discussed, but everyone should put their cards on the table, and show everyone what they got......if integrity is to be maintained.......:cool:

    ooc
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2014
  15. Jeff Gilfor

    Jeff Gilfor

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    Odie. No apologies needed. I enjoy watching you two spar back and forth, and have enjoyed it in the other thread where it has occurred as well. I'll just stand off to the side and eat popcorn until you are done. Highly entertaining! I almost spat out my coffee reading you rib Reed about his website... Yet again!
     
  16. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    Odie,
    I am not sure about having a link to my web site on my posts since I am also commercial. I want to be careful about that. But, if I am asked, then I will post the link.

    robo hippy
     
  17. odie

    odie

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    It would be pretty easy to set up your AAW member gallery......

    ooc
     
  18. Jeff Gilfor

    Jeff Gilfor

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    Okay guys (especially Odie), I will set up MY gallery this weekend. Although I have been a wood turner for only a relatively short time (compared to many here), I am passionate about it and have logged an enormous number of hours in my shop. I have been told (by several professionals and instructors) that I have natural ability, but am ALWAYS anxious to receive constructive criticism on my technique and aesthetics.

    I gotta say that Odie is one of those people here who has very much affected my thinking on the topic of tool sharpening and the concept of getting the best tool finish possible. Not that I'm modeling my life after him or anything, but his posts are ALWAYS thoughtful, insightful, and carry real weight with me.

    I do think, like in many pursuits, where there is as much art as there is technique (photography, painting, anesthesiology... yes, seriously. You would be surprised), opinions will vary, and there can be many roads to a common end. I have learned since a teen, not to trust anyone who uses the terms "always" or "never" when explaining how to accomplish a task. It is that pedantic thinking that prevents innovation. If there were no break-away thinkers in woodturning, we wouldn't have Michelson or Ellsworth grinds, or inside out turning and multi-axis techniques. I believe (my opinion here) that both Odie and Robo have valid points, and can both be learnt from (I think that was the correct tense of learn).

    I am a BIG fan of scrapers, and have picked up more than few pointers from Robo. I also am a big fan of sharp and keenly finished tools (as I've said before), and have been influenced greatly by Odie's posts.

    I don't think there will ever be a consensus on this topic, but the conversation is sure enlightening and entertaining!

    Now I'm going out into the shop to fit the Tormek jig holder to the fine side of my dry grinder. Figure I might as well use those expensive jigs as much as possible. Also, I agree with most that the Tormek is a TERRIBLE tool for SHAPING gouges and skews. It's great for SHARPENING, but takes way too long to reshape an edge. I'm gonna' use the fine CBN wheel. My 80 grit CBN will keep it's fitted Robo-rest.

    Micro-photos will be posted hopefully sometime next week.
     
  19. odie

    odie

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    Jeff and others......

    My intent wasn't for those who are casual members of the forum, or seeking advice, to have an AAW member gallery......unless they want to. It's my thought that those who frequent here (1000+ posts maybe) and are giving advice, that photos of their work would be very helpful to see, when applying the advice given to the results achieved.

    This thread has made me think about what transpired here, and I think that Robo is indeed making some nice things. They are entirely different than what I produce, but fine work nonetheless. Since his objectives, and my objectives are very different, then it would be good for the observer to see what each of our methods are achieving for each of us. Now, let's say that someone wishing to learn from the advice given in a thread, and both Robo and I had both given opposing opinions.......then that person would best give more consideration to whomever comes closer to the kind of results THEY personally are aiming for. By having the AAW gallery, and putting our cards on the table (so to speak), simply means there is a visual reference point for deciding how much of whatever is said, applies to another's idea of what direction they want to take.


    Some of the biggest failures of internet forums, is the inability to distinguish between apples and oranges, armchair quarterbacks, and the real players, conditional responses to specific needs, and on and on. If there were some way to maintain integrity, while allowing diversity.....THAT forum would probably be a stand-out.

    ooc
     
  20. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    Odie, I didn't recognize you. You cut your hair........ I used to think you might have been part hippy also...

    Yea, like the old saying goes, "Ask 10 woodturners the same question, and you will get at least a dozen different answers". I add to that, 'What, only a dozen different answers?'

    robo hippy
     

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