Negative Rake Scrapers

[Jamie Straw]

Starting this thread so we can share info, impressions and grinds. I have two of these now, 1/2" and 3/4", ground by a chapter member who uses them to great effect on small boxes, mostly exotics or hard domestic woods such as Madrona. Pics below are of the 3/4" he ground for me. A very forgiving grind to go into a box with, yet produces a super-smooth surface when used correctly and kept exquisitely sharp with frequent touch-ups. He sharpens his on a dedicated platform with a 1" Baltic Birch riser on it. He's promised me I can video him the next time he does a grinding session at a meeting.

Here are the left and right sides:


And the bottom:

 

[Fred Belknap]

I don't really understand the bevel on the bottom, can't see that it would help.

 

[hockenbery]

I don't really understand the bevel on the bottom, can't see that it would help.

Grinding the bevel on the bottom is what raises the burr the top.

 

[Justin Stephen]

Grinding the bevel on the bottom is what raises the burr the top.

What Fred is seeing in these pictures, and I see the same thing, is that there is a third bevel on the bottom. If that is the case, it wouldn't raise a burr in a useful place. I agree in that I don't see what good that does, at least from a cutting edge standpoint, although I guess it might help with clearance somehow.

Personally, I just grind mine like a chunky skew (a little larger included angle than a traditional skew) at the same angle on the top and bottom.

 

[Jamie Straw]

What Fred is seeing in these pictures, and I see the same thing, is that there is a third bevel on the bottom. If that is the case, it wouldn't raise a burr in a useful place. I agree in that I don't see what good that does, at least from a cutting edge standpoint, although I guess it might help with clearance somehow.

Personally, I just grind mine like a chunky skew (a little larger included angle than a traditional skew) at the same angle on the top and bottom.

It's probably for clearance.

 

[robo hippy]

Thought I had a thread here on the NRS, but maybe I posted it on another forum and didn't get it here..... CRS....

Anyway, on all of my scrapers, I relieve the heel, just like I do on gouges, but for a different reason. When sharpening, if I have a 3/8 inch thick scraper, it requires a bit more pressure and time to refresh an edge if the bevel is full thickness.

There seem to be two types of NRS's, one with the same bevel on both sides, like the skew that inspired them. I have 2, one is 35/35, and the other is 30/30. These are the ones I use on the inside of bowls, for the lids and bottoms of end grain boxes, and for 'adjusting' the shoulders of threaded boxes. I have found them useful for taming some really difficult woods when the shear scrape does not seem to work. Following Stuart Batty's info, the edge is gone in seconds. You can still feel the burr, but it doesn't cut as well.

The other is more similar to the ones Jamie shows, which is a more traditional scraper bevel on the bottom, and a shallow bevel on the top, like a 70/20. I use both. These are what I use for the insides of scoops, and some boxes.

What I don't understand is why you can't take a standard scraper, raise the handle a lot higher, and get the same type of cut. How fine the burr doesn't seem to matter, 80 grit to 1000 grit, to burnished. I have burnished the burr down and then back up, like you do with card scrapers, and that does 'refresh' the edge, but it doesn't cut as well. I can do the same with a standard bowl scraper, with pretty much the same results.

Stuart does talk about 'included' angles having to be less than 90 degrees for best results, so the 30/30 fits in there fine. The 70/20 is at 90 degrees, but I can still get excellent results. Still working on trying to figure out this tool.

I haven't tried a negative rake Big Ugly yet... What I find interesting with this tool and metal, is that the burr seems to be the same no matter how I raise it, 80 to 1000, or burnished.

robo hippy

 

[john lucas]

Reed in my experiments with the negative rake scraper it puts less forward pressure against the wood than a regular scraper held with the handle high. Most noticeably when using it on winged natural edge bowls. It shows up as less chatter. A very subtle thing. It also might be easier for beginners to control a tool horizontal on the tool rest vs held high. I'm really not the best person to join this discussion because i rarely use scrapers anymore. If I do it's a negative rake or it's a regular scraper with the handle very high and tilted to what we all call a shear scrape angle.

 

[robo hippy]

The comment about shear scraping with the handle held high is interesting. I saw a demonstrator at the Symposium in Minneapolis who did that. Asked him why and he said because it is a scraper. Saw the same thing in a Craft Supply video. With a ) nose profile, you hold the handle down to keep working on the lower half of the tool, similar to what you do with the skew chisel because if you try to work the top part of the tool, you are not 'balanced' and it tips over in a catch or that nice spiral dig in cut...

robo hippy

 

[Tom Albrecht]

Starting this thread so we can share info, impressions and grinds. I have two of these now, 1/2" and 3/4", ground by a chapter member who uses them to great effect on small boxes, mostly exotics or hard domestic woods such as Madrona. Pics below are of the 3/4" he ground for me. A very forgiving grind to go into a box with, yet produces a super-smooth surface when used correctly and kept exquisitely sharp with frequent touch-ups. He sharpens his on a dedicated platform with a 1" Baltic Birch riser on it. He's promised me I can video him the next time he does a grinding session at a meeting.

Here are the left and right sides:
View attachment 9809View attachment 9810

And the bottom:
View attachment 9811

What are the angles on that scraper?

 

[John K Jordan]

...What I don't understand is why you can't take a standard scraper, raise the handle a lot higher, and get the same type of cut.

I asked the same question once and with no good answer I tried some experiments. For me, the negative rake is much more controllable. I think this is because the tool can be held flat on the tool rest instead of at an angle. When held flat on the rest, I can also hold my right arm against my side for support.

Also, using the scraper inside a smaller bowl or closed form might be difficult or impossible if the handle was raised high.

JKJ

 

[Jamie Straw]

What are the angles on that scraper?

Sorry, Tom, I just saw this and am in bed for the night. Will check it tomorrow and post.

 

[Jamie Straw]

I asked the same question once and with no good answer I tried some experiments. For me, the negative rake is much more controllable. I think this is because the tool can be held flat on the tool rest instead of at an angle. When held flat on the rest, I can also hold my right arm against my side for support.

Also, using the scraper inside a smaller bowl or closed form might be difficult or impossible if the handle was raised high.

JKJ

I think you're spot on, John. That's what I meant by "forgiving" (=controllable). Inside a 2-inch box especially. Imaging holding a scraper handle up high, just seems very awkward in terms of maneuvering the tool around.

 

[robo hippy]

I would guess top angle is kind of free hand, and about 20 degrees, and bottom angle is about 70, kind of like mine.

In the inside of boxes, I guess I need to make a specialized NRS, kind of tiny. When cleaning up the inside of boxes, most of the time I use a fluteless gouge in a shear scrape. Flat scraping would be a problem, in part, and it depends on profile, would be getting through the transition. I do always have a small radius in that corner.

Generally when using scrapers I hold them flat rather than angled down, and haven't noticed that is ever a problem. I would never point them up into the wood though...

robo hippy

 

[Bill Boehme]

I don't really understand the bevel on the bottom, can't see that it would help.

I agree with you. Other than that one odd thing, the grind looks very much like my NRS.

Note to Al ... picture #3 is the bottom view. Maybe it's for clearance in small pieces.

 

[Jamie Straw]

Note to Al ... picture #3 is the bottom view. Maybe it's for clearance in small pieces.

Yep. Yes. Ja. (10 characters)

 

[Jamie Straw]

What are the angles on that scraper?

Tom, the main bevel is 75. Top bevel kinda hard to measure, but right around 14.

 

[Tracy Tame]

I use 75° and 20° bevels on a Thompson 1-1/4" scraper that is ground 3/4" on the nose and radiused back 1-1/2" on the side using a 600 CBN wheel. This makes for a bur that is over 2" long that seem to last on dry cherry.
Now this is my first NRS so I have nothing to compare it to, but it works for me.

 

[Jamie Straw]

I use 75° and 20° bevels on a Thompson 1-1/4" scraper that is ground 3/4" on the nose and radiused back 1-1/2" on the side using a 600 CBN wheel. This makes for a bur that is over 2" long that seem to last on dry cherry.
Now this is my first NRS so I have nothing to compare it to, but it works for me.

Just for giggles, you might want to try making the included angle less than 90, see what happens. Yours is the first I've heard of that was >90. Sounds like you're getting good results though. Are the cuts nice and clean?

 

[Bill Boehme]

.... Yours is the first I've heard of that was >90. Sounds like you're getting good results though. Are the cuts nice and clean?

The second time. I mentioned in a preview thread that I make the angle intentionally greater than 90°. About a decade ago our club prez took a class with Michael Hosaluk and liked his take on the advantage of the larger included angle.

The cuts are very clean, but the disadvantage is that the small bur is shorter lived than a NRS with a more acute angle. The advantage is that it is more forgiving of how it is used.

 

[robo hippy]

I talked to Tom Wirsing, and he will be stopping by to chat, and I will have to talk to Stuart as well. Stuart is a fan of the less than 90 degrees included angles, and I had about a half hour chat with him about NRS's, and CBN wheels, and fine burrs.... I will get this figured out eventually.

robo hippy

 

[Jamie Straw]

I talked to Tom Wirsing, and he will be stopping by to chat, and I will have to talk to Stuart as well. Stuart is a fan of the less than 90 degrees included angles, and I had about a half hour chat with him about NRS's, and CBN wheels, and fine burrs.... I will get this figured out eventually.

robo hippy

I envy you getting a chat with Stuart. Have been thinking about the mystery of what makes NRS work so nicely, but need sharpening more often. Wondering if, microscopically, the burr has sharper, cleaner, but weaker physical structure.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Thompson

Just got my negative rake scraper from Doug Thompson. The angles are about the same as Jaimie's one... So far, I', not too impressed... On the outside I can get a better surface with my Ellsworth gouge, sheer scraping. And the inside nothing beats a bowl gouge. Paid a good penny for, it, so I will keep trying it.
Have to try it on some boxes... Jaimie, would like to see a video of your friend sharpening it... Have not done the top yet...
Aloha from Maui

 

[john lucas]

The reason some (including me) get better shear scrapes with the bowl gouge has to do with the wing sharpening angle. I have one gouge that is a U shape. When sharpened on the Wolverine jig at my usual angle the tip has a sharpening angle of about 55 degrees. The wings however are long very acute. I'll try to measure them to see but I'm guessing 25 degrees. I think this is why I like using the skew as a scraper as well. My skews are usually about 35 degrees. So I think there is more to the negative rake scraper that we need to play with. Just dropping the top of a scraper down so that it is a negative rake I don't think is all of the story in terms of getting the best out of this tool. I think what we call the included angle has to be considered. Several have said that an included angle of less than 90 degrees gives a better burr and I agree. I just haven't have time to grind a couple of pieces of steel that are identical to different included angles to properly judge.
Most of my time in the last year has been spent learning to cut cleaner with bevel rubbing cuts. That and learning to sharpen to a sharper edge. Doing this I rarely use a scraper any more so they haven't been my priority. I do shear scrape that off corner of my mirrors with the bowl gouge and occasionally an area on the body itself that needs to be cleaned up. That's part of why I've been experimenting with my old U shaped gouge that has the thin wings. I find that on my V shaped gouge the wings don't grind as acute. That's good for roughing out bowls because the wings hold an edge longer but not as good if you want to do a really clean cut using a pull cut or when shear scraping. Much more experimenting is needed.

 

[odie]

Just wondering.......Is anyone in this discussion using raised burrs on their NRS's.....?

 

[hockenbery]

John,
Your point about gouge angles is overlooked by so many.
With any side ground gouge you have the changing angles

With the Ellsworth grind the tip is about 60 degrees, the wing in the 25-30 degrees and the sweat spot about 45 degrees.
This sharp angle of the wing makes the pull cut with the side ground gouge Similar in geometry to using a skew with the point down.

Another geometry is the leading angle of the leading edge of the wing. Which is about 45-50 degrees.
This angle makes the back cut that Jimmy Clewes popularized as a finish cut work so well on square turnings.
Another leading edge cut is the flute up shear cut.

The shear scrape on the outside of a bowl gives about as clean a surface as you can get.

We still need a few other tools but the side ground gouge does it all on bowls and hollow forms.

 

[Josh Stevens]

I use the burr of the grinder but when I try to burnish? a hook (like with a carbide rod) I find it leaves a more torn surface.
One thing that I've found with NRS is that they leave a more torn surface in soft woods when compared to a regular scraper but on dense timbers (like some aussie burls) and into end grain they leave a better surface and a more controlled cut. That's what I find anyway.

Josh

 

[john lucas]

One of the experiments I do is when cleaning up my glue blocks. I use square glue blocks made of pine to turn my hand mirrors. When I finish the turning I break the CA glue bond with a mallet and then clean up and flatten the glue block to get ready for the next mirror. when I'm doing the clean up I've been using different tools to see what leaves the cleanest finish. Pine is particulalry sensitive to scraping of any sort so it's a good experiment. As Josh mentioned I have tried raising the burr different ways on my various scrapers. I find the metal or possibly the hardness of the metal has a lot to do with it. I can raise a better cutting burr on some tools using a steel to raise the burr. On others straight off the grinder is as good or better. I haven't tried raising a burr on my gouges. Not sure how I would do it. As I mentioned this morning so far the best surface is with my U shaped flute bowl gouge with the very acute wing grind. The Hunter Osprey leaves a better surface using a push cut but then it's difficult to really keep the surface flat which is critical for my glue joints. So far the cleanest cuts by far are bevel rubbing cuts with various tools. I have yet to find a scraper that will leave a surface like that but then I also haven't used a lot of really hard exotics that might change my mind. Any body got any Ivory they want to send me for experimentation.

 

[robo hippy]

I do prefer a shear scrape to a scrape for a finish cut on just about everything. Primary reason is the high shear angle is better at gently lifting the fibers as they are cut compared to a scraping cut which pulls, and needs the other fibers around it for support for a cleaner cut. This is probably why end grain cuts cleaner with scrapers than flat grain. A negative rake scraper is still a scraping cut so there is still some very minimal tear out going on. The point is that we can get tear out to minimal levels which easily sand out with the NRS, but not totally get rid of it. Same is true with any tool on bowl grain orientation. You may not be able to see it, but you can feel it with your hand if you rub in forward and reverse on the bowls, and yes, I am peculiar/particular in this respect. Watched a Dale Larson demo, and after examining his 'no tear out' bowl, I could feel a teeny tiny bit. It is more difficult to shear scrape the inside of a bowl. I don't know if bevel angles are critical to fine shear scraping. I use my standard 70 degree bevel scrapers on my bowls, and prefer the 600 or 1000 grit burrs.

I have burnished a burr on my 30 and 35 degree NRS's, and don't really know that it made any difference. My burnishing may be a contributing factor. There is an art to burnishing burrs, and I don't have a carbide burnishing tool, just the standard card scraper burnishing tools. I know the key is with a 70 degree bevel, you want your burnisher at 75 degrees or so, and very minimal pressure is needed to turn the burr, and yes, even on HSS. I have one myrtle plate that I will have in Atlanta that gave me fits, and I could only get a clean surface on the inside with a NRS. Prior to burnishing, the bevels need to be honed, and even with the 1000 grit wheel, I can feel a burr. (a spoon carving friend who does his stuff with an 'off the tool' finish was complaining about the burr on his carving knives which I couldn't feel, and I wasn't using my guitar string fingers either). I have burnished the burr down, then back up, which is common on card scrapers, and don't think I got nearly as good of an edge as I did with the fresh from the grinder burr. Again here, the wheel you use makes a big difference, finer wheel = finer burr, and CBN is far better than standard wheels. I haven't used the upside down sharpened burr very much. Critical to getting the clean surface was very very light pressure, and fresh edge about every 5 seconds. That is one point that Stuart makes. You can still feel a burr, and it will cut, but it leaves a rougher surface. Amazing what a fresh edge will accomplish. Some times I think Stuart tolerates me because I ask questions that no one else asks...

In my chat with Tom, he has done some micro photography on edges, and if I can, I would like to get him to do that on the 600 and 1000 grit burrs.

Still so much to discover.

Emilliano, I will check out Doug's NRS's at the Symposium, as I haven't seen them yet. Before sharpening, if the grinds are not the same on both sides, I prefer to remove the old burr first, which for me is either honing, or taking a hand burnishing tool to them to turn the burr down, then sharpen a fresh one onto it. Hard wood will cut cleaner than soft wood, and the burr is so tiny that it really doesn't cut long.

robo hippy

 

[John K Jordan]

...I have burnished a burr on my 30 and 35 degree NRS's, and don't really know that it made any difference. My burnishing may be a contributing factor. There is an art to burnishing burrs...

I am in the burnishing camp. I think it is more durable and cuts smoother, especially on hard exotics. Look at a grinder burr under a microscope then look again after one cut.

As Reed said, it doesn't really take much burnishing. I use a carbide burnishing rod with a beautiful rosewood handle but the back of a gouge or edge of a skew works just as well.

JKJ

 

[odie]

I use the burr of the grinder but when I try to burnish? a hook (like with a carbide rod) I find it leaves a more torn surface.
One thing that I've found with NRS is that they leave a more torn surface in soft woods when compared to a regular scraper but on dense timbers (like some aussie burls) and into end grain they leave a better surface and a more controlled cut. That's what I find anyway.

Josh

I've found exactly the opposite, Josh.......

I'm burnishing with a Veritas, and it does take some practice to get the burr right......but, there is no comparison to the fineness of the cut possible with a raised burr. As well, it also takes some practice to know how to present, and finesse the tool through the cut. Different species and individual pieces of wood require a revised technique to adapt accordingly.

ko

 

[Dave Mueller]

I have not seen much discussion about raising the burr with a burnishing tool rather than a grinder. As a flat woodworker, I got pretty good at raising burrs on card scrapers. Therefore, I have been using a burnishing tool on my NRS for several years and find I can control the size of the burr very well by using different pressures and numbers of strokes. I do hone off the burr from the grinder first and then make one or two light passes with a burnishing tool. Stuart Batty uses a grinder to raise the burr on his NRS, and we have had a couple of discussions about the relative merit of the two methods, but he still uses the grinder.

I believe that the burr from a burnisher is less jagged and will last longer, but can't prove it with photomicrographs. Also, when the burr is gone, I can hone the bevel and raise another burr a couple of times without grinding, which saves some tool steel. It would be interesting for someone else to do a comparison to see if I'm just off in the weeds with my comments.

 

[robo hippy]

Oh yea, forgot, but remembered after I drove off for some things to do... I have tried shear scraping with a NRS, and it isn't any better than a standard grinder.

We need a play date for the NRS...

robo hippy

 

[Josh Stevens]

I've found exactly the opposite, Josh.......

I'm burnishing with a Veritas, and it does take some practice to get the burr right......but, there is no comparison to the fineness of the cut possible with a raised burr. As well, it also takes some practice to know how to present, and finesse the tool through the cut. Different species and individual pieces of wood require a revised technique to adapt accordingly.

ko

I find a burnished burr on a regular scraper did a fantastic job but not on an NRS (just in case my comment wasn't clear) but I only tried it once and it could have been the timber or the angle.
When I tried it on the NRS I held the carbide rod a couple of degrees more than the grinding angle but it sounds like it's worth trying again.
Thanks

Josh

 

[Jamie Straw]

Just got my negative rake scraper from Doug Thompson. The angles are about the same as Jaimie's one... So far, I', not too impressed... On the outside I can get a better surface with my Ellsworth gouge, sheer scraping. And the inside nothing beats a bowl gouge. Paid a good penny for, it, so I will keep trying it.
Have to try it on some boxes... Jaimie, would like to see a video of your friend sharpening it... Have not done the top yet...
Aloha from Maui

He's quite camera/attention shy, but I keep reminding him of his promise. I'll start taking the video camera and tri-pod to the meetings, so when he arrives with the grinder, he can't get away. He insists that once you get the muscle memory, and you have the platform set, you can do it with your eyes closed. I used mine, freshly sharpened at his shop, on a hard-rock maple box last week, and the wood just flew off in long curls. It was fun!
PS: I'm not surprised you get equal or better results on bowls with other well-practiced methods. I get the impression they are most useful on end grain (e.g., boxes), perhaps difficult grain on bowl insides (that's a pure guess).

 

[Jamie Straw]

Just wondering.......Is anyone in this discussion using raised burrs on their NRS's.....?

It has to be sharpened so frequently, and comes off the grinder working so well, seems like burnishing would be wasted. I burnish my regular scrapers, but not the NRSs.

 

[Jamie Straw]

The reason some (including me) get better shear scrapes with the bowl gouge has to do with the wing sharpening angle. I have one gouge that is a U shape. When sharpened on the Wolverine jig at my usual angle the tip has a sharpening angle of about 55 degrees. The wings however are long very acute. I'll try to measure them to see but I'm guessing 25 degrees.[Snip]

John, when you get that measurement, would you be willing to also post a drawing of what you're describing? I've not been able to figure out, mental image-wise, the thing about nose angles and wing angles. Reading these descriptions, it seems it would be of benefit to have more than one grind for the 2 regular bowl gouges in my arsenal (doesn't count the bottom-feeders).

 

[Jamie Straw]

[Snip]With the Ellsworth grind the tip is about 60 degrees, the wing in the 25-30 degrees and the sweat spot about 45 degrees.
This sharp angle of the wing makes the pull cut with the side ground gouge Similar in geometry to using a skew with the point down. [Snip] We still need a few other tools but the side ground gouge does it all on bowls and hollow forms.

In one of our recent demos, the member made note of the fact that he used the Ellsworth grind for most of his turning. Sure would simplify things. Where do I sign up?

 

[Jamie Straw]

One of the experiments I do is when cleaning up my glue blocks. I use square glue blocks made of pine to turn my hand mirrors. When I finish the turning I break the CA glue bond with a mallet and then clean up and flatten the glue block to get ready for the next mirror. when I'm doing the clean up I've been using different tools to see what leaves the cleanest finish. Pine is particulalry sensitive to scraping of any sort so it's a good experiment. As Josh mentioned I have tried raising the burr different ways on my various scrapers. I find the metal or possibly the hardness of the metal has a lot to do with it. I can raise a better cutting burr on some tools using a steel to raise the burr. On others straight off the grinder is as good or better. I haven't tried raising a burr on my gouges. Not sure how I would do it. As I mentioned this morning so far the best surface is with my U shaped flute bowl gouge with the very acute wing grind. The Hunter Osprey leaves a better surface using a push cut but then it's difficult to really keep the surface flat which is critical for my glue joints. So far the cleanest cuts by far are bevel rubbing cuts with various tools. I have yet to find a scraper that will leave a surface like that but then I also haven't used a lot of really hard exotics that might change my mind. Any body got any Ivory they want to send me for experimentation.

I've been under the impression that the burr from the grinder on a regular scraper is more aggressive, but less uniform -- perhaps more ragged under magnification. I had my first scraper catch the other day when I sharpened the scraper, but did not remove the burr and re-establish with the Veritas burnisher. I'm sure the machine-burr wasn't the only cause but it certainly felt more aggressive even before the catch. Re: burrs on gouges -- another impression (correct me if it's wrong) that it's best to remove any burr that's left from the grinding (smoothing from the flute). So much to learn!

 

[robo hippy]

Burrs can vary a lot depending on how you form them. Standard grinding wheels, kind of coarse, not very durable. 80 and 180 CBN wheels can vary from very heavy duty and strong to very light and sharp, the difference being in weather you really push into the wheel or if you just kiss the face. Honed burrs can vary a lot too, depending if you hone with a 220 grit card or a 1000 grit card, again one being a bit heavier the other a bit lighter. Burnishing the same, you can really crank on it, or you can just kiss it. Then there is the upside down grind, which pulls off a very light and sharp burr, but weak. I figure the 600 and 1000 grit CBN wheels are pretty much honing the burr though instead of going across (which to me is almost the same as burnishing) you go down the bevel.

The only time I found it necessary to remove the burrs from gouges is when I used them for shear scraping. Not an issue since all of my shear scraping is done with scrapers, and they work better with burrs.

The change in the bevel angle or include angle or what ever on gouges from nose to wing is one I have to think on. With platform sharpening, I think I roll my gouges more than you do when you use a jig, but it has been many years. I may have to borrow some one's jig ground gouge and take it for a test drive... Some could be in the 25 to 30 degree range. I think mine are more blunt.

Oh, another play date thing to do....

robo hippy

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Maui

Super interesting thread here... Robby Hippie, a friend of mine in Colorado, Adam Luna, loves all the Thompson tools. Because of him I'm giving them a try. Doug does not advertise his NRS on his web site, but when I called him he told me no problem, I can make one for you. Great customer service!!
Today I used my NRS inside a deep natural edge Koa bowl. I was very pleased... On the outside I sheer scrape with my trusty Ellsworth gouge, nothing beats that... I believe I saved a lot of sanding time with it today.... That was my original idea, the reason why I justified another tool, lol I'm going to attached a picture of it. Just bought the Bob Stocksdale book, you can see his inspiration... Tomorrow I will sand and finish,,,