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Non-wandering bit

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What is the best bit to use in a Jacob's chuck to avoid "wandering" as it enters the wood? I have the two sizes of stubbies Ruth Niles sells for her stopper mandrel, but I need a couple of other sizes and I don't know what search string to use at Amazon. Thanks.
 

john lucas

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your best bet is too start the hole with a starter bit. These are very short very stiff bits that you can find at any machinist supply house. Grizzly has them. If you don't want to do a 2 step hole (use the starter bit to start and then change to the correct size) then a brad point bit should start pretty accurately for most woodworking purposes.
 

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I use starter bits often. One of the techniques I've carried over from metal lathe work.
 
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The others have given you the answer-they are also called spotting drills or centering bits. You can find a small set of 5 at Harbor Freight. Another non-wandering bit is a "D" bit referring to the shape of the tip. It's kind of a specialty thing though. Also try to make a small angled depression in the workpiece and that should help your bit find center ( you probably already know that).
 
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What is the best bit to use in a Jacob's chuck to avoid "wandering" as it enters the wood? I have the two sizes of stubbies Ruth Niles sells for her stopper mandrel, but I need a couple of other sizes and I don't know what search string to use at Amazon. Thanks.

Your search string “ Center drill bits” will bring these short drill bits up, specifically designed to start a opening exactly in the center, used for both the live center and to start drilling holes, they come in several sizes.

Center Drill Bitscenter drill bits.jpg
 
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Thanks everyone! I'll get a set of the starter bits, or the sizes I need the most right now. Brad-point bit was, unfortunately, no help at all. My gold DeWalt bits did better, but are too long. Now I have another question: what is the 135-degree split-point screw machine length stubby for? It looks quite a bit like Ruth's bits. Pricey darned things, for the HSS Forney models anywaze.
 

Mark Hepburn

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Jamie, you can also strike a starter hole with a steel scratch awl. I use one to mark centers for spindle blanks. A small hole will accept a brad point bit and prevent wandering.
 
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Unfortunately, all drilled holes wander a bit. Wood is not a uniform material--as you drill, you go through soft bits and hard bits. The drill bit will vibrate a bit (there's a theme here...). One flute may be a bit sharper than the other, and bounce things around, making your hole a bit triangular.

Shorter bits are stiffer than longer bits (by quite a bit), so machinists generally use the shortest drill bit that will do the job.

For deep hole drilling, a common solution is a gun drill, rather than a twist drill. Single flute and fluid flow (for woodworkers, that would be compressed air) to get rid of the chips.

On a more expensive (and larger) scale, oil drilling can be steered--either forcing the drill to go straight, or more usually, turning around corners. But that technology, so far, has not been applied to woodworking (that I know of).

More seriously: A starter hole, or a series of starter holes--regardless of whether you have twist drill or brad point. For brad-point, a punched starter hole is frequently good enough. For twist drills, use a center drill sufficient to clear the flat spot at the center of the twist drill. Back off the bit frequently to blow chips out (I'm assuming you're drilling on the lathe or a drill press).
 

john lucas

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I should have said that the best way is to use the toe of the skew to make a very small depression. Then most drills will at least start on center. They will likely wander and be off slightly as you go deeper. Anytime you start a twist drill it will almost always wander at the beginning due to the different hardness of the grain of the wood. A starter drill doesn't wander but if you only drill a tiny starter divot it's the same as using the skew. Since they are so stiff and you can get them in the size of your drill you can drill a but deeper before using the full length drill. I find most of the time a small hole with the skew followed by a brad point bit will give me a well centered and straight hole for an inch or so anyway.
 
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I find it interesting to read that I'm not the only one who struggles with this. I made a 1/8" awl the other day, and I COULD NOT get the hole straight in the handle no matter how I tried. I ended up drilling the hole the best I could, then using the drill bit in the drill chuck and rotating it in the headstock to find the other end of the drill axis. Then I trued up the handle.
 
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I got a set of drill bits that were on sale at Woodcraft. The set includes standard tip bits and brad point bits. I also got a small set of brad point bits several years ago. I use them for wood as the point starts the bit and helps keep it going in the right direction. An awl or punch to dimple the wood is a good idea. Used to do that with sheet metal.
Edit: The end of the brad point bit is cupped slightly so the outer edge of the bit starts the cut, following the point. Then the main part of the bit takes over.
 

john lucas

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Small bits are impossible to drill straight in wood. They wonder badly. I bought a small gun drill which is supposed to drill straight. It did, twice. Broke it on the 3rd try. apparently they are very brittle.
 
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What is the best bit to use in a Jacob's chuck to avoid "wandering" as it enters the wood? I have the two sizes of stubbies Ruth Niles sells for her stopper mandrel, but I need a couple of other sizes and I don't know what search string to use at Amazon. Thanks.

Well there are two strategies :
First for woodworking
In woodworking the Forstner bit and the Brad-Point are used to get around the two main problems of drift in a drill bit.
For both types; The tip has a very small point that sets the drill and prevents it from wandering - that's problem one sorted. The second is addressed by sharp wing tip cutting edges on the diameter that slice through the different veins of soft and dense wood and prevent the drill from following the path of least resistance down the soft parts of wood.

So go and spend the money on Brad-Point and Forstner bits and learn to use a hand held mini grinder ( like a dremel) and file to sharpen then.

Second borrows from machine tool work
Use a CENTER DRILL That's what it's called. In machine tool work it's used to start a hole because it doesn't wander due to stiffness and a tiny grind at the point. The Web of a conventional drill has substantial non cutting area at the point that has to literally push the metal aside to get it out where the edges of the flutes can take it up. There are Split Grind drills that reduce this and are good for work hardening metals. But they wear fast and hand sharpening them is difficult.

The Center Drill gets you started. BUT - - and it is a huge honking whale of a BUT - - It doesn't prevent the drill from wandering once the hole is started. The veins of soft wood will draw the drill into them while at the same time the harder veins of wood will deflect your drill; both working together to defeat any effort at precision in holes of appreciable depth ( more than 4 or 5 times the diameter of the drill)

NET NET: Use the tools designed for the job: Brad-Point & Forstner for wood. You are speaking with an old Machine Tool guy who had a box load of Metal working cutting tools and had converted a slew of my drills to Brad-Point just because of the efficiency of that particular grind. I use a dremel and those little abrasive cut off saws for the small drills and a grinding wheel with a sharp edge for anything larger than 3/8"
 
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Center drills...you can get into some arguments over those.

When I was interviewing guys for machinist jobs one of the questions asked was how you made made an accurate location hole so the follow on drill couldn't wander. The answers were about 50-50 between a center drill and a spotting drill. Only one is the correct answer, even though you still find votech instructors teaching the wrong drill.

A screw machine drill might be a good choice for wood. They're short because screw machines don't have room for long drills and the 135 degree split point tends not to wander like 118 degree conventional points.
 
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Center drills...you can get into some arguments over those.

When I was interviewing guys for machinist jobs one of the questions asked was how you made made an accurate location hole so the follow on drill couldn't wander. The answers were about 50-50 between a center drill and a spotting drill. Only one is the correct answer, even though you still find votech instructors teaching the wrong drill.
It would be a simple matter to drill two holes, one with each drill bit, and see which one is more accurate, and to that matter if either or both of them are within specs.

This assumes that the person could actually tell which performed better.
 
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Well, I'm finding that any of my bits (stubbies from Ruth, brad-point or "regular") are wandering when the divot for the start isn't centered. Before you jump on this, please read the rest. Here are the steps I'm going through for these items that need to be chucked and drilled:
  1. Round a 6" long piece between centers, make a tenon on one end (usually the tailstock end) with a good shoulder and what seems long enough. Example: current piece on lathe is oak that's at least 100 years old, very tight grained and dry. Tenon is .6" long, well-shaped tenon ~.7" diameter.
  2. Place tenon in Talon chuck with spigot jaws, not tightened yet. Bring up tailstock and insert nose of live center in the existing divot from original turning
  3. Use tailstock to position stock snuggly against jaws, tighten chuck
  4. Remove tailstock and get ready to drill
Problem is, the stock moves at Step #4 -- I back off the tailstock, and the end drops. How far? Mmmmm, 1mm or so. I've tried using a skew point to get a better centered divot, but the divot is still off center. If I were simply going to turn the stock without drilling it, it might not matter, but trying to get a good hole drilled when the stock isn't straight is frustrating. Any of the aforementioned bits flex enough to follow that deviation from straight out the Jacob's chuck, I can see them move as they enter the hole. I have had a similar problem on my Jet lathe, so the problem seems to lie either in my chuck, or in some mental lapse on my part.
 
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It would be a simple matter to drill two holes, one with each drill bit, and see which one is more accurate, and to that matter if either or both of them are within specs.

This assumes that the person could actually tell which performed better.

The accuracy issue is secondary.

The problem is using a fragile drill tip like on a center drill. Google on "methods of removing a broken center drill tip". Then try "methods of removing a broken spotting drill tip". Should show a significant difference in hits, if any at all about spotting drill tips because they aren't a problem.

Removing a broken center drill tip can be a messy operation, like on an expensive part where cosmetic issues are important. Sometimes you can't do it.

Most center drills are double ended for the very reason that you have another end after one tip breaks off.

The downside of spotting drills is they're expensive in comparison to center drills.
 

Mark Hepburn

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Well, I'm finding that any of my bits (stubbies from Ruth, brad-point or "regular") are wandering when the divot for the start isn't centered. Before you jump on this, please read the rest. Here are the steps I'm going through for these items that need to be chucked and drilled:
  1. Round a 6" long piece between centers, make a tenon on one end (usually the tailstock end) with a good shoulder and what seems long enough. Example: current piece on lathe is oak that's at least 100 years old, very tight grained and dry. Tenon is .6" long, well-shaped tenon ~.7" diameter.
  2. Place tenon in Talon chuck with spigot jaws, not tightened yet. Bring up tailstock and insert nose of live center in the existing divot from original turning
  3. Use tailstock to position stock snuggly against jaws, tighten chuck
  4. Remove tailstock and get ready to drill
Problem is, the stock moves at Step #4 -- I back off the tailstock, and the end drops. How far? Mmmmm, 1mm or so. I've tried using a skew point to get a better centered divot, but the divot is still off center. If I were simply going to turn the stock without drilling it, it might not matter, but trying to get a good hole drilled when the stock isn't straight is frustrating. Any of the aforementioned bits flex enough to follow that deviation from straight out the Jacob's chuck, I can see them move as they enter the hole. I have had a similar problem on my Jet lathe, so the problem seems to lie either in my chuck, or in some mental lapse on my part.

I have the same problem, and the only answer I have for this is that I have a somewhat different routine. I know this probably isn't the more established way or the generally accepted way but it works for me (mostly).

Say I'm turning a tool handle. I'll rough turn it between centers somewhat round and put a tenon on one end. Flip it and mount in a chuck and set the drill bit in the dimple in the tailstock end. Tighten the chuck, drill the depth I want and then install a live tail center - usually the Robust center - and then turn the piece.

The reason I prefer this is that it accounts for the wood wandering and takes it out of the equation.

I imagine there are situations in which this isn't a workable solution though.
 
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I turn reel inserts by rounding off the square piece. Then I put the roughed insert in the chuck and drill with the bit in the tailstock. Then I put the insert on a mandrel, depending on the size of the hole drilled. Then I turn to final dimensions. Reel seats are usually about 4 inches long.
 
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Well, I'm finding that any of my bits (stubbies from Ruth, brad-point or "regular") are wandering when the divot for the start isn't centered. Before you jump on this, please read the rest. Here are the steps I'm going through for these items that need to be chucked and drilled:
  1. Round a 6" long piece between centers, make a tenon on one end (usually the tailstock end) with a good shoulder and what seems long enough. Example: current piece on lathe is oak that's at least 100 years old, very tight grained and dry. Tenon is .6" long, well-shaped tenon ~.7" diameter.
  2. Place tenon in Talon chuck with spigot jaws, not tightened yet. Bring up tailstock and insert nose of live center in the existing divot from original turning
  3. Use tailstock to position stock snuggly against jaws, tighten chuck
  4. Remove tailstock and get ready to drill
Problem is, the stock moves at Step #4 -- I back off the tailstock, and the end drops. How far? Mmmmm, 1mm or so. I've tried using a skew point to get a better centered divot, but the divot is still off center. If I were simply going to turn the stock without drilling it, it might not matter, but trying to get a good hole drilled when the stock isn't straight is frustrating. Any of the aforementioned bits flex enough to follow that deviation from straight out the Jacob's chuck, I can see them move as they enter the hole. I have had a similar problem on my Jet lathe, so the problem seems to lie either in my chuck, or in some mental lapse on my part.

This should be fairly easy to diagnose. Try a few things.

After the piece drops 1mm, turn the spindle by hand 180 degrees. Is the divot now up 1mm or still down?

Do you have centers for both tailstock and headstock? Are they in perfect alignment tip to tip when you slide the tailstock up to the headstock.

Try removing the live center and re-inserting it into the tailstock socket 180 degrees from original position to verify divot is still low.
 
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methods of removing a broken center drill tip
I've broken Center drills by leaning on them, while working steel, but I don't think it is reasonably possible in wood. Love to see it done though. You went through a formal apprenticeship: yes? I was all set to get in the General Electric program and a truck driver beat me out because he could read a micrometer and was union. Imagine my frustration.


Problem is, the stock moves at Step #4 -- I back off the tailstock, and the end drops.
Tail stocks on wood lathes do present that issue, Dunno how to fix it. Each lathe will have it's possibilities.

But - - - You are on the right track, I think, turning the starting hole. Make it a wider angle than the drill point and a little bigger than the drill diameter. This will let the center of the drill find the center of your turned starting hole easier even if the tailstock is out of position a little.
 
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Of course using the center drill in wood is good because of its thickness against the short length and it is not going to move or bend like a longer twist drill.

If one thinks that the thin small point on a brad point is going to keep the brill bit from wandering, think again, that long drill bit will do exactly what any twist drill bit will do, that is the point will go into the softer wood between the harder wood (early wood late wood) and the bit will be wobbling if that soft wood are is not exactly at center.

Brad point drill bit.jpg

Center drill bit and spotting drill bit shown below
Center drill.jpg spotting drill.jpg
Of corse again this is wood drilling, not metal, I would be hard pressed to break the thin end of a center drill bit while drilling wood, yes easily done by ham-fisted metal workers.

The other problem that crops up with trying to get an exact starting hole is that even if the drill bid like the center drill can’t wander, the wood will often then start moving off center, more so with a spotting drill bit IMO than with the center drill, as the center drill with it;s small tip will be easier to start into the wood without it pushing the wood over and when the small end is in the wood it will help to keep it (the wood) from wandering.
 
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Mark Hepburn

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Leo,

This is why I find it preferable to drill the hole first, and after establishing that then do the turning.

The wood movement then is Not an issue, and if there are other factors to come into play, so far I haven't experienced them. But then I haven't done a tremendous amount of turning either.

And I also have to admit that the most precise work I've done in this area is handles for turning tools
 

Mark Hepburn

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This is a total wild guess and maybe a dumb idea on top of that. But that has never stopped me on this form before so here goes:

Given that you have varying densities of wood that you're trying to drill into with end grain, would it be possible perhaps to soak the area to be drilled liberally with some CA prior to drilling, and therefore uniformly harden the entire area?

Ready for derision and sneering

:-D
 
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This is a total wild guess and maybe a dumb idea on top of that. But that has never stopped me on this form before so here goes:

Given that you have varying densities of wood that you're trying to drill into with end grain, would it be possible perhaps to soak the area to be drilled liberally with some CA prior to drilling, and therefore uniformly harden the entire area?

Ready for derision and sneering

:-D
Mark If you could get the CA to penetrate the wood for half an inch or better it might well help to keep the wood from moving off center, at one sixteens of an inch I doubt the will do anything, you would have a better result if you use a steady rest to keep the handle wood steady IMO.

But you still will have the problem of a twist drill bit from trying to follow the grain moving over into the softer early growth wood, and as the twist drill can/will cut on its side of the flutes, it is able do that.
 
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Well, I'm finding that any of my bits (stubbies from Ruth, brad-point or "regular") are wandering when the divot for the start isn't centered. Before you jump on this, please read the rest. Here are the steps I'm going through for these items that need to be chucked and drilled:
  1. Round a 6" long piece between centers, make a tenon on one end (usually the tailstock end) with a good shoulder and what seems long enough. Example: current piece on lathe is oak that's at least 100 years old, very tight grained and dry. Tenon is .6" long, well-shaped tenon ~.7" diameter.
  2. Place tenon in Talon chuck with spigot jaws, not tightened yet. Bring up tailstock and insert nose of live center in the existing divot from original turning
  3. Use tailstock to position stock snuggly against jaws, tighten chuck
  4. Remove tailstock and get ready to drill
Problem is, the stock moves at Step #4 -- I back off the tailstock, and the end drops. How far? Mmmmm, 1mm or so. I've tried using a skew point to get a better centered divot, but the divot is still off center. If I were simply going to turn the stock without drilling it, it might not matter, but trying to get a good hole drilled when the stock isn't straight is frustrating. Any of the aforementioned bits flex enough to follow that deviation from straight out the Jacob's chuck, I can see them move as they enter the hole. I have had a similar problem on my Jet lathe, so the problem seems to lie either in my chuck, or in some mental lapse on my part.

For step 1: I'm assuming you have a nice square shoulder in the tenon/stock?

For step 3: You're visually checking that the nice square shoulder is snug in the chuck jaws?

If that's the case, then, it sounds like the wood is not straight, actually because of compression while turning between centers. You're getting a tiny bit of bending/buckling in the wood.

As an experiment: If your live center has an adjustable point, push the point in, so your live center is more like a cup center (no divot). If it doesn't, use a sacrificial jam piece of wood between the old oak and the live center while you're rounding and tenoning. Then, after you chuck and seat, make a divot.

Last but not least: Check the alignment of your tailstock. Make sure the point in the drive center lines up nicely with the live center with quill fully out, then, shorten the quill a bit, manually push the tail stock closer, repeat, etc.to learn which way to shove tailstock for best alignment.

Best,

Hy
 
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One other possible workflow (assumes your stock fits the pin jaws without a tenon):
  1. Stick stock (square or rectangular) in pin jaws. Support with tail stock, and turn roughly round. Turn a tenon on the tailstock side. Note that you don't need a lot of pressure from the tailstock if your work is held by chuck jaws!
  2. Reverse stock into the pin jaws. Your square end is now towards the tailstock, and un-marked. Divot and drill.
Assuming your stock is too large to fit in pin jaw initially: Pain-in-the-butt procedure, but will result in straight-enough piece:
  1. Switch from pin jaw to #2 or #3 (or whichever jaw). Insert non-round stock. Support with tailstock/live center, turn round and put tenon in
  2. Switch from #2 jaws to pin jaws.
  3. See step 2 from the first workflow.
Hy
 

RichColvin

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Sounds like you need some form of steady rest to hold the piece opposite the chuck.
 
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Jamie, I think that the spigot jaws are the problem. And the length of your work piece.
Joe
I've had the same problem with the #2 jaws, but still the chuck could contribute I suppose. As far as length of work piece, if I can't turn a 6" spindle, life's not good. Shouldn't need a steady-rest for that!:mad:
 
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One other possible workflow (assumes your stock fits the pin jaws without a tenon):
  1. Stick stock (square or rectangular) in pin jaws. Support with tail stock, and turn roughly round. Turn a tenon on the tailstock side. Note that you don't need a lot of pressure from the tailstock if your work is held by chuck jaws!
  2. Reverse stock into the pin jaws. Your square end is now towards the tailstock, and un-marked. Divot and drill.
Assuming your stock is too large to fit in pin jaw initially: Pain-in-the-butt procedure, but will result in straight-enough piece:
  1. Switch from pin jaw to #2 or #3 (or whichever jaw). Insert non-round stock. Support with tailstock/live center, turn round and put tenon in
  2. Switch from #2 jaws to pin jaws.
  3. See step 2 from the first workflow.
Hy
I'll try Solution A this weekend, see if it makes a difference. Getting ready for election night at tomorrow's meeting, and trying to take something to show-n-tell. Thanks!
 
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Some of the larger wood tools I make can require a vent hole drilled the entire length
of the tool, some of these tools are up to 24" in length. On occasion I have run into knots
in the wood which will cause a long drill bit to make a change in direction and not go in the
direction intended. The long drill bits can bend quite bit once they hit a hard knot and are driven
off center.
On smaller items drilling a center hole in the wood first and then mounting between centers solves
the problem of trying to get a hole centered and drilled after the piece is turned. When I turn shaving
brushes I always drill the hole first that the brush mounts into, the wood is then mounted between centers
and the profile turned and finish applied.
 
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Wow, there is a TON of info here, thanks! I won't be able to digest it and try various suggestions until Sunday, since our meeting is tomorrow and then I have party gifts to finish on Thursday, Friday and Saturday. Thanks, again, and wish me luck!:cool:
 

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Good luck and happy party gifting!
 
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Jamie I don't know if this will help but. I have made pins and pepper mills and it works better to drill the hole and then mount the piece between centers then shape the piece to the hole. It's simpler than it sounds, I have cones that will fit on the drive and cones to fit on the live tail piece.
 
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