Raygear Face Shield and Woodturning PPE

Discussion in 'Woodturning Health & Safety' started by Rob Wallace, Sep 5, 2014.

  1. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Really?

    Geez, Bill, I know that he and I have had our disagreements on this board but . . .

    Are you really suggesting that we "Launch" Odie?
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2014
  2. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    No need to go all NASA on me. Think of it more like the greatest theme park ride ever. And, ... no chickens will be involved in the test. I'm sure that Evel Knievel would have "jumped" on this opportunity to advance the safety of woodturning PPE.

    Technically speaking, since the ten mile long test track is perfectly level, it would only be considered a "launch" if the Earth were flat and if Holloman AFB were near enough to the edge to go over the side.
     
  3. Sergio Villa

    Sergio Villa

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    Licia Albanese died aged 105 in August and Magda Olivero died yesterday at 104. They were among the greatest operatic sopranos. Real prime donne, not like the ones that can be seen in various forums...
     
  4. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Huh?
    Care to expand on that a bit, Sergio?
     
  5. odie

    odie

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    When I was younger, I was pretty gutsy, and would probably have taken a ride on a rocket powered sled for the thrill of it. These days, it would probably confirm the reasons why a 65 year old man isn't a good candidate to be an astronaut! :p

    What we have here is nothing but opinions, mine included....and unless a scientific study were available (that would satisfy Bill :D), we have to use our best judgment about what we, as woodturners, might use to increase our safety options. It is my best guess that the headband, seeing as how the riot face shield would be attached to it, will absorb some of the energy of a hit from a piece of wood launched from the lathe. It's also my opinion that a more rigid face shield than the original ones supplied with standard face shields would provide better protection than managing a hit while wearing a face shield that is much more flexible. A riot face shield could be forced back into the face, but I have another opinion that the damage would be less than one that easily flexes. I suppose the pros and cons of those opinions could be argued, but without the real world experiences, or scientific testing, one opinion is as good as another.

    I do agree that the bionic face shield would be a better option than a standard face shield......seeing as how the bottom of the shield is reinforced. Off hand, and considering this......since the pivot point is the same as a standard face shield, it may (or may not) be any better an option than the riot face shield mounted to a standard adjustable headband.

    Just wondering......does anyone need scientific testing to be convinced my modified fielder's face shield might be a better option than anything else being discussed here? (Well, maybe not the suit of armor! Heh,heh,heh!) The problem with the fielder's mask is that I don't use it all the time......only when my intuition tells me the risk is more than usual.

    ooc
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2014
  6. odie

    odie

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    I get it! :D

    ooc
     
  7. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Well, that makes at least two of you. Care to share with those of us who lack a clue?
     
  8. Sergio Villa

    Sergio Villa

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  9. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Two very talented ladies who had long and productive lives and careers.

    What does their passing have to do with this forum or woodturning lathe safety equipment in particular?
     
  10. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Let's see .... here are some possibilities:

    1. We're being compared to two of the greatest opera singers ever ... not likely
    2. The fat lady has sung -- time to end the thread ... nah, they weren't fat
    3. We're a beer and pretzel crowd and need things explained ... very likely. I'll open a cool one and ponder it
     
  11. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Seems what we're looking for is a rig that turners will wear all the time (not just when intuition whispers in one's ear). I don't doubt that a catcher's mask might well work in a lot of situations to protect the face. It won't however, deal with the trauma to the cerebral spine caused by the frontal impact of a weighty chunk of wood moving at speed.

    Interesting that we have had the most likely solution for decades, that being the lathe cage that nobody uses. We wouldn't even need to use it all the time; just when a particular operation tends to place the turner in the kill zone. I could be wrong, but for the rest of the time, something to keep the shavings, dust, and liquids out of your face might be sufficient.

    Hmm, might be a business opportunity here. . .
     
  12. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I don't have a Powermatic lathe, but I have seen the cages installed on them. I haven't seen any major problem with them. They could probably stand a bit of redesign ... maybe even a set of shields for different situations. The best thing about those cages is that the lathe takes all of the abuse that would otherwise pose a danger to us.

    Workers in industry are required to take all sorts of safety training, Even we engineers had to go through that sort of training because we frequently were out in the shop with the production line workers to fine tune things and solve problems. Meanwhile, woodturners get zero safety training unless we actively seek it. Many woodturners take it as a personal affront if somebody suggests adopting any safety practices whatsoever.

    Since the AAW is all about education, I see a very significant need that is only getting passing mention as if not wanting to offend anyone by mentioning the S word (that would be "safety" just in case anybody is wondering).

    I can't remember our club ever having a meeting dedicated to safety training. The closest that we have come to that is bestowing the title of "Safety Officer" to someone who has had to make a trip to the ER because of a woodturning mishap.
     
  13. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    The AAW symposiums have included safety demos the past 3 years at least.
    The AAW has Safety for Woodturners available as free download.
    A hard copy of this book was sent to each chapter.

    Our club has a 5-10 minute safety demonstration before the traditional demonstration.
    Most demonstrations include safety tips related to demo.
    All clubs should do a short safety-tips demo each meeting.

    Al
     
  14. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    A Ticklish Problem

    The AAW has made substantial efforts to promote safety in both methods and equipment. These two threads on faceshields fairly demonstrate that, so far, pretty much nothing available is going to protect a turner in the event of a catastrophic failure of the wood being turned.

    We have several problems here:

    1.How to make the safe-turning message valid and effective while at the same time making it idiot-proof plain that even with all safe procedures in use, turners can be, and have been, killed and seriously injured doing this.

    2. How to promote "partial" solutions (like these current facemasks) even though we know that when chips turn to chunks in the blink of an eye the item promoted won't do what we said it "might" help do.

    3. How to responsibly promote woodturning and expand its acceptance as the pursuit that we on this board know and love when to do so seems to invite people to put themselves in serious harm's way.

    4. With far more readers (guests) than posters (members) on this forum, how should we conduct our discussions on turning safety? Most comments and opinions expressed here are anecdotal rather than backed up with hard scientific evidence. The capacity to lead others astray on this forum is pretty substantial.

    For instance, Odie proposes to do some experimenting with faceshield variations, but to have valid results that readers and forum members can or should rely on, he'd need a fully equipped testing lab, a great deal of spare time, and hundreds of thousands of dollars to conduct that kind of an effort. If he does his limited home-shop experiments and comes back with his honest conclusions, do his results amount to mere opinions that will not stand up to being examined from different points of view? Do not other posters then have a duty to challenge his "results" since other readers might try to implement his recommendation and then get hurt anyway? Does that scenario dissuade him or others from even trying?

    Our opinions here may well be honest and expressed in good faith, but they are, after all, only opinions rather than verified solutions that others can rely and act on. I'm not suggesting that we all have our comments proof-read by a team of lawyers before posting them, but care must be taken when advocating any kind of safety procedure or particular item of equipment. I recently spoke to a turner who approached a major manufacturer about developing a truly effective wearable shield for woodturning. Their response was that while it is a worthwhile effort, the limited potential market for the item would not support the very substantial costs involved in research and development.

    Anyone out there want to be the next "SawStop Guy"?
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2014
  15. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    Mark,
    You make some good points. There is little concrete data. We have test labs for hurricane building codes that shoot 2x4s at windows and window protectors.
    It should be possible to use one of these labs to shoot a 2x4 at some face shielded dummy's. We could use a potato canon if we could measure the velocity.

    The AAW, some clubs and a few symposiums have created policies of shielding the audience and requiring demonstrators to wear face shields.

    Many demonstrators including myself wear face shields while doing demos. This is relatively recent. Al Stirt was one who led by example. Odd as it may seem I was one who wore a face shield in my shop and did not wear one when doing demos. Many others did as I did because we could not be heard wearing a face shield. Al Stirt taught me how to lift the visor to speak in 2005. Also the headset microphones most demo venues have make it easy to be heard with the visor down.
    So we can lead by example.

    If all the beginners see face shields in use by accomplished turners they are going to wear face shields.
    We just need to remind them a fCe shield does not create invincibility against large blocks and high speed.

    Too many people of modest turning ability have lathes capable of turning large pieces at high velocity.
    It is hard to tell people to turn within their skill set. You have to push your skill set to improve.
    Pushing incrementally is much safer than taking leaps.

    Al
     
  16. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    Mark,
    I have seen the saw stop demonstrated about 5 times standing next to the saw.
    So far every test was with a hotdog :) that got a tiny nick
    The demonstrators and the audience never once offered a finger.
     
  17. I once asked a hotdog-holding sales rep who was live-demonstrating a SawStop if buns, sauerkraut, and mustard came with the saw if you bought it as part of the sale. He was not amused. ;)

    Rob

    (BTW - I am very happy with the interest expressed by contributors and readers of this thread....it obviously is an important issue relevant to all woodturners. We will continue to work on it, as well as "face shield policy" for the AAW.)
     
  18. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Or even a half-frozen chicken? :D I know a guy with a radar gun. Although he usually sits at the bottom of my hill on the way into town, I bet I could get him to share it. :D

    Seriously, as I mentioned in response to Odie, the testing parameters on something like this call for some serious engineer/physicist types to be involved due to the complex variables involved. A product may be great in one scenario but utterly fail in the next. I clearly don't know enough to even begin to make a list, let alone design, what should be used in the design, tests, and development.

    What we do know is that what we have now is woefully inadequate to protect turners. It's fine to give warnings, and teach safe practices to reduce the risk, but ultimately it correlates to the weather: "everybody talks about it, but nobody is ever able to do anything about it."
     
  19. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    I believe the inventor actually did that . . . once.
     
  20. Sergio Villa

    Sergio Villa

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    I can guarantee that it works. It was an evening, tired and the last cut. I cannot remember exactly how it happened but I touched the blade while my left little finger, perhaps going after the ripped woo. Laud noise, blade dropped, a small scratch on the finger. That was all.
     

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