Raygear Face Shield and Woodturning PPE

Discussion in 'Woodturning Health & Safety' started by Rob Wallace, Sep 5, 2014.

  1. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I have also seen the SawStop demo several times and it is quite attention getting. The blade is there and then it isn't. Seems like I heard the BANG after the fact. Oscar Meyer didn't even need a Band-Aid and by the time that you realized what happened, the show is already over. At one of the demos, they did serve hot dogs with the usual fixings. One guy said that he didn't need it because he hadn't had a tablesaw accident in 30 years (implying that somehow gave him immunity). Of all the comments that I heard from people at these demos, the most "interesting" was that the person said that they wouldn't get it because it ruined the saw blade. Sergio, since I have an opportunity to hear your perspective, are you unhappy that the blade was trashed? My guess is that since you still have your hand, you were able to reach for your billfold to pay for a new blade.
     
  2. Shawn Pachlhofer

    Shawn Pachlhofer

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    I too have seen the demo a number of times - and once - he used his finger. No bandaid needed, it was barely even noticeable where the blade hit.

    one blade/cartridge combo is far cheaper than an ER copay...and then add in all the "other" expenses for a full-blow ER visit from this type injury - the blade/cartridge combo is peanuts.
     
  3. Sergio Villa

    Sergio Villa

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    When the accident happened I knew that I made a stupid move but everything happened so suddenly that I did not realized I cut myself. One drop of blood and no blade showed me what happened. Sent the brake cartridge to the Saw Stop and in a few days I had a new cartridge with the report from the analysis of the "black box" inside the brake: they were right, I touched the blade on its left side.
    P.S. Removing the blade from the sunk assembly was easy only after I called them.
     
  4. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Points vs Questions

    I posed the questions, Al, not to make points but to attempt to kick the discussion here up a notch or two, and get more input from a wider portion of the people who visit this forum. I think it very important to hear from turners at all levels on how they would approach the issues and how they would like to see the AAW approach them. For instance, do we do a "driver's ed" kind of blood and gore presentation to attempt to scare people into safer methods or, at least, away from known risky behaviors? I don't hold out a lot of optimism for the effort, which is analogous to pushing water up-hill, but I think that current turners at all levels can have valuable input into formulating the approaches. The turner who gets hurt and says "If I'd only known how to avoid that . . ." is evidence of a failure. Whose failure I'm not prepared to specify.

    BTW, with even a smallish tornado's wind able to ram a piece of straw straight through a 12" thick telephone pole, you see any chance of that dummy surviving a 2x4? I suspect that, until personal force fields are invented, anything we come up with in the way of "protective" headgear for turners is bound to fail when it's needed most.
     
  5. Gary Barone

    Gary Barone

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    I have been hit with a face-shield on. lost two back teeth on left side it came out rolled up my arm hit my jaw it would have been allot worse without it on. I have been using a face-shield with safety glasses for about 5 years maybe more. I have seen people without one on giving demos and in wood turning magazines you have to wear something. I don't know what the best shield is? And I don't like to turn when people come to my shop things can go wrong when you least expect it. ( So what is the best face-shield )
     
  6. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    One Source

    http://www.galls.com/max-pro-police-riot-helmet#.VBjntVckSJo

    Thjere are, of course, others. Google "riot gear" and you'll find pages of them. The link is to one that meets the NIJ standards discussed in the thread below and in Lynn's article in the AAW Journal that Al Hockenbery linked to.

    $103 is hardly a heavy price for a significant level of protection. Hell, I spent more than that on my last bowl gouge.
     
  7. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Oops! Maybe not the best helmet to use as an example (check out the two reviews). Apparently, it is a clearance item and available only in 2X size. However, there are plenty other decent models.

    Conservation of energy (in a perfectly elastic closed system) and conservation of momentum (in any closed system) are two laws of classical mechanics that are too significant to be ignored because they tell us something critically important about head mounted PPE -- first some definitions:
    • classical mechanics - in other words Newtonian physics. There is no need to delve into Einstein's relativity or quantum mechanics
    • conservation of energy in a perfectly elastic closed system - energy can't be either created or destroyed (even though we might wonder where it went). An elastic system is basically a frictionless system where mass is conserved (think of a hockey puck that hits your face guard and bounces off as opposed to you eating it).
    • conservation of momentum - momentum (mass multiplied by velocity) cannot be created or destroyed. If you have ever played billiards, you are already aware of it. Think of a straight shot into a corner pocket -- the cue ball strikes the other ball and instantly stops while the other ball takes off at the same speed that the cue ball had before the collision. Any other shot that you make also demonstrates conservation of momentum.

    In the billiards example, we could have three balls in a perfect line and all of the momentum would eventually be transferred to the last one in the line. If it isn't obvious yet, the woodturner's head is the last ball. Things aren't quite as bleak as this characterization might seem or else there would be no reason for choosing a riot helmet over a simple faceshield. I will try to find time tomorrow for more about the how and why of things. BUT, it still is essential to understand that anything that we attach to our head basically becomes a part of our head as far as momentum and energy are concerned. There is no mysterious physics defying property of any head mounted PPE that enables those devices to capture and hold energy. As they say, you can't fool Mother Nature, but she does allow some quid pro quo tradeoffs.

    Let's be more realistic about the way that accidents happen. The nice neat head on condition if far less likely than the recently described situation by Gary Barone. It has been said many times that head mounted PPE is the last line of defense. Unfortunately, it seems to me that too much of the time, it is the only line of defense. At the very least, I believe that the following in the order listed should be part of the way that we protect ourselves:
    1. Securely mount and balance the turning
    2. Use a hard mount guard
    3. Position yourself away from the most dangerous areas in the event that something comes off the lathe.
    4. Wear adequate face, eye, and breathing protection.

    Doing the first three takes a lot of burden off any needed miracles from our headgear.

    Every type of headgear is designed for very specific conditions. None of those exactly match the full range of conditions that we encounter.
     
  8. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    "OOPS" is right, I didn't look so closely before including the link. Thanks, Bill.

    My old physics teacher was right-on with his car wreck comment.

    And this needs to be said again, and AGAIN, AND AGAIN until it becomes "muscle memory" for turners.

    I tried to grab a copy of the photo of Lynn Yamaguchi in the Journal article where she's turning with the lathe cage in place, her riot rig on, and the wood, known to have defects and cracks, wrapped in stretch wrap as she hollows the vessel.

    Every turner needs to ask themself if they're willing to trade their life, their eye-sight or permanent bodily body, and a life of continuing pain for the "convenience" of doing this hobby without maximum protection from injury.

    We may only need the protection once. Don't let it be the time when it's not being used. Calling it the "Kill Zone" is not for a lack of better words.
     
  9. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    Add proper speed to the list too.
     
  10. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Thanks, Al. I'm sure there are some other things that we need to do. I also thought about listening to the sound. Usually, but not always, there will be a sound change if there is a crack or loose piece. We shouldn't ignore a warning sign like that.
     
  11. odie

    odie

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    I have heard this sound on occasion, and it usually sounds like "tick, tick, tick, tick". When you hear that, hit the stop button.....fast!

    Use sight, sound and feel. We also stimulate smell and taste during the act of woodturning, but I don't think these senses are a safety indicator......

    ooc
     
  12. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Sounds

    "Tick-tick-tick" can mean more than a crack.

    There I was, all set to turn this honkin' Sycamore log into a 24" sphere HonkerStage-2.jpg

    when what do my wee ears detect but a tic-tick-TIC as the gouge is working toward the top of the log. Kill switch time and lets take a close look. The search quickly reveals the glint of metal. "Ah," sez I, "a nail. We'll just dig around a bit and pull it out." Several hours later I retrieved the buried treasure, a 10" length of 3/4" steel anchor rod that was bent into a "V' and left in the tree about 20 years ago. "Rats. There goes my 24" globe." But the hunk was displaying really nice spalting and grain so I pressed on and salvaged an 18" piece HonkerStage-5 -1.jpg

    However, forewarned is forearmed, and the hollowing, promising to be an adventure, HonkerStage-4.jpg
    didn't disappoint as not less than 15 post'em nails were carefully removed while removing the guts, each signaling its presence by that telltale "tic".
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2014

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