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Rehoning an edge between trips to the grinder......

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Grant,
In the intro video he does state not to use it but goes on to state that it is for other grinds. Then in the 2nd video, Up Close, he uses the center hole to correct an over grind so each side meets correctly at the tip.
I definitely will talk with Hannes prior to buying it though. In the vid he states for tools up to 3/4". I have his 1" and 1 1/4" bowl gouges(not sure he even offers the 1 1/4" anymore). And it's these 2 gouges that I have his grind on.
 
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Brian: I have not tried calling him. He replied quickly by email when I was interested in his courses, and when I bought the Vector. Once I had paid for it, though, I was unable to get an email reply. This was quite a while ago. I simply gave up on him. (His handles look very good,too, but I'm not interested in dealing with anyone who will not offer after sales support.)

I would be interested if either you or Bill are able to duplicate his free hand grind with this jig. I don't see how it can achieve a convex curve on the wings. The gouge cannot roll in the jig as it does free hand, so the wings take the shape of the wheel, that is, they are convex, as they are will all the other jigs on the market that use a grinding wheel.
 

Bill Boehme

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... I would be interested if either you or Bill are able to duplicate his free hand grind with this jig.

OK, I tried it by just marking the gouge with a Sharpie and turning the wheel by hand and got a nearly perfect match to his freehand grind that he had put on the small bowl gouge that I got from him. I have not used nor sharpened that gouge since he put his grind on it. I have a larger gouge that I have already sharpened just using a normal swept back shape using my Tormek so I can't check that gouge.

... I don't see how it can achieve a convex curve on the wings. The gouge cannot roll in the jig as it does free hand, so the wings take the shape of the wheel, that is, they are convex, as they are will all the other jigs on the market that use a grinding wheel.

That statement confuses me, especially the part about the wings taking the shape of the wheel. First of all, I hope that you know that no sharpening jig, this one included, can control the shape of the grind. The only thing that any sharpening jig controls is the angle that the tool is presented to the grinder -- everything else is up to you. You can ruin the shaped of a tool with any jig just as easily as you can ruin it by freehand grinding -- probably even worse if you hold the tool in one spot and grind away metal.

Also, I need to ask if you are using the right side hole in the base plate when grinding the secondary bevel on the left wing and vice versa? Also, before putting on the secondary bevel, do a normal swept back grind on the tool and then remove the heel to round the bottom of the tool. After you do all that, you will have something that looks like an Ellsworth grind with the heel rounded off. Now, put on the secondary bevel and just barely touch the tool to the grinder because there is very little metal there and it is very easy to overgrind. The secondary bevel should be approximately 1/16 inch or a hair more in width. Unlike honing where the freshened edge really is not a secondary bevel because the angular difference is inconseqauential, in this case the angular difference really is significant enough to make a difference.

If I am not being overly nosey, what benefits are you wanting to achieve by using a Michelsen grind on the tool versus a normal swept back curve? Feel free to tell me that it's none of my business. For me, it is just experimenting with different configurations.
 

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I have a 1/4" bowl gouge with the Michelson grind that I use a lot as a compliment to the Ellsworth grind I use for 90% of my turning.

Mostly as a finishing tool.
For the lip areas of hollow forms.
Neck areas of hollow forms that have a tight curve,
Hollowing balls for the ball in a ball.
inside finish cut on twice turned bowls for the first inch after which I can roll an Ellsworth grind into a finishing shear.
Hollowing goblets
Working a round and inside the foot of a bowl.

I like the way the tool cuts all around the cutting edge when working inside a ball.

With this jig I suspect a lot of people will be using the Michelson as their 90% tool.

Al
 
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Well, my freehand grinding of the Michelsen grind is very lacking. Wasn't happy with the out come. Getting the bevel right all the way to the tip is tough. I would use the varigrind and put the Elsworth grind on first and then work on the secondary bevel and then the tiertiary(sp?) bevel, but the tool steel is too large to fit the varigrind.
 
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I rewatched his DVD on making a hat, the part on sharpening his grind and saw where I was making a mistake. Went back out to the shop and made a few more passes on the grinder and got them right. Not the prettiest but got the small bevel pretty even all the way around. Trick was to start with the tip at the correct angle and roll it. Once I was happy with the tip(used a marker), then roll it all the way to one side with the edge on the wheel and simultaneously glide it up the wheel. Do the other side. Recheck tip(lite touch), and then start the rolling from one side to the other, just not all the way, and work it up the wheel. My bevel on the 3/4" gouge is about 1/8". Cuts like hot knife through butter. I'm still going to get the jig.
Grant, using the jig and getting the "round" look. I'm guessing that instead of round it comes out looking like 3 beveled facets. If that's the case just freehand the area between each bevel by rolling like in the original freehand grind.
 
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Did I lose something or this has become a conversation completely out of subject and therefore useless?
 

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Did I lose something or this has become a conversation completely out of subject and therefore useless?

You aren't missing a thing, Sergio.........

It's more or less how the forum operates......twists and turns with how a conversation might flow......

One thing that relates to the Michelson grind, and the original post, is the realization that the convex bevel just cannot rub anywhere but right next to the cutting edge. This is similarly what is happening with the standard grind with a very thin bevel made by multiple honings.....that is, if the heal of the bevel is held out of contact. I'm thinking it's this similarity you have seen in the past.......does this make any sense at all to you?

ooc
 
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ok, I understand the ...thin...link in the thread. I believe that I have a visual example of what a thin secondary bevel, obtained as I wrote in my previous post (8 inch dry grinder followed by a touch with a larger Tormek wheel) can do.
The goblets in the picture where done with a 1/2 inch spindle gouge sharpened as above and used rubbing the secondary thin bevel. No burr left. The stem goes from 3/16 to about 1/4 in the tallest.
 

Bill Boehme

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Sergio, as Odie said, it is perfectly normal for the topic to evolve just as if you are in a conversation with friends. Hijacking a thread with something completely off topic is another matter, but even then it isn't necessarily something to get upset over and call for the forum police if it wasn't done maliciously. :D
 
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Sergio, as Odie said, it is perfectly normal for the topic to evolve just as if you are in a conversation with friends. Hijacking a thread with something completely off topic is another matter, but even then it isn't necessarily something to get upset over and call for the forum police if it wasn't done maliciously. :D

I was not upset, please! other are the things that do it! I just wanted to express my opinion which is that a thread should try to bring a subject to solution, if possible. Not all subjects are new in a world in which almost all has been already done, but still anything can be improved. Besides I did not intend to police the forum or call for a moderator, in fact posting those goblets wanted to give an example of the control a thin bevel can do. Sorry if anybody got upset, certainly not my intention.
 

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I was not upset, please! other are the things that do it! I just wanted to express my opinion which is that a thread should try to bring a subject to solution, if possible. Not all subjects are new in a world in which almost all has been already done, but still anything can be improved. Besides I did not intend to police the forum or call for a moderator, in fact posting those goblets wanted to give an example of the control a thin bevel can do. Sorry if anybody got upset, certainly not my intention.

Good morning........

I don't believe anyone took your post that way, Sergio.

One thing that took awhile to sink in for me, is no matter what is being discussed, there is no right or wrong about anything, as it concerns how to do things relating to the lathe. This subject will not be brought to a solution, simply because everyone has their own ideas on how to do things, and many are very committed to beliefs that are totally opposed to each other.

There is only one thing that means a hoot, and that's the results one is getting. If they are satisfied with those results, then it doesn't mean a thing if anyone else does things differently.

Bill means well, Sergio. It takes awhile to understand about a few of the regulars around here. Each one of us has a distinct online personality......not to mention that often times we are in disagreement about things. Discuss, argue your point, contemplate........but, you don't have to agree with anything. I'll admit that there has been numerous times others have convinced me to alter my thoughts, and at other times, they have not succeeded in the attempt. Unquestionably, I am a better turner for those times I have altered my turning procedures and philosophies. The trick here, is to be able to weigh what anyone else says with a bit of openness, but it doesn't mean you have to agree with anything you can't. It also means that you have to give others their own space on lathe topics.......:D

ooc
 
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Sergio: You are right. I took this thread off topic somewhat. The Hannes Vector jig was mentioned early on when discussing secondary bevels and I took that further. I don't believe that this was apples and oranges, but I admit that it was close.

One thing became clear in this discussion before I jumped in with both feet, and that is, what is the "secondary bevel". With reference to the Hannes jig, Hannes says that the small (1/16") part of the tool that is cutting is the "rubbing bevel". The larger bevel that takes away from the cutting edge much more steel is the "secondary bevel". The secondary bevel is created by grinding off the heel of the first bevel created when grinding the tool. Then, the final short bevel that knocks of the sharp heel closest to the handle is the "tertiary bevel". I'm not here to argue those terms. I just wanted to be able to make it clear what I was referring to. I was using Hannes' terms. Bill says "The secondary bevel should be approximately 1/16 inch or a hair more in width." That is just the opposite of what Hannes says. Hannes refers to the 1/16" bevel as the "rubbing bevel". The secondary bevel is the long bevel that was created when the sharp heel was ground away from the heel of the tool to create the "rubbing bevel". The secondary bevel ensures that the heel of the tool is not trying to push the rubbing bevel off the surface of the piece when turning the inside.

Bill: I am using the jig as shown in Hannes' two videos. The secondary bevel is not ground using either of the side holes in the plate. He uses only the middle hole in the center of the plate to grind the secondary bevel. That is what I was doing. Then, I was "bumping off the back" using the hole in the center of the plate closest to the wheel. This is how Hannes does it on both videos. I have had no personal instruction from him, so if that differs from the videos, I can't comment.

As to my comment about the bevel taking the shape of the wheel, what I meant was that the wheel is round and imparts a convex shape to whatever is ground on it. (A belt, by contrast, does not. The bevel coming off a belt is flat. A 6" wheel leaves a greater convex surface than an 8".) As an aside, Alan Lacer talks about this at some length in his skew videos.

The point that I was trying, unsuccessfully, to make was that I did not understand how the jig could duplicate the "fat cheeks" that Hannes used to put on his tool in his freehand days. In his freehand sharpening video, he makes a point of saying that to get his grind, you need to hold the tool at the very end of the handle and rotate the handle (not swing it) clockwise and counter clockwise to get the "fat cheeks". My point was that the jig does not and cannot do that. The tool cannot rotate in the jig. It is held firm in the jig and swung in an arc. I believe that Brian is right. You don't get the same grind. You get a series of facets that could be rounded to make one continuous bevel if you wanted to grind them freehand after using the jig.

It's not nosey to ask what I had hoped to gain by buying the Vector. I was turning, or trying to turn, a set of lamp shades. They are finished out at 1/16" or thinner, so that they are translucent. I was looking at optimal ways of sharpening to be able to take a very fine cut on thin wood, using as little pressure as possible against the surface to avoid flex. I knew about Hannes and his hats. I had seen his freehand sharpening video. I tried to duplicate his tool profile and failed miserably. When he marketed the Vector as a means of consistently reproducing the "Michelson grind", I ordered one.

Brian: The bore in the part of the jig that holds the tool would not accept anything bigger than 3/4". There is enough aluminum there to bore it out some, if you wanted to, though.
 

Bill Boehme

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Since my computer is in my shop (I know, it seems strange, but it is also my computer lab where I build computers), and the Hannes jig is sitting next to the keyboard I just measured the hole size an it is slightly over 3/4 inches in diameter. I don't know if a 3/4 inch bowl gouge is larger or smaller than 3/4 inches.
 
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3/4". I just measured it. Maybe a mats hair smaller as I didn't mic it. Thanks for checking guys. Placing my order tomorrow. Gotta ask Hannes about the 1" gouge, although I hardly ever use it. Since it's so infrequent it took me having to go back and watch the video on how to do his grind.
 
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