removing bark?

Discussion in 'Newbie' started by Jerry Bailey, Jan 31, 2014.

  1. Jerry Bailey

    Jerry Bailey

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    Bill Boehme, back to the mesquite issue ....
    yall's premonition in my previous "where to get wood" thread has come true
    guys from next door just dropped off 6 more logs, 12" x 26" , so now I really need to figure out how I'm gonna remove the bark

    But , you also said not to use the Beall system , how do you finish/buff your Mesquite? just by hand?
    is the wood that oily that sanding thru grits to 600 is enough?
    or should I also apply a wax and hand buff?

    TIA
     
  2. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    The wood isn't oily at all, but it is hard after it is dry. If you are going to apply an oil finish or rattle-can lacquer spray then sand through P400 grit. No need to wax or buff. When I want to apply a wax on a lacquer finish, I use Johnson's Paste Wax. Apply with a paper towel and buff off with a soft cloth.

    If I decide to leave the wood bare then I sand as before and then use Micromesh through 12,000 grit to get a glass like shine. Be forewarned that this is a lot of arm exercise and also if the surface isn't perfectly smooth all the dips and humps and wavy places will show up in all their glory. Getting this kind of results takes lots of patience and time.
     
  3. Jerry Bailey

    Jerry Bailey

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    thanks for the tips Bill
    I never use spray lacquers, all stuff will be a food safe finish of some sort........
    guess I'll decide how/what to do when I get to that point.

    Solved the debarking issue , damned stuff just pulled right off (with a little help)
    as wet and sticky as it is, I can really imagine what it's gonna do to my gouges, etc. :rolleyes:
     
  4. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Lacquer and shellac are both food safe, but if you are making treenware (meaning things to be used in the kitchen) an oil finish is a very good way to go because film finishes don't hold up to being washed. Some turners use mineral oil which is non drying, but it continues to soak throughout the wood and doesn't darken the wood the way that some other oils do. I have used mineral oil, but my favorite is walnut oil -- the kind that you buy in the grocery store where salad oils are sold. If you wish to use a wax over the oil finish, beeswax seems to be the favorite because it can be easily renewed by the customer whereas carnauba wax isn't.
     
  5. Jerry Bailey

    Jerry Bailey

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    I read a discussion somewhere, maybe here, where some people thought the "food" oils (from grocery stores) were known to go rancid after a while
    I presume since you propose this, that you haven't had that issue?

    I usually work with Odie's products, heavy coat Odie's Oil, let dry, then apply Odie's wax, let dry and then buff out
    if needed/desired, I could do multiple coats of waxing/buffing, but never more than 3 coats wax.......
    same reason as you stated, customers can purchase and reapply in future when needed..........
    Substituting Odie's wax for Beeswax not an issue with you ?

    many thanks for pointing me in right direction,
    have learned quite a few things for future projects :cool:
     
  6. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    Walnut oil will dry to the touch in a few days.

    Salad oils are the ones to avoid.

    A lot of turners in central florida are using Odie's oil.
    It is quick, easy, and I like the results.
     
  7. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Oils go rancid in their closed container when they get old and the fatty acids break down. Despite uninformed woodturner myths to the contrary, they don't go rancid from crosslinking with exposure to oxygen when applied to wood. For a bit of organic chemistry check out this article.

    I have used La Tourangelle Roasted Walnut Oil from the grocery store for years. It gives the wood a wonderful aroma. It feels dry to the touch in a day and catalyzes slower than other oils, but should be essentially cured in a couple weeks. I would not want to use some of the paint store type oils like linseed oil because of the metallic salts contained in it.

    I think it is possible that some turners have experienced problems when applying a film finish over uncured oil. Keep your finishes simple and pick one kind of finish to use. Combining a bit of everything in the hope of getting the best features of each is one way to create a finishing mess. You will also get all the worst features of each.
     
  8. Jerry Bailey

    Jerry Bailey

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    I love Wiki, always very informative ;)
    Will have to give the Walnut Oil a try
    are all the same in the grocery stores? or should I look for something specific in the ingredients, and stay away from ?

    TIA for all the advice and help, I'm really liking this community and it's involvement :cool:
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2014
  9. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I am only familiar with the brand that I mentioned. Not all stores will have much to choose from when it comes to gourmet oils. I am close to a local upper end market that carries the sort of things that a "foodie" would be looking for. If you have a Whole Foods or Central Market nearby then you might be able to find various oils such as walnut. The type in grocery stores might come in different grades -- sort of like olive oil where there is extra virgin, virgin, and dregs at the bottom of the barrel. For use on wood turnings, I don't think that the best grade or brand is necessary. However, I also use the walnut oil that I buy to make a really great walnut raspberry balsamic vinaigrette dressing. Top it off with some sliced roasted almonds and goat cheese on a spring mix to make a really tasty salad.
     
  10. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    The walnut oil in the grocery store is a lot different from the oils sold for finishes. If I have this right from Mike Merideth of The Doctor's Woodshop, the grocery store oil is pasteurized, and has been heated to the point where it will not cross link and cure. It does soak in though.

    I love how threads diverge.....

    robo hippy
     
  11. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    We found the best buy to be in Whole foods. I use walnut oil on all my wood utensils and for all the finishing in our kids class.

    They are using a food product. No dangers, except perhaps a nut allergy. Peanuts are not nuts!
    All of our grocery store oils were dry to the touch in a couple of days. And repeated coats build up.
    Never checked our labels for "pasteurization" makes sense heating could change it

    We just had to send the projects home in paper towel and tell the kids to wipe off any excess in a few hours.

    There are finishing products that are walnut oil. They have additives to make the oil dry faster or penetrate more.

    Al
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2014
  12. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    He might be a biochemist, but I don't believe that he is totally correct about the effect of pasteurizing walnut oil. First of all pasteurization of walnut salad oil involves heating to 160° F for 30 minutes. That is not enough heating to alter the chemical composition of the oil to the point of precluding its ability to crosslink. It doesn't cure as hard as linseed oil (from flax seed), but as you stated it soaks completely into the wood anyway. Another favorite for treenware, mineral oil, which is a petroleum product, never dries, but you would never know it because it soaks thoroughly into the wood and helps to repel water.
     
  13. R Henrickson

    R Henrickson

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    I've found the opposite can also be true -- when you want the bark to come off it will insist on holding tight. I generally prefer to do bark-free natural edges.
     
  14. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    I always thought the best way to keep the bark is to not care if it stays.

    I agree with you on no bark.
    A lot of my natural edge bowls are functional. With bark no one will use them.

    I like a contrasting sap ring and no bark.

    I sometimes have to sand the bark off.

    Al
     
  15. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I thought that if you don't care and could go either way then half of the bark will fly off and the other half will only come off with sapwood attached to it. ;)
     
  16. Jerry Bailey

    Jerry Bailey

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    just like hockenbery, I want most my things to be functional, so also want no bark
    but a sap ring as contrast doesn't sound bad, if it adds to final design/finish, never thought about that ......
    had thought about slightly burning the edge for the same kind of detail.

    But, if I were to do a piece strictly for the mantle and did want to keep the bark,
    would I saturate it with thin CA 1st before turning, to ensure it stays on ?
    Or would that not help when turning the initial shape/form?
     
  17. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I wouldn't saturate the bark with CA as that would probably not look good. Instead, just apply some thin CA along the cambium layer just before you approach the final shape. If the bark seems to be loose then you might need to apply CA sooner and then apply a bit more as you progress if it appears to be necessary.
     
  18. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    Mostly what Bill said.

    The CA does two things
    Glues the bark to the wood
    Penetrates the bark to keep it from shrinking.

    The bark typically shrinks a third more than the wood. This makes sanding a smooth surface where the bark meets the wood difficult and often leads to messing up the even walls I worked to get.
    So where it soaks in let it; that is what keeps the bark from shrinking.
    With the CA the bark will be slightly proud when dry and sands easily to form a surface with the wood. Bark sands much faster than wood. The CA harden the bark but it still sands fast.

    I use the thin thin CA with tube spouts and gravity run a thin Line around the bark/cambium line. I don't want any CA on the wood. I used to put it in the outside and take another cut. But now I usually do both inside and outside off the lathe.

    Wash the bowl, pat dry with a towel, run the CA around the outside and inside letting it run downhill.
    Then after a day or two I sand the bowl.

    There are also a couple of cuts I use to ensure the bark is not pulled off in the turning.
    Al
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2014
  19. Jerry Bailey

    Jerry Bailey

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    thanks again for the replies guys, all very helpful!

    and just as an FYI, there was a very good write-up about Oils (and finishes) in this month's American Woodturner
     
  20. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Thanks for the information. My mailman hasn't finished reading my copy yet so I went online to take a peek. BTW, the article say that grocery store walnut oil has additives to preserve the shelf life and keep it from curing. Maybe so for some brands that is the case, but the brand that I buy says 100% pure walnut oil with no additives and no preservatives. The label also says to keep it refrigerated for longest shelf life. Some grocery store walnut oil does not require refrigeration so I suspect that those brands may have been modified with preservatives or even homogenized to break down the long molecular chains into smaller molecules that may be less likely to crosslink.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2014

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