Sanding wood with widely different hardnesses

Discussion in 'Newbie' started by Hy Tran, Sep 8, 2016.

  1. odie

    odie

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    This is a good point, Bill. Another consideration is.....if there were only one type of grind, and that was a scraper, there would be no need to differentiate it from something else that didn't exist at the time......!

    My definitions of the terms "side grind" and "traditional, or standard grind" (same thing) apply only to gouges, and my knowledge of them originates within my own life span, as it applied in my early turning efforts. I acknowledge that the terms are subject to evolving over time, and not everyone is on board with definitions that will be universally understood by every turner........

    ko
     
  2. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    How a gouge is sharpened is much less important than the profile of the edge.
    A grind name needs to tell me what the business end looks like not how it was sharpened.
    Most woodturners define traditional gouge by the shape

    For the side ground the many shapes have different names.
    Like Ellsworth, Glazer, O'neil, Irish, Michelson, 40-40, 45-45......


    I sharpen a fingernail grind on spindle gouges by keeping the end of the handle in line with the wheel.
    I begin with the bevel under the center point on the wheel, I then roll the tool to the right and push the tool up the wheel a bit. Then I roll it back to center letting the tool come down the wheel to where it started. Then repeat the process for the left side.
    I can get the same grind with the woulverine.
    There are two differences. The wolverine ground tool bevel is hollow ground and the wheel marks on the bevel are close to perpendicular to the cutting edge. The hand sharpened tool has a flat bevel and the wheel marks are all parallel to the tool handle. When I use these tools there is very little difference. The flat bevel is very slightly easier to control.
    :)
    So would I call this a traditional grind when I hand sharpen and a side ground when I use the jig??? :)

    image.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016
  3. Hy Tran

    Hy Tran

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    Umm--I thought that the last finishing cut (hah!!!) was supposed to be a bevel-floating cut, and then, you went to shear-scrape or other-type-of-scrape?

    I thought pull cuts were roughing-out-cuts?
     
  4. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    Everything you say is correct! But wait there's more!
    The same gouge that does the roughing pull cut can also make a finish pull cut.

    The pull cut without the bevel riding as a roughing cut can be very effective. It just rips the wood off.

    The pull with the bevel floating is a finish cut.
    The push cut can be a finish cut too.

    On cut rim bowls i usually just do a push cut and shear scrape on the outside.
    If I'm getting a tiny bit of tearout with the push cut switching to a pull cut will often produce a clean cut.

    For natural edge bowls I rely on the pull cut to give a clean surface cutting foot to rim on the outside. In addition the pull cut usually cuts the bark cleanly as well. I don't shear scrape on the interupted cut.
    You can see how I use the pull cut in video taken if a demo - natural edge crotch bowl.
    It is listed in the Aawvideosource.
     
  5. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    You're not supposed to make the last cut whatever it might be. Whether you push or pull, there isn't any rule that says one or the other is used as a roughing cut. My final cut is often a shear cut which is a pull cut. When roughing I typically do both pull and push cuts so that I can maximize the amount of use before needing to sharpen the tool.
     
  6. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    If you order in the next 15 minutes, you'll also get a FREE ShamWow plus an eight-track with 128 of your favorite Doo-Wop hits from the fifties and sixties. :D
     
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  7. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    :) The chip-o-magic of turning tools. :)
     
  8. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    I was wondering 'what could they possible be talking about, after all this time, on this thread'. I should have remembered how we digress here.... The push/pull cut, to me is like the recess/tenon thing, both work. To me, it is all about the shear angle on the cut, and that can be done with about any style gouge, and the push/pull makes no actual difference, only the shear angle. This comes under 'presenting the tool to the wood' heading. The common form of the 'pull' cut is only done on the outside of a bowl. A swept back type gouge is used, and the handle is dropped very low, and that one is easier to do pulling, but can also be done pushing. Yes, I can do that with swept back scrapers as well. To get that same shear angle, you can use a more traditional gouge, but the one in the above pictures is more of a V flute, and you have a very small sweet spot for the cut. If you wanted to be really weird, you could turn it almost upside down, and cut more with the wing. If you use a standard spindle roughing gouge, all the way over on the side, you can get the 70 to 80 degree shear angle, and have a larger sweet spot. Same with a continental type spindle roughing gouge like Michael Mouse uses. MM's cut though is, according to 'definition' a shear scrape. I can use my ) nosed scrapers and fluteless gouges to make the same cut, as well as a shear scrape, but they won't take as big of a shaving because they don't have a flute. My preference for a high shear angle push cut is a half round flute shape, or even slightly more open. I have found detail gouges nice for this with the ) shape nose. Easy to roll up on an edge and get the high shear angle.

    Floating the bevel is a new term to me, or one that I don't remember. Is it meant to be 'the bevel should rub the wood, but the wood should not know it', or is it another way of saying 'shear scrape' where the bevel is not rubbing?

    robo hippy
     
  9. Hy Tran

    Hy Tran

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    Floating the bevel: The bevel is touching the wood, but is not burnishing the wood.

    All this talk about angles, etc. makes me fear military drill or katas with gouges...

    Hy
     
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  10. odie

    odie

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    I think robo has the proper way to understand Hy's post. I sometimes get caught up in the confusion of conflicting terminology.....and, it's mainly because I've spent so much time not being influenced by the "group think" so many turners are. I'm not implying this is good or bad, in this particular case......only that I've had to come up with some of my own terms to identify concepts that others more commonly know by other terms. Sometimes, this gets confusing and controversial, because forum communication suffers through a lack of understanding one another.

    ko
     
  11. odie

    odie

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    Exactly right, Hy.........

    Turning doesn't have to be as confusing as some make it out to be. It also doesn't have to be "right vs wrong", as some tend to think of it. Mostly, it boils down to finding your own ways of producing fine results.....and, that can be done by no other method than "hands on" experience......"stick time"......"time in the saddle", etc.......In other words, just how well your instincts interpret what you see and feel, and your ability to apply that to your own individual set of learned knowledge and principles.

    ko
     
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