Serious lathe accidents and injurys.......a preventive idea

Discussion in 'Woodturning Health & Safety' started by odie, Oct 6, 2012.

  1. john lucas

    john lucas

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    5,830
    Location:
    Cookeville TN USA
    better helmut

    Oddie I've been looking also. I'm in Atlanta visiting this week so I hit a few stores. My problem is two fold. heat in the summer and staying protected. The Hockey and football helmuts seem like they would be hot in the Tennessee Summer. The Lacross helmuts lookg good, light weight with padding and a good wire cage but you would need to wear safety glasses at a minimum and I'd kind of like to keep the dust and chips out of my mouth and nose which is at least part of why I wear a faceshield when I do.
    Mike Gibson posted a photo of a Fencing mask. He showed me his last night. it's good a solid and has a surpisingly good view but seemed a little heavy to me. I didn't check on the price of these things but suspect they are quite high.
    Staying out of the line of fire is my main line of defense but in the sake of good form sometimes you simply have to get parallel to the bowl to really see the shave imerge as you turn. There in lies my search for a good comfortable, safe faceshield/helmut.
    The riot helmut if price was not a problem would seem like a good option. They are designed to hits from rocks, and other hand held weapons icluding bats and batons so I think they would deflect a piece of wood and at the very worst at least reduce the inujies from flying wood.
    I tried my cage on my powermatic. useless. Wood shaving hang up in it and you can't see what your doing. You spend more time pulling the shavings out than turning. If it was plastic the dust and water from green turnings would cover it and you couldn't see either so that's not an option.
     
  2. Matthew Clarke

    Matthew Clarke

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2006
    Messages:
    72
    Location:
    Poughkeepsie, NY
    A Different Suggestion

    Hi Odie,

    First of all, thanks for beginning this thread. Recently, I attended a presentation by Stuart Batty. One of the things that he mentioned was that when he roughs out a bowl blank, he teaches his students to turn it at 900 rpm or less, and between centers. He explained that, at that speed, when something goes wrong, the wood tends to drop rather than sail across the shop. I don't have any access to research to back up that claim, but I remember that he spent some time talking about how he learned that (I guess I my mind was 'drifting'). I did read Lynn Yamaguchee's blog and noted that she mentioned that she was turning at a high speed. Frankly, I think that roughing a bowl at 900 rpm or less is just common sense. Possibly, the low inertial speed imparted by it rpm, the solidity of the blank, and the between centers grip act to prevent what happened to Lynn. I would further add that it is a good idea to fill in or carve out all of those cracks very early on if you want to use them as a point of contrast.

    Finally, I want to add a counter experience. Several years ago, I was finish turning the foot of a bowl that was mounted to my lathe using the OneWay Jumbo Jaws. The speed was between 700 and 850 rpm. I was touching up the joint between the foot and the bottom of the bowl when it just exploded. A piece hit my face protection in the position that would have been right between the eyes. I walked away from that uninjured, just a bit shaken up. I have told that story to my students many times and prayed a 'thank you' for having had the protection on at the time. My presumption has always been that the problem was that the joint was too thin and that the pressure of the rubber bungs on the rim acted to push the wood out rather than just let it fall. So, IMHO maybe if you keep the revolutions at 900 and below, and stand out of 'the line of fire', a face mask will be more than enough protection. Just a thought.

    Again, thanks for raising the issue.

    Matt
     
  3. Scott Austin

    Scott Austin

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2012
    Messages:
    45
    Location:
    English, IN
    Hi all.


    I just thought I would put in my 2 cents on this. I think you are underestimating the strength of your basic face shields. I have always worked in construction or some kind of heavy industry. I will tell you a couple of stories of just how tough a quality faceshield really is.

    Story #1.

    Several years ago we were working at ground level installing some pumps and above us there was work going on at 70 feet above and every 10 feet in between. There were iron workers, plumbers, electricians, millwrights, and welders working everywhere. A gentleman working close to me had been using a grinder and was wearing a faceshield. Someone about 50 feet above dropped a 24" pipe wrench. They yelled "look out" from above and the man on the ground looked straight up. That roughly ten pound pipe wrench hit him right square in the face. His face did get bruised up pretty bad and he ended up with a broken nose. But it would have. Been much worse without that face shield.

    Story # 2.

    I was a mechanic in an iron foundry and we had machines called 106 grinders. They had 24 hp motors, and a 24" x 3" grinding wheel that turned 3600 rpm. They were made to grind a lot of material off of those castings in a hurry. I saw one of those grinding stones fly apart once. The guy got 17 stitches in his arm, but the faceshield that did take a hit hard enough to break the headband kept his face from getting hurt.

    The moral of those 2 stories is that a good quality face shield will take one hell of a hit and it might hurt and bruise a bit, but it will keep from death or really serious injury. Just something for you to think on before you worry about going and spending a bunch of money on a super helmet.
     
  4. MichaelMouse

    MichaelMouse

    Joined:
    May 16, 2005
    Messages:
    3,540
    My Teknatool Cole jaws have 600 max rpm stamped on them. I never trusted them on their own, so I kept the live center engaged. Habit from the old jam chuck days made me keep a bit of pressure on the bottom to expand the top against the buttons.

    Can't find the original manual, but it seems the first Nova chucks were listed for 600 max, regardless the jaws. Now, with the 3000 and 1624, I notice they are rated for 680, rather than 600. Coincidence?
     
  5. Fred Belknap

    Fred Belknap

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2011
    Messages:
    168
    Location:
    Gassaway, WV
    Home Page:
    I checked the manual for the Talon Jumbo jaws and they say under 1250 rpm for small bowls, under 900 rpm for large bowls and bowl 12" or larger less. That kind of defines the a large or small bowl.
     
  6. Steve Worcester

    Steve Worcester Admin Emeritus

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2004
    Messages:
    2,629
    Location:
    Plano, Texas
    Home Page:
    What we need is a hockey helmet with a safety shield. Wearing prescription glasses, I hate wearing safety glasses.

    As for staying out of the line of fire, one of the fundamental basics of woodturning is to stand right over your cut, standing away means you aren't seeing what is happening over the gouge, which is probably as dangerous.
     
  7. odie

    odie

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,424
    Location:
    Deep in the woods
    Hiya John......

    Much of your thinking is similar to mine. Yes, if possible, staying out of the way is the first option........ As others have confirmed, there are times where all of us seem to stray from the optimum, whether it is purely accidental, or for some perceived turning advantage.

    I never thought of a fencing helmet.......that's another option that seems like it ought to work pretty good. I looked at some Lacrosse helmets online, and if the timing were right, I'd have gotten one of those......they should do the job as well as a hockey helmet would. There are Cricket helmets, too.......might also work.

    No matter what kind of helmet is purchased, there is a possibility that a replacement shield for a standard face shield could be adapted for use, attached to the front of the metal face guard of the helmet. Possibly, by using some electrical wire ties, and punching a couple of holes in the shield, it could be done........? This is something I'm already planning to try.......

    I had this Lacrosse helmet on my "eBay watch list" and planned to bid on it.....but, the other hockey helmet was a done deal first. I see the auction expired without any bids at all.......could have been purchased for $25, which included the shipping. If this person re-lists it, it might suit you:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sport-helme...1C+QWtqBlFZnpgOQHuo7GKU=&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

    There looks to be quite a few pretty good deals on eBay for Lacrosse, ice hockey, Cricket, and football helmets..... if you search around a bit.......

    good luck......

    ooc
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2012
  8. odie

    odie

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,424
    Location:
    Deep in the woods
    Hello, and you are certainly welcome Matt........

    Your post reminded me of something I've done in the past. There have been times where I've purposely over-speeded a turning, simply for testing purposes. My lathe controls are mounted at the tailstock end of the full length bedways, so it's easy to do this and stay well out of the line of fire. Just how much benefit there is to this, realistically, is up to speculation.....but, it does tend to boost my confidence level for turning the piece at a slower speed.

    I used to have the Nova Cole jaws that MM mentioned, and I believe he is correct that the maximum suggested rpm was 600rpm on those. I now have two sets of Oneway jaws for turning the bottoms of bowls......Mega Jumbo Jaws and Jumbo Jaws. Both of these jaw sets are marked 1000rpm max.

    There are multiple factors that would require one to vary the rpm.......bowl weight, how well the wedge shaped rubber grippers fit the shape of the bowl (both expand and contract mode), species, thinness/thickness of the bowl, shape, diameter, noted defects, etc,etc,etc....... I have gone as fast as 1200rpm without problem. This is not to say that every object that can be held by the Oneway Jumbo Jaws can be turned that fast, but it does suggest that the suggested rpm is exactly that.....a suggestion.....and, that suggestion is probably based on the belief that many of the newer turners who use these jaws, should be bound by a more stringent set of rules than does someone who has accumulated more experience with them.......;)

    ooc
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2012
  9. Ian Robertson

    Ian Robertson

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2010
    Messages:
    111
    Location:
    Tooradin, Australia.
    Home Page:
    I have been following this with a bit of interest.

    Most of my work is big spindle work and it is impossible to stand out of the way. I agree with Steve that in most cases when doing the outside of a bowl that you have to almost stand in front as you have little tool control with your arms outstretched.

    Another important thing is that a face shield is made to absorb energy by flexing with the blow and finally head bands breaking away much like the crumble zones in cars.

    My biggest worry if you use a helmet like a hockey or baseball mask is that the force is transmitted to your head and neck.

    I don't think it would do them much good either.;)
     
  10. John Lawson

    John Lawson

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2008
    Messages:
    142
    Location:
    Denton, TX
    I find I tend to get my face too close to my work. Not as dangerous as it sounds, since I only turn small spindles, but I'm going to take a page from Cindy Drozda's book and get single-vision glasses with a focal length such that I can stand up straight and still see the workpiece. I'll probably get them made into prescription safety glasses. I have been resisting going to trifocals for years, but it may finally be time to start juggling multiple pairs of glasses.
     
  11. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2005
    Messages:
    8,139
    Location:
    Dalworthington Gardens, TX
    Home Page:
    Trifocals aren't bad as long as you don't go for the current style of very narrow glasses that leave little room for each range. The latest glasses that I got this year are "old guy" style and allow each of the windows to have a comfortable height. I believe that I recall that it is 8 mm for the mid and near vision. I tried to confirm this measurement, but ran into a fundamental problem -- with glasses and ruler in hand, I couldn't see either of them well enough to determine anything. :D
     
  12. odie

    odie

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,424
    Location:
    Deep in the woods
    John........

    Get the tri-focals. I've been using them for about ten years, and it only took a short time before I was switching between lenses completely subconsciously. I have single focal length lens goggles for motorcycle riding, and I'm going to spend the extra money and get multiple lenses next time.

    -------------------------------------------------

    I did a little modification to the hockey helmet this evening.

    ....Cut away some padding so glasses fit the sides better.
    ....Eliminated 2nd under chin strap......don't need it.
    ....Eliminated side ear protectors......don't need them.
    ....Repositioned cage straps.
    ....Tilted cage outward slightly, so that Resp-o-rator fits inside. I was afraid this might not be very easy a task, but as luck would have it, it was very easy to do. Padded chin strap still fits like it should.

    I will be adding a clear plastic lens to the front shortly........

    I think this contraption looks ridiculous and ugly, but it looks like it just might work beautifully!

    ooc
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  13. Ian Robertson

    Ian Robertson

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2010
    Messages:
    111
    Location:
    Tooradin, Australia.
    Home Page:
    Interesting respirator. I have never seen that type before.

    Could you enlighten me please?
     
  14. odie

    odie

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,424
    Location:
    Deep in the woods
    Hi Ian......

    Here's a link:

    http://www.resp-o-rator.com/ror/

    There is a YouTube demonstration link at the bottom.......

    We had a discussion thread some time back.....you could probably locate it with a search......but, I have to go to bed right now......good luck.

    ooc
     
  15. Ian Robertson

    Ian Robertson

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2010
    Messages:
    111
    Location:
    Tooradin, Australia.
    Home Page:
    Thanks for that.
     
  16. MichaelMouse

    MichaelMouse

    Joined:
    May 16, 2005
    Messages:
    3,540
    Translation, don't take your daughter with you when you pick out your frames. You're allowed to choose your own fashion. Wives may cluck, but don't mock.

    The center works fine for me at both at the lathe and the computer, but it is a liability working where depth perception is vital. Seems the different diopters fool the brain when one eye assesses through one magnification, the second, another.

    If you do work requiring exquisite detail, the best I've found is one of those articulated arm magnifiers, though with my habit of working above center on convex areas, the tool is pushing the work away and/or down as it cuts, which makes the tool the first line of defense. I never work above 680, either, though some crank to 2-3K. Prevention and protection in slower rotation. Better tool control possible, but better presentation demanded. The wood tells you when you've got it right.

    With bowls remaining between centers for me until they're virtually complete, I suppose I could say they're the equivalent of heavy spindles, but I'm normally working at right angles to the axis of rotation rather than along it on bowls, which makes keeping my distance easy.
     
  17. Jim Livingston

    Jim Livingston

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2011
    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    Danville, VA
    Since the conversation has evolved into eyewear let me add some food for thought.

    Depending on your Rx needs - another solution that I find works well for many people is to have a pair of bifocals made with the "distance" lens set at your intermediate distance (or working distance) and the bifocal for near. It'll make things a little fuzzy beyond 6 or 8 feet but it works well in close which is where we spend most of our time. Works well at the table saw and band saw also! I wear what is called an occupational double bifocal (one up top and one down below) these come in a multitude of designs but are mostly only available in CR-39 (which is good but not the best). Everybody's needs differ and there are a lot of options available, any Optician worth his salt can work with you to come up with what is best for you!

    The best material (DO NOT GET GLASS) for the lens is a product called "Trivex" it has impact resistance =/> than Polycarbnate and is much more durable. It's best to have the lenses set in a safety frame that is marked Z87.1. These frames are designed to prevent the lens from being pushed out the back of the frame in the event of impact, also they are made of materials that will bend and not break, thus preventing puncture wounds. And yes get a large frame, in the event of impact a small frame can be forced back into the orbital cavity and rupture the eye! Need I say more?
     
  18. John Lawson

    John Lawson

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2008
    Messages:
    142
    Location:
    Denton, TX
    Jim,

    Thanks for the detail info. I will have it in hand when I go to the optician. Can you still get case-hardened glass lenses?

    Bill, Odie,

    My problem when it comes to trifocals is that I'm still working as an IT manager. with a row of three 19" monitors on my desk. I need a lens area that allows me to focus on my monitors (at 22" from my eyes) without have to constantly adjust my head position.

    My wife regularly complains about my extremely large frames ("It's not the 70's anymore!"). I nod and say "Yes, dear" and will choose what I want when the time comes.
     
  19. Alan Trout

    Alan Trout

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2008
    Messages:
    86
    Location:
    San Antonio Texas
    Home Page:
    I wore regular bi-focal's for my safety glasses for a couple of years. When I finally needed more magnification my Optometrist ask if I want to try a progressive lens. I did it in my everyday glasses first. I love them so much I had my safety glasses re-made with progressive lenses. For me there was no adjustment I put them on and they just worked great. I have herd some folks have trouble adjusting to them. However it might depend on what affliction you have with your eyes. I am basically farsighted my correction is all positive prescription, and my distant prescription is pretty light. As I need more magnification just look a little farther down the lens.

    I had a friend hear in San Antonio that was very close to loosing his life from a bowl that came off the lathe and hit him in the head. He went through 14 hours of reconstructive surgery. I was able to see his copies of the CT scan and his face and jaw looked like a 1000 piece puzzle. He has almost lost his vision in one eye as well and it still is not working right.

    The tenon on the bowl was not made properly. The tenon was in a bark inclusion and there was a gap at the inclusion. When he cracked down on his large Vicmarc 150 chuck it pulled the bowl and it started to crack at the inclusion. The bowl broke in half as it was spinning and half hit him in the head and the other half went all the way across the shop. It knocked him unconscious He came to on the floor about 15 min later in a pool of blood and could not see. He tried to call EMS on his cell phone but they could not find his address. The shop is in a metal building and they could not ping his phone. He crawled out to the parking lot where they were able ping the phone and found him laying in the parking lot.

    What I have seen in most of these cases is that there are generally many bad decisions, distractions, or lack of understanding involved in these accidents. I as an example have found most times I have injured myself have been late at night when I am fatigued. Just the other night I got my finger caught between a jaw slide and the tool rest. It took a large chunk out of the end of my finger. It was about midnight and I was tired. Knowing your limits is very important. My friend for example had very little experience with large pieces, he is primarily a pen turner and I really think he was not familiar with best chucking practices. It nearly cost his life.

    Education, head protection, and good judgement will be the best preventative to these fatal and nearly fatal accidents.

    Alan
     
  20. Bill Weaver

    Bill Weaver

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Messages:
    167
    Location:
    Riverside Ohio
    Another direction some may want to try, since a helment might be to much is a softball catchers mask. This mask has a finer set of bars as the hockey helment does. It also has a band on the outer sides so that a plastic face sheild could be modified to fit over the mask area. In thinking about the modification the face shield could be pop riveted or epoxyed to the frame.

    Advantages it would be cooler in summer heat you can wear glasses under them you can use hearing protection with and would be lighter feeling to the head.
     

Share This Page