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Discussion in 'Woodturning Health & Safety' started by Bill Boehme, May 7, 2013.
Thanks for the testimonial, Bill......
Since I converted to variable speed with a Minarik controller equipped with a motor brake, stopping a turning is pretty quick. Seems to me I recall a couple of minor cuts from trying to slow down the turning, but this would have to be prior to changing over to VS. My lathe has a hand wheel, and that would be the smart thing to grab onto........I don't claim to always have done the smart thing, and sometimes it takes doing the wrong thing to understand that it's best to look for another way that is safer.
I have an old VHS video by Del Stubbs. Haven't see that video in years, but I do recall him rigging up a foot pedal that releases the belt tension between spindle and motor. He was able to stop rotation pretty quick with that arrangement.
Regardless, the motor brake I now have, keeps me from ever touching the turning to stop it.........
I can't really say what made me put my hand on the turning while it was still turning. It must have been a lapse in thinking because it is something that I do not normally do and certainly not if the piece has "negative space" (artsy-fartsy talk for holes, gaps and other stuff that can hurt you if not careful). Anyway, it was not the smart thing to do. I'll file this away on the same list that includes not picking up hot horse shoes or striking matches to see if the gas tank is empty.
I also have the Del Stubbs video. I think that his lathe was a Woodfast that he rigged with a foot pedal to loosen drive belt tension.
I do have a nice dent in one of my headstock lamps......this has been there for a decade, or so........but, IIRC, I was using a scraper in the interior of a bowl and had a catch. The handle came up and hit me under the chin and put the dent in the lamp. I was wearing a face shield. I was lucky because there wasn't any major injury......maybe some bruising......but, it could have been bad.
I no longer use scrapers in the interior of bowls, except in a very limited capacity. For my purposes in interior work, scrapers aren't a tool to remove wood, but more of a finish tool and a few applications where access is very difficult.
Among the many things I've learned through turning is patience. I tend to be impulsive and have found it doesn't go well with power tools at all. Not to say I won't someday do exactly as you did. Glad you're ok.
Lou Williams is AAW's chapters and membership committee chair and he will be leading a local-chapter-leaders' meeting at the symposium in Tampa. Lou would be the person to communicate this message to local chapter leaders firstname.lastname@example.org. Send him an email with this suggestion.
Lou also helps write the content of the email messages that regularly get sent to AAW members. That would be another place to suggest that clubs share stories about accidents.
I will continue to include articles on safety in the journal (and will consider how I could include your suggestion). The June issue contains a safety quiz that will also be available on AAW's website for downloading. It was written by a local-chapter member in North Carolina. It'll be in the products/AW area.
Betty Scarpino, editor, AW
There is a special subcategory of the "Charlie" for woodturners known as the "Chuck".
They are functional trophies and I have noticed that some recipients use them to attach wood to the spindle of their lathe.
I have also learned that I am being considered for a "Corrigan" because of my innovative approach to doing things the "wrong way".
Oh, no, not me. I haven't done any stupid turner tricks. Well, not recently. Okay, well, not today. Okay, I haven't been out to the shop yet today.
Really, the most important safety tool is that thing that sits between our shoulders, and is supposed to regulate common sense.
When sphincter tightening exceeds chuck tightening, you have a problem. From 'Pat's Fan' over at Wood Net forums. Love that one.
pretty much the way it goes in my state too
I read the thread you linked to. I don't have your legal qualifications but I have noticed things go much the same way in my state. What you told people, what you had them sign, may not carry the weight of what you showed them or what was common practice at a site. What you say doesn't usually carry the weight of what you do. Essentially what you are conveying is one way is the "official" way to do things but it is just fine to do it like you are demonstrating. Some risk but not enough to be worried about. If it was really dangerous surely the expert would not be doing it.
The employer or trainer might win a court case but their odds aren't good in this type of situation. Better to make a substantial settlement than risk going to court if you are given that option and can afford it. A demonstration looks a lot like a seminar to me. When someone giving a demonstration does something outside of safety rules they have the built in issue that they just did it in front of dozens of witnesses too.
I know someone that travels the country training people on high end medical equipment. There are workarounds and procedures that are probably as safe as the documented ones if performed properly. The only reply he can give when somebody asks about these things is that it isn't an approved way to use the equipment. No "but yeah . . ." Not a proper function of the equipment, end of conversation. He would make himself and his company liable with any other reply.
Isn't it a shame and a ridiculous expense that we have to try and head off the lawyers? Can't remember where I read it, but it was either widely quoted or true that the average annual cost per lawyer in this country is greater than the average salary of a doctor. Or, along with the tech section on Morning Edition this morning, commenting on the shortage of native coding folks, the idea that the trouble with US education is we graduate seven lawyers to every engineer.
In previous employment I had too much to do with lawyers. Reports were written with all measures taken in strict compliance with the (then) current standard of care, regardless what else might have been tried and found effective. Defense after the fact. Not that it would stop legal action. Especially in a state where any level of responsibility can be held liable for full compensatory and punitive damage.
"I do things this way, you may do them as you please." Should suffice. "I won't come to your shop and critique, do me the same favor."
Unfortunately as you well know, anything that starts with "common" isn't common anymore. Common decency, common courtesy, common sense, none common any longer. It is never someone's own fault they came to grief. It is the fault of the deepest pocket that contorted logic can find fault with, if no deep pocket can be found it was the fault of everyone else but the injured party.
Sometimes some truth to that, sometimes not. When safety regulations first came to industrial occupations to a significant degree we sometimes had safety rules that would have reduced production over fifty percent, maybe over seventy-five percent. So we were given safety presentations, forced to sign paperwork, and fired for nonproduction if we actually did what we were forced to sign. In a very highly regulated area of industry someone was written up for "malicious compliance" with the rules. A firing offense to not comply, an offense that impacted salary and bonuses and could lead to firing if you did comply.
We could lay the blame at the lawyers door but we would be stopping short of the real issue. What percentage of people making our laws are lawyers? If we had a healthy mix of all occupations represented in the congress and senate we might have more reasonable laws. All these lawsuits? Class action suits often the lawyers get millions, the offended parties get a coupon. More standard suits the lawyer may be getting over forty percent of the gross plus all legal expenses. That is before medical bills or other real costs of the injured party are taken out. The medical companies and the insurance companies play their own games so ultimately only the individual and the consumer loses. I have seen people get huge settlements, set for life right? Nope, still way over their head in debt for medical bills and genuinely unable to work.
Things are seldom how they appear to be to someone looking at them from only one perspective. No question that our entire system is deeply warped and getting worse all the time though. Fifty-five or sixty percent of people think they are taxed fairly. Fifty-five or sixty percent of people pay no taxes. The lawyers and people employed by the insurance companies and in political office produce little of tangible value. The medical field invents medicine and equipment then finds a need for it. X-rays are becoming a thing of the past because there are higher dollar procedures to do the same thing.
We certainly need some of each but we have long ago became a nation where the tail is wagging the dog instead of the other way around. I really think there should be a percentage cap on how many people can work for the government and how many people can hold political office. Not too many years ago, in the 80's, the USDA was asked how many individual offices they had. It took them over a year to admit they didn't know and had no way to tell!
Oh yeah, we were talking about a minor injury on a lathe in this thread weren't we? Oops!
Let's get back on topic here. I have no plans to sue myself -- I made an out of court settlement between my brain and hand where I promised myself to watch where I stick my hand when working in the shop. If you want to belly ache about lawyers start your own thread and don't hijack this one.
Don't believe in information evolution? You seem to have left the thread before Mark's post and URL. If you don't care to wade through, read http://www.woodcentral.com/woodwork...ead/id/467473/sbj/where-are-you-mark-mandell/ Sad when things other than turning intrude, but worth discussion, especially for local chapter liability.
I am sorry Bill. The original discussion seemed to have ran it's course and a bad habit from another forum where threads usually take fourteen different turns, I did knowingly make a basically off topic post although the thread had drifted into the demo's and such. I didn't mean for the post to be nearly as far ranging when I started but having been on both sides of lawsuits multiple times I have more than the quick note worth of comment I originally intended to post. Not very good at short posts anyway, my nature I am afraid. Can't promise short posts but I will try to do better at keeping them on topic!
Back on topic, are you going to do a reenactment for video?
Actually, I read your post as primarily a discussion about safety. I hate to act like I am the Internet police (reminds me of a Country music song BTW), but at the same time it is hard to pass up a opportunity to twist MM's tail.
I suppose that I could do a video since people generally learn better visually. I guess that I need to find an actor to play me in the video. Maybe Norm is available -- "Before we use any power tools, let's take a moment to talk about shop safety. Be sure to read, understand, and follow all the safety rules that come with your power tools ....... And remember this: there is no more important safety rule than to wear these â€” safety glasses." I don't know about the plaid shirt and tool belt though.
I posted the link in response to Kelly's contribution, not to get anyone started on a jurisprudential discussion, but rather to focus on the issues of personal responsibility and teaching "safety and safely." You, of course, have taken personal responsibility for your mistake and posted here as a valuable effort to teach a "Don't Do What I Did" moment.
There are two ways to approach shop safety, regardless of what tool (powered, otherwise, or how we're dressed ) is being used: Defensive or Offensive. We can approach the issues with a negative attitude like "I better do not this because someone's gonna get a lawyer and sue me when they get hurt after seeing me do it," or in a positive mind-set of "Since it's likely that someone will get hurt if they try this, what can I do to make this activity safer so it's less likely to result in harm in the first place." The AAW has taken a dual approach through its insurance program and its affirmative outreach efforts to teach safer methods and to strongly discourage unsafe practices.
Oh, by the way, let's not forget that the most important piece of safety equipment we have is located directly behind our eyes and between our ears. Leave that 'in the locker' and you give up all hope. Kevlar a foot thick won't protect you from "stupid."
I've had some time to think about what's important in life over the last few days and dismount from my high horse. I am also hanging up my Internet Police badge (for the moment, at least).
Bill I thank you for starting the thread and its good intent but beleave you were right in saying it had gone off topic, it was not a club or work accident was it so the need to stray was not needed ,just my 2 cents worth.
Threads are pretty much like being in a group of people having casual conversation. It's not reasonable to think the directions the subject matter take can be strictly regulated. The conversation will go where it will go......and, when it veers off, it can get more interesting.
For those who think the subject should remain on topic, it could be changed back to the original theme by adding content that tends to re-focus attention.
There is no right or wrong in this. The point has been stressed over and over, and I can see the frustration of those who want a thread to stay on topic.....but, I can also see the point of those who have interest in the twists and turns of a more casual conversation.
My 2 cents, as well.
Badge? Yo don need no steeengking badges, Man!