The trouble with diamond cone hones and your gouges......

[odie]

Just a quick notation for those who are using diamond cone hones for removing the burr inside the flute of gouges.....

They do wear out!

Over the past few months I've been frustrated with cutting that isn't up to par with what I've had in the past. About a week ago, I replaced the diamond cone with a new one and.......shazaam.......cutting was better than it's been over the past few months.

I couldn't figure out just why I was having these problems......and it was intermittent, because it only occurred with the most difficult of woods and the most difficult of cuts......but, now I know!

The problem is microscopic, so it's easy to remain undetected. Near as I can guess, the hone must have been not removing the burr, but actually bending it over in some locations, while removing it in others.....resulting in an edge that was not cleanly sharp along the entire edge.

ooc

 

[Brian McInturff]

Odie,
Do you think it was some type of "loading up" on the hone or is it for sure "worn out". Also, in your experience is the ceramic hone up to par with the diamond hone. That is if you've tried both. I've misplaced mine(or lost it) and am getting ready to purchase another. Glad you brought this topic up.
Thanks!

 

[robo hippy]

Well, I never hone mine. Never have, just didn't find it did anything. Diamond does load up. I don't think the hand hones degrade the way diamond wheels do, which if I remember correctly, the diamonds don't take the heat as well as the CBN does. Some do use kerosene as a lubricant. I have some old DMT diamond stones, and have used Ajax/Comet abrasive cleansers on them but it did nothing.

robo hippy

 

[john lucas]

Odie I've been using a Diamond Fish Hook sharpener for years. I don't use it all the time but it always seems to clean up my tool when I need that extra something for a better cut.

 

[hockenbery]

I keep a ceramic slip stone by the wheel.
I use it to clean the flutes before sharpening not for honing.

A lot of junk can be in the flute after wet wood turning.
It makes it hard to see the sparks breaking over the sharp edge and I think the grinder makes a sharper edge against a clean flute than it does against one covered in resins.

I sometime use a diamond rod for the same purpose.

Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

Do they wear out? Absolutely! The binder material apparently is not the greatest. I have several of them that are down to smooth bare steel. They were originally designed for grinding the cutting edge on mortising chisels, but woodworkers use them for everything imaginable. I agree with Al and also recommend using a slipstone as a simpler and much faster solution.(they come in diamond, ceramic, and several other abrasive materials). Since we've discussed this subject before I seem to recall that the diamond cones are your comfort zone.

 

[robo hippy]

Al, I don't think I have seen sparks coming over the bevel edge on my tools for a long time. CBN wheels! They do generate some sparks, but pretty minimal. The sludge in the flutes can get messy. Some times I clean out with a cloth, or if it has 'cured' over night, a trip to the wire wheel I keep on one of my grinders.

robo hippy

 

[john lucas]

I use a brass brush to clean the crud out of the flute. I'm now using a trend lines diamond hone. It seems to stay sharp a lot longer and they have a 5 year warranty so I guess that means they have a lot of faith in the fact it will stay sharp.

 

[odie]

Odie,
Do you think it was some type of "loading up" on the hone or is it for sure "worn out". Also, in your experience is the ceramic hone up to par with the diamond hone. That is if you've tried both. I've misplaced mine(or lost it) and am getting ready to purchase another. Glad you brought this topic up.
Thanks!

Brian......I didn't want to respond until I took the time to take some Goof Off cleaner to the old cone diamond hone. I did that this afternoon, and for sure, this isn't a loading up issue. The binder that holds the fine diamonds is completely worn away to bare metal in the central portion of the shaft. There is still some detectable diamond coating near the butt of the shaft. This hone has been in constant use for five or more years, and I just wasn't aware that I had worn away the abrasive. Well.....now I know!

I haven't used ceramic on lathe tools, but have used it for sharpening knives. Ceramic may very well work for my purposes, but I do need a cone, or tapered shape to do my gouges. I generally stick with what has worked for me, and the diamond cone is a perfect fit for my needs. If I run across a ceramic cone, at some future time, I wouldn't mind giving one a try.

I use a brass brush to clean the crud out of the flute. I'm now using a trend lines diamond hone. It seems to stay sharp a lot longer and they have a 5 year warranty so I guess that means they have a lot of faith in the fact it will stay sharp.

John......thanks for responding. Yes, you are right that each time a hone is used, the flute should get a cleaning. I do have a brass brush about the size of a toothbrush for this purpose, as well. Also, I have a nylon brush, steel brush, and a specially shaped steel pick made from an old screwdriver. Depending on the current need, any or all of the above might be used........but the brass brush gets the most use by far.

I just ordered a Trend diamond pen file with a tapered round shaft. It's a bit more expensive than the DMT diamond cones that I had been using. The Trend is advertised to have the diamonds electroplated onto the shaft, while mentioning that others are simply glued. I don't know what process the DMT used for attaching the diamonds.

Here is a link to the Trend diamond pen:
http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/p/5/-/21/96/-/5816/Trend-Diamond-Pen-File?term=diamond hone

I do have one other half round Trend diamond file, and it appears to be of higher quality than the DMT, but I haven't used it very much as yet.

Thanks to all who have added content to this thread, and I'm interested in hearing any other opinions.......

ooc

 

[john lucas]

Odie I used to use the less expensive diamond hones from DMT and EZ. I would go through a set in about a year or less. I bought one of the Trend lines flat diamond hones to see if it holds up better. I've had it 6 months now and it feels just as sharp as day 1. It's quite a bit more expensive but like I said it has a 5 year warranty and if it lasts that long just the pleasure of using a sharp hone each time you pick it up will be worth it. The less expensive ones gradually get duller and duller until you get frustrated and then order a new one.

 

[KellyDunn]

I have one of Alan Lacers hones. Now and again I take a brush under some water to clean the loading. Other diamond hones just wear the diamond off and get tossed. I have had Alans for years now and still seems pretty good.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I have one of Alan Lacers hones. Now and again I take a brush under some water to clean the loading. Other diamond hones just wear the diamond off and get tossed. I have had Alans for years now and still seems pretty good.

I also bought one from Alan Lacer a few years ago when he was at our club for a week of training. The two curved sides are just the right curvature to cover most bowl gouges that I have. One stroke usually takes care of the inside edge. The diamonds seem to be as good as when I bought it about five years ago.

 

[Rob Wallace]

Cleaning the diamond hone.....

Bill, et al.

I also own one of Alan Lacer's diamond hones, and agree that the two different radii on the edges of the stone are particularly useful for honing the flute surfaces of gouges.

I talked with Alan about the possibility of loading the stone with metal over prolonged use, and he said it happens all the time. He recommended that the stone be cleaned periodically using a penetrating oil. He recommends soaking the diamond hone in a penetrating oil (similar to "Liquid Wrench") called PB Blaster (available at automotive parts stores, farm stores, etc.). I took his advice and soaked my diamond hone for a few days in PB Blaster during the work week (i.e when I was not turning) by wrapping the stone with paper towel, and spraying the towel until it was saturated, then placing it into a zip-lock plastic bag for a few days.

When I then wiped-off the stone with a clean paper towel after the "soak", the amount of metal coming off of the stone was amazing!! I tested the stone and it did work better. While I still had the saturated paper towel available, I re-soaked the stone again for another few days, and the second time I cleaned it, I used an old toothbrush to scrub and loosen any additional metal particles on all sides of the stone, and found that I was able to remove even more metal from the stone that I thought had already been 'cleaned'!!

With this procedure, my Lacer diamond hone was rejuvenated significantly with some simple soaking in penetrating oil, and subsequent clean-up to remove the metal particles. Those with similar diamond hones that suspect they are clogging with metal particles should try this easy cleaning procedure.

I hope this helps people get more life out of their diamond hones.

Rob Wallace

(BTW - I do not seem to get metal clogging my new CBN hone from D-Way Tools, but I'll keep an eye on it over time. I wish this CBN stone had the rounded edges as do the Lacer diamond hones!)

 

[john lucas]

That's probably why Trendlines tells you to use their lubricant each time you use the hone. You can use other stuff as well but I'll have to look up on their site or write them to tell you what because I've forgotten. They also tell you that you can clean the hone with a regular old school eraser.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Rob, thanks for the information. We were at lunch while Alan was explaining how to clean the hone and I was paying more attention to the menu than his tutorial. All that I remember of his instructions was that fajitas and el muy grande platter both sounded really good and something about cleaning a hone.

For want of adequate information, I fell back to my standard cleaning method: Simple Green -- if it works on tires and engines then a little pocket hone is hardly any challenge.

 

[odie]

Interesting........I visited the Alan Lacer web page, and it looks like his diamond hone is shaped like a tapered slip stone, very similar to the Henry Taylor sets. This is a very useful shape, and having some experience with this shape as opposed to a cone shape, I believe I'd rather have the cone.

I see both the Lacer hone and the Trend pen file are both utilizing an electroless nickel plating process to attach the powdered diamond surface. The EZE-lap mentions that the stone has a nickel surface, but doesn't say whether the diamond powder is plated onto the surface, or glued.....? I have a Big Diamond Hone by EZE-lap that I purchased at the same time as I did the worn out DMT cone hone that initiated this thread. The EZE-lap is still going strong, and it gets much more use than the DMT hone did. I'm guessing it's electroless nickel plated, too. By the looks of the old worn out DMT cone hone, I'm betting this outfit is the one every other manufacturer is pointing out that glues the diamonds onto the surface......

When I first purchased the DMT cone hone, and the EZE-lap big diamond hone, I purchased spares for both. I'm now on the second DMT cone hone, and still have a brand new unused EZE-lap big diamond hone. Just today, the new Trend diamond pen file arrived......so, I'm good for quite a long time before I'll have this issue re-appear.

I do see that the Trend suggests only a damp rag for cleaning the diamond surface, or the eraser they sell. This seems to be opposed to the advice of everyone else who is using some kind of solvent or cleaner. (I guess opinions are like you know what......everyone's got one! ) You can bet now that I've run into these problems, I'll pay more attention to regular cleaning of the diamond surfaces.

Next time I have a need for a new diamond hone, I don't see any reason why the Lacer diamond slip stone couldn't be just as good as a cone shape.....with a bit of practice......but, I'm set for diamond hones for quite some time in the future. I do think I'd be a little more positive about the Lacer hone, if he had one in a cone shape......

I never really gave it much thought before, but I think I like the way the cone shape works because as you pass the cone through the flute, the contacting surface naturally climbs up the side of the flute with perfect contact......without the need for tilting a more rounded side progressing to a flat side, such as with a tapered slipstone shape.

ooc

 

[Bill Boehme]

I am probably having as much trouble as you are with wrapping my brain around how to use the diamond honing tool that I don't use as opposed to the one that I do. I suppose that with some practice that I might be able to use a cone.

Maybe there is a reason that there exists so may different kinds of hones.

Merry Christmas everybody.

 

[odie]

I am probably having as much trouble as you are with wrapping my brain around how to use the diamond honing tool that I don't use as opposed to the one that I do. I suppose that with some practice that I might be able to use a cone.

Maybe there is a reason that there exists so may different kinds of hones.

Merry Christmas everybody.

Heh,heh,heh.......'round here, we do have to keep reminding ourselves that everyone has their own ways of doing things. Results are the one and only thing that count, and there is more than one way to reach that final destination!

Merry Christmas!

ooc

 

[Lyle Rawlins]

Two things to consider when using diamond hones.

1. The diamond is a single layer deep, so there isn't much of it.

2. There is a chemical reaction that occurs when grinding steel with diamond that breaks down the diamond.

Diamonds after all are a form of carbon and iron & steel have an attraction to carbon.

This is why CNB was invented was to get the performance of diamond for grinding hard steel without the problems of steel & diamond.

It seems that someone figured out that diamond hones would be a quick sell for sharpening even if it was the wrong abrasive being used.

Bye

 

[Bill Boehme]

If you are thinking of carburizing, it can't be done with diamonds in a hand hone since extremely high temperatures are necessary. Carburizing is not a chemical reaction ... it's a high temperature diffusion process. Carbon monoxide and charcoal are the normal ingredients for carburizing. The hand held diamond hone wear out because the binder is the weak link, not because the diamond is dissolving or reacting.

 

[Todd Williams]

tapered vs cone

I have used the Lacer stone for many years with satisfying results. I do scrub it with WD40 and an old toothbrush every so often.

My real reason for replying is to correct the last post about diamonds' reacting with steel.

Diamonds do react with iron even at low temperatures. In my working life I was associated with some extremely precise diamond machining operations. No steel was ever machined because of erosion of the diamond cutting tools. This machining was done with a very carefully thermostatically-controlled oil shower near room temperature, so the temperature was never "high".

However, you must realize that this machining operation could not tolerate change of the diamond cutters by more than a few nanometers (thousandths of a micron). Further, the diamond tools were used for many miles of cutting before having to be replaced, even avoiding iron. How many miles of gouge edges have you sharpened lately?
That kind of wear would, I think, never be noticed in a 600 grit sharpening stone. However, that kind of wear could conceivably contribute to slight dulling of super sharp crystalline diamond edges.

So, IMHO the loss of performance of a diamond honing stone is most likely due to loss of super sharp diamond edges due to normal mechanical abrasion (even diamonds do wear out over a long time), loss of diamond particles from binder failure, and clogging of the surface by metal particles.