tips on finishing SOFT wood -- Alaska yellow cedar

[Zach LaPerriere]

Hello All,

Thanks for being here. This is my first post, so I must be in the right place...

I've been turning a lot of Alaska yellow cedar (not green.) Just bowls, no center turning. It's been a little difficult to finish, and prone to grain tear-out. Some of my cedar is dry and seasoned, and some is from a big tree that blew down a few years ago but only recently milled, so it's still pretty moist.

Does anyone have any suggestions or resources for turning these woods cleaner?

I'm aware that part of this is due to me being newer to turning and sharpening. Honing the edge of my bowl gouge and scrapers has helped. I've also had some luck in honing a scraper and putting a burnishing lightly.

Water on the yellow cedar as well as paste wax have helped, too. I'm also curious what others have used for paste wax to cut end grain cleaner.

I'm just hoping to have less sanding, and possibly learn to cut cleaner and faster.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Bill Boehme]

The best advice would be to hook up with an experienced turner who would be able to show you the basics of using your tools to minimize tearout on end grain. Baring that, there are a couple good videos by David Ellsworth and Bill Grumbine. There are also a lot of YouTube videos, but some of those are not good for learning the right way to do things. If you search for John Lucas or Lyle Jamieson, you will find some good online videos.

 

[Hu Lowery]

welcome!

Zach,

First a welcome from another newcomer. I don't know about your variety of cedar but the native stuff down here in Louisiana is some sorry wood to turn. real prone to cracking and splitting, be sure you have it attached to the lathe very securely!

If you are finishing with lacquer you might try thinned lacquer to soak into the wood when you are getting close to shape. Thinning most finishes will let them soak in and help.

I will second everything Bill said too. Lyle Jamieson's youtube stuff is pretty comprehensive and very well done. I would look first at his various cuts then look over his other stuff too. John Lucas certainly knows his business but it has been a while since I have looked at his video's so I don't remember much about them.

You don't say how long you have been turning but we all have to walk before we fly. Taking your time and not rushing the wood is a good idea. Also keep a bottle of water by your lathe and spritz the piece now and then and before you leave the lathe for even a few minutes. A barely damp towel to drape over the piece if you stop for lunch or something helps too.

Sharpening and tool handling both take some experience and some woods are tough for even the best to turn. Here is where most of my cedar went that was old, dry, and cracking!

Hu

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Thanks, Bill and Hu!

I will check out the videos of those mentioned. I've been following Richard Raffan closely in his books and videos. So far I've found him to be the most benefit to increasing my skills. I have looked at John Lucas's videos, too, and he's amazing as well.

I'm pretty new to turning, so points well taken on walking before flying. It's funny: I've been a carpenter, finish carpenter, contractor, woodworker—pretty much full-time working wood for most of the last 20 years... But turning is starting over again, in many respects. It's both humbling and exciting. And occasionally, darn frustrating!

I'll post what I learn and what's helpful over the next weeks.

Best,
Zach

P.S. Hu, is that new drying technique faster than a microwave?

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Update: MUCH better

The trick seems to be going much sharper.

I tried bumping up the fineness on honing after grinding, and it worked beautifully.

Scrapers responded best to 1200 grit (the green on DMT stones.) I honed the top first, then formed the hook by honing the bevel.

I could hone a fair bit coarser for bowl and spindle gouges. 600 (red on DMT) on the bevel and 325 diamond slipstone (blue on DMT) for the flute. I know that's a bit silly to hone the flute with a coarser grit, but that's all I have. I might purchase a small 800 grit CBN honing stone with the convex sides for honing flutes, and the flat face for bevels.

There's a great article in American Woodturner, "Refining the Edge–Skews and Gouges," 24.2 pages 22–27, which can be accessed and viewed here, when logged in:

http://www.woodturner.org/?page=JournalArchivesLand

I didn't hone for as long as the authors, and I honed finer than the 600 grit they mentioned. I would say I usually didn't hone for more than 30 seconds total.

 

[Dean Center]

Zach,
I may be mistaken, but I don't believe most people feel the need to hone bowl gouges. Woodturning doesn't require the same edge as woodcarving. You may be investing a lot of effort in a direction that will ultimately not be your key to success. Having a sharp tool is critical and I'm pretty convinced that our skill in turning progresses in direct relationship to our progress in sharpening, but that's sharpening off a grinding wheel (of several different sorts, or a belt sander) and not a slipstone.

I second the suggestion to have a hands on session with an experienced turner. You can learn more in a few hours with another turner than you can in months of working by yourself.

I've seen some Alaska yellow cedar, which is not at all botanically the same as the 'cedar' we have in the lower 48. What I've seen has been a little on the soft side but it should turn well, without a lot of surprises. (maybe like cherry, but just a very little softer) It may be a sensitizer, so you should consider wearing a respirator when turning dry or sanding. You're very fortunate to have a wood to turn that is pretty exotic for the rest of us.

Good luck.

 

[robo hippy]

I had some one bring some Alaskan Yellow Cedar a few years back to turn for him. For cedar, it is really hard, but no where near other hard woods, and the scent just about drove me out of the shop. If your tools are sharp, for finish cuts, go slow on your pushing. There is always a strong tendency to try to cut too fast, especially as you get hear the dead center, dead as in it is moving so slow, it almost isn't moving at all. Scrapers will not give a good finish surface on bowl orientation, but can do a nice job on end grain work. High shear angle cuts better, so on outside, drop the handle, and on the inside, roll the tool over to 3 o'clock and gently push. Of course there are lots of specialty tools you can get too. I also have a lot of bowl turning clips up if you type in robo hippy on You Tube.

robo hippy

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Thanks!

Dean— I agree on finding an experienced turner. I know of a couple, and will be tracking them down shortly. A lot to be said for experience!
Regarding honing, I've read a few folks (like Richard Raffan) who mention honing for fairly soft woods. Point still taken about sharpening experience and tool/cutting experience. I've been learning that how the tool is presented is more important than sharpness—but the softer woods I've been turning still tear out a bit.
You're right about yellow cedar being a sensitizer. Most of my friends who work with it can't go near it. I've escaped so far, by being careful. Wonderful wood, nonetheless! Thanks a lot for your comments.

Robo Hippy— Great points on finishing cuts. I ground a spindle gouge down to 60° on the bevel and cut as you suggested and had pretty good results on dry, seasoned yellow cedar. Wet yellow cedar is very clean. I'm not getting the results I would like with scrapers on dry cedar, but it's passable. I'm thinking a finer CBN wheel would help, rather than my 120 friable Norton. A little honing is still helping.
I've already seen a number of your videos, and hats off to you, I've learned a lot. You beat me to the chainsaw chopsaw! I have a Logosol M8 I was thinking to use. I've been chainsaw milling a lot recently, and some of the bigger slabs are great for bowls.

Thanks again, both of you. Much appreciated

 

[Hu Lowery]

speed drying

Zach,

The secret to speed drying is injecting diesel at a high enough pressure to atomize it, I don't think a microwave in the world can hang with me then!

Like you I don't have a fine slipstone handy. I use a round 320 grit hone sometimes to clean the burr out of the flute but seems to me like I just dull the gouge if I push into it so I just lay it flat and drag it out. I have found a piece of sandpaper folded a few times to stiffen it and then folded over without creasing it so that it fills the flute and again just dragging it out to work well too. Got sugar build up in my flute and discovered my honed bowl gouge is sharp enough to cut through a quarter inch of damp paper towel and cut my thumb without being able to feel it cut; my finger too, I'm a slow learner!

Hu

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

The secret to speed drying is injecting diesel at a high enough pressure to atomize it, I don't think a microwave in the world can hang with me then!

Hu— Now I'm looking for a used locomotive diesel to help with that atomizing...


Honing. There are some great resources on honing in past issues of American Woodturning and in the 1 1/2 AAW video. Alan Lacer mentions in the video (starts at 1:01:00) an old production turner who ground his tool only once a day while turning two gross of spindles per day. And that was before HSS...the secret was honing.

Here's the link to both the video and the e-book Sharpening Turning Tools. I'm sure you'll need to be signed into the AAW site:

http://www.woodturner.org/?page=Sharpening

Alan Lacer also does great tests toward the end of the book on kiln-dried poplar, showing (with photos) that a quickly honed edge is superior for a finer surface.

Another article suggested that burning scrapers with a diamond stone was just as good as with a carbide burnisher. My limited tests showed that burnishing with a diamond stone is far better than carbide.

Anyone else want to weigh in?

 

[hockenbery]

LHoning is essential for the skew chisel. It must cut in both directions and have no burr.
Also architectural spindles are often delivered paint grade which means they are unfinished and often unsanded.
Any references in spindle turning will reccomend honing.

Spindles cannot be sanded much or with low numbered grits because it will soften the details.

When I turn Christmas ornament finials I use a skews and spindle gouges. I sand with 320 and 400 with one exception I turn a deep cove where the finial come off the ball I have to sand the bottom of the cove with 220 about 2/3 of the time if I'm lifting the fibers just a wee bit at the end of the cut

We used to turn a bunch of red cedar bird houses about 2" high and an inch in diameter.
We did not sand many of them. We sold everyone we could make at $15 a piece and sherry and I working together made about 30 an hour.

You won't find to many bowl and hollow form turners who hone their gouges.
Some do.
It can't hurt unless you roll the edge over and make the tool dull.
Most hole form and bowl turners do some shear scraping on the outside of the form to reduce the sanding.
Scraping is not practice for spindles and it doesn't work at all on most spindles.
Lots of folks use a diamond hone or a slip stone to raise the burr on a scraper. The burr does not last long and the hone can bring it back 2-4 times before grinding.
Al

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Thanks, Al. Good advice, all around. Those red cedar bird houses sound great. There's a beauty in the learning curve of production, getting things down to the absolute simplest. I've done that with drawers and other projects, but never on the lathe.

It's funny, but I haven't touched a skew in months. I've been on a bowl bender, but have been saving off cuts for spinning tops and such. You've inspired me to dust off the skew and do some center turning again.

Update: I got the 800 grit CBN hone/slipstone, and I'm really enjoying it. The CBN feels like it's faster than the 600 grit diamond I was using, and the curved edge is perfect for polishing flutes. I like the shape for burnishing an edge on scrapers. It makes sharpening a little funner.