Tool Review (Ci1 Easyrougher)

[odie]

Keith, if you enjoy turning, and you like your finished product, I'll say your on exactly the right track.

......and, I'd have to agree!

OOC

 

[GA Darling]

Well I am glad to see the Ci1 Rougher getting some time. I've been looking at this tool for quite a while now but other than the video have not heard anything about it until this thread. Thanks, i see one in my future.

 

[Dan Mosley]

The Ci1 is a great tool for "roughing" and it works quickly and easily if you use it correctly. I am not saying that because i have one - i am saying that because it simply works and does so safely.
Can you use it as a finish tool ? yes, but other tools work equally as well and it is not meant to be a "All In One" tool or take the place of any tool in your collections.
I bought the tool as a "upgrade" to my turning tools.

From the other posts where some have remarked about wanting to know the physics.....the composition......and the complexities that make up the final product to prove it can do what other tools cant I have a couple simple remarks to add:

1)..........your other tools will perform the same job - I agree and they will. However, like any upgrade to your tools the Ci1 does it better, safer and faster and is just a nice tool to have for roughing.
2)............instead of debating it to the ground as i am not a metal machinist, nor do i know the physics of the tool........I would strongly suggest you just call Craig and talk to him yourself.......he is always glad to discuss the tool and is a semi retired metal machinist by trade -

 

[john lucas]

Well I'll admit I don't own one but I find it hard to believe it is a finishing tool. I've used a lot of scrapers, ground at a lot of different angles and sharpened it a lot of ways. Probably the best is my John Jordan shear scraper. None of them give me the finish I can get directly off the gouge or certain cuts using the Hunter tool. If your idea of a finish cut is being able to start sanding with 80 or 120 grit then it might be a finishing tool. I try to get a finish that allows me to start sanding at 220 or above if at all possible. I don't mean for this to come across as nasty so please don't take it that way. It's just my perception of a finish cut may be different than some others.
I don't want to argue the merits of the tools because it seems to do what it was designed to do, remove a lot of wood quickly.

 

[Tom Lewis]

I have the easy rougher and would not like to be without it. I don't use it as a finishing tool, but for truing up out of round bowl blanks I don't think there is anything better.
I posted a thread and pictures on Sawmill Creek Turners forum for any who care to look there.

 

[Wyatt Holm]

I somewhat agree with Odie about the usefulness of this tool. If I were to get one I wouldn't buy the whole tool. I would just buy the carbide tip and build the rest of it. I have not replied sooner because the tool does not interest me. I do not consider myself a pro but I have copied a lot of their techniques. The reason I would get one is for roughing burls. Buy the way if any of you use this tool a lot, and have replaced the tip a few times, can I buy the old one from you?

 

[odie]

I somewhat agree with Odie about the usefulness of this tool. If I were to get one I wouldn't buy the whole tool. I would just buy the carbide tip and build the rest of it. I have not replied sooner because the tool does not interest me. I do not consider myself a pro but I have copied a lot of their techniques. The reason I would get one is for roughing burls. Buy the way if any of you use this tool a lot, and have replaced the tip a few times, can I buy the old one from you?

Wyatt.......

You know......I had a private message from someone who didn't want to get involved with this thread. I guess I don't blame him at all. He did exactly what you proposed.....purchased a cutter tip and made his own tool holder and handle for testing within his woodturning circle of friends at his local AAW chapter. The tool is now unused, and they have gone back to doing things the way they used to do. (Moderators, you can verify this if you wish.....just respect the man's privacy, as is his wish.)

My question remains unanswered. (post #32) I have felt from the beginning that the question isn't an unreasonable one to ask. If there is no answer to it, then one can reasonably make a few assumptions about how the EasyRougher compares to more traditional tools.

OOC

 

[C Edward Moore]

Good Tool!

Three serious turners did a short test drive of my new Ci1 today. The conclusion was immediate and unanimous! This tool works as advertised. We made healthy cuts across a bowl blank and were suitably impressed. The tool is very well made and worth its price. Somehow I think two new tools are about to be purchased by my esteemed colleagues.

There has been a lot of whining in this thread and after trying the tool today I have concluded that the whining was just that - whining! And the value of that whining is about the same as that of a can of condensed weasel urine.

So until you've tried it, don't knock it.

 

[Wolbergb]

Carbide in general

The metal turners have gone away from HSS to carbide because it can turn faster, the edge is consistant, and you don't have learning curve to sharpen them. And we now find our hobby facing the same thing. The carbide is a more expensive production (and perhaps abuse) orientated tool while the HSS is more available to everyone. I like the thought that HSS is cheaper but think that perhaps the carbide is better in tough situations. But yet if it were somthing like a bark inclusion or other grit I may still use HSS rather than destroy the carbide edge. EASE VS. COST
Bruce

 

[Steve Worcester]

Wyatt.......

You know......I had a private message from someone who didn't want to get involved with this thread.....
(Moderators, you can verify this if you wish.....just respect the man's privacy, as is his wish.)
OOC

For the record, we can't read your private messages. Moderators or administrators.

 

[odie]

For the record, we can't read your private messages. Moderators or administrators.

OK, Steve.....thanks.

I suppose it's just as well. Because of the way things looked like they were going on this thread, my thought was there might be a few who thought I might be manufacturing a little evidence to show there were some who aren't impressed with the EasyRougher....or, the principle by which it's used, anyway.......

If there were something physically different about the EasyRougher that was demonstrable to be different in some way (other than what material it's made from) over a similarly sharpened HSS scraper, I could probably be convinced to try one out.

For those of you who've been on this forum for some time, you might remember I wrestled with the exact same questions when contemplating the Hunter carbide tool, as well. Since I wasn't aware of it, someone pointed out that the Hunter carbide insert was physically different than a HSS scraper's cutting edge, in that it had a recessed top edge......making it's cutting edge angle more acute. It was this fact that convinced me to purchase a Hunter tool.

I just don't have the money to buy every new woodturning invention to come along.......and, I admit I am a pretty tough nut to crack! In order for me to spend "experimental" money on something, I MUST feel justified in any decision to do so, and can reasonably expect to see an improvement over methods I currently use........

otis of cologne

 

[KEW]

Odie,

I do own this tool and my earlier post was an attempt to state what this tool is good at. However, if you are looking for a justification to purchase it, I don't believe you would be happy with it.
When I got mine, it did not replace other tools, and I do not by any means consider it a "must have". I still pull it out and play with it on occasion. It is a tool that performs as advertised, but it doesn't eclipse any of my other tools (except for edge holding ability). I can't say I regret buying the tool because it is interesting playing with it. But if I could get my money back for it (to try out another toy), I would!
I infer that you are a more experienced turner than I, and, as such, I think you would also get minimum utility out of it.
That said, Craig has made an interesting tool which seems both effective and safe in the hands of a novice. I sincerely believe I could grab someone off of the street and they could successfully turn items without the normal learning curve for tool technique.

 

[Marc Ruby]

I have a cheaper version of the EZ-rougher which I've used a few times. I don't use it for bowl roughing but for shear scraping pen blanks where there are metal inlay inclusions. Works great for that. Cuts through silver like it wasn't there. I'd recommend it - If you come over to www.penturners.org and look up a fellow called bitshird he'll make you one, for considerably less than the EZ-rougher.

I don't have any use for it as a roughing tool, though. I have four very sharp bowl gouges and I can rough out a bowl lickety split. It is, after all, not the carbide that makes the cut in the wood, but the sharp edge. Equally sharp edges cut equally fast. If someone tries to tell you different, get suspicious. I also don't care for the idea of making stepped cuts, which I then have to go back over with a gouge anyway. And if I did want to do that I have some very sharp scrapers. It doesn't take any longer to sharpen on of them than it does to fiddle with a cutting bit.

My 2 cents.

Marc

 

[Ron Sardo]

I own this tool,
I use this tool,
and I'm happy with the results.

I can shape the outside of a hollow form faster than any scraper or gouge I own. I'm talking about square corners to a smooth shape.

While I can get a good cut, I don't consider this a finishing tool. I still clean up the outside with one or two passes with a gouge.

When the bit dulls I will buy another bit. No big deal.

JMO - YMMV

 

[Frank Townend]

Just finished a Myrtle vase and used the Ci1 Easy Rougher start to finish.

 

[larryshap]

About the C1

Hi Everyone,

My first post here.

I read about the C1 on this site, a few weeks ago.

I bought one last week, and used it on some dry 14" Mesquite. It was the easiest tool I have found, to rough/round out, after using the chain saw.

It took me about 8 minutes to turn an octogon into a circle and make a jaw-chuck tenon; and I was suprised at the ease of the roughing process.

I have used a Tormek for 6 years, and I know sharp. The carbide tip on the C1 seems to do very well, for roughing. I also used it for roughing out the inside of the bowls, but still use my gouges and scrapers for fine tuning and finishing.

This will not replace my hss tools, but is an addition to my entire process of woodturning.

I work in a machine shop, and we have the carbide sharpeners for our metal lathes. I will try sharpen the bit when it dulls, and let you know how this works.

I will be trying it out on an endgrain box this weekend, and see how it works.

I would highly recommend this tool for anyone who has to rough out a tree to get started.

Thanks,

Larry

Las Vegas

 

[Bill Travelstead]

I am not an owner nor am I the president of the company.....but from the videos I've seen I'd think the Rougher would be quite useful for them that's turning big honkin blanks.

On YouTube Blair Davis has a two part video about just this. He's got a large blank that he works on with a bowl gouge. It takes him forever to nibble off wood until the piece is finally round. If the Rougher really is as good as advertised, he could speed up his work many, many times.

Does anyone who works with really large blanks use the Rougher ? Got any pics or videos of it in use ?

 

[Wyatt Holm]

So, that is how he does it. I have done larger bowls than that, faster than he did, and I used a gouge.

 

[Chipe]

I just got one. I love it.

 

[Keith Burns]

So, that is how he does it. I have done larger bowls than that, faster than he did, and I used a gouge.

How about doing a video of you doing that, I think we would all like to see it.

 

[Doug Thompson]

How about doing a video of you doing that, I think we would all like to see it.

Take a class from Johannes Michelsen, he'll show you how it's done.

 

[Keith Burns]

Doug, I've met him and seen him turn. So what. There are people that use bowl gouges and those who don't, so what. Just because someone likes doing it with a given tool or a given brand, does it make them wrong ? No ! It always amazes me that people always try to run down a tool when they have not used it. I have not used a Thompson Bowl Gouge. Does that make me wrong because I use a Pro PM ? I don't think so. But I will NOT say it is a bad tool or a "wrong" tool to anyone until I try it. Same with a Hunter.

 

[Doug Thompson]

Craig, as we talked about in Nashville... I broke the rule and made a comment on a thread about your tool... see how fast it happens.

Keith, I was responding about the comment about making a video to compare how one tool roughs over another, there are many tools that people learn to use that will rough a bowl blank just as fast. Johannes teaches a very safe method to efficiently rough a blank with a bowl gouge, others use scrapers or even a SRG with great results.

I made no comment one way or the other about Craig's product but now I will. The way the tool is designed (when held flat on the tool rest) this tool will cut left, right or plunge into the blank with little effort. For some woodturners this is the easiest way to rough a blank, for some it doesn't feel natural to turn like this. Bottom line is use what works for you.

I never want to hear about a video being made to compare the speed of one tool to another... excess speed is a accident waiting to happen. You do know the video was shot at 1,500 to 2,000 rpm... this is fine for the video but way to fast. What if someone tried to make a video at that speed and the blank came apart... a close call, accident or something worse might happen... a video is a bad idea. Don't ask someone to do something unsafe.

On a business side of this, vendors do get along and it doesn't matter what product people purchase we root for each other... we are not competing against each other.

BTW - I do own one of Craig's tools long before most people ever heard about it... also a Hunter (the new style)

 

[Keith Burns]

My apologies Doug, I took your comment wrong, bad day, no excuse. I should let others duke it out.

 

[Doug Thompson]

Keith,
No appolgies needed, your post proves one thing... you didn't waste your money and that's the way it should be when you purchase a tool.

To all; Do understand Craig and I don't compete... it's like apples and oranges.

 

[Vaughn]

...This tool, and users will take this as a personal attack, doesn't enhance skill. That isn't a reflection of what those people are capable of or have the potential to do. This tool removes the development stage of skill, both in turning and in sharpening...

Perhaps it doesn't enhance the set of abilities that you consider to be skills, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't enhance other abilities. (And some of us might consider those other abilities to be skills in their own right.) I can sharpen and use bowl gouges and scrapers just fine, and use them on virtually every piece I do, thanks. (The skew is still a work in progress, but I do work at it.) I still have more to learn, and will continue to do so. But my using a Ci1 doesn't prevent me from getting better with my other tools and improving my abilities. I also use a captive hollowing rig, so I suspect I'm missing out on a whole other set of skills that you feel are important, but at the end of the day, if the form is right, the finish is right, and the wood looks good, I don't see that it matters what tools someone uses to get there. You used the Ci1 and weren't impressed. Others have used it and been impressed. That may diminish your opinion of them, but it doesn't diminish their skills.

There was quite possibly a school of thought many years ago that turners who used electric lathes were also not acquiring the required skills to turn properly. Turns out the electric lathe opened up a whole new realm of possibilities, and brought on some completely new skill sets.

To address Odie's question, I don't know how it does what it does, but it does it well, in my opinion. I suspect if you made a HSS scraper with the same cross section as the bar on the Ci1 and put a three-sided cutting edge on it with the same bevel, the performance would be very similar to the Ci1, aside from needing to sharpen it pretty frequently along the way. Sounds like the replaceable cutting edge would not fit your needs and wants, and since you've already got other ways to get satisfactory results, then no, it's likely not worth it for you to spend money to experiment with the Ci1.

I was a serious doubter about the tool (and a vocal naysayer) until I tried one. People said "it's faster" and my response was "what's the hurry?" Once I used it, I realized speed was just part of it. Ease of use, control, and less physical and mental stress are a big part of the value to me.

 

[odie]

To address Odie's question, I don't know how it does what it does, but it does it well, in my opinion. I suspect if you made a HSS scraper with the same cross section as the bar on the Ci1 and put a three-sided cutting edge on it with the same bevel, the performance would be very similar to the Ci1, aside from needing to sharpen it pretty frequently along the way. Sounds like the replaceable cutting edge would not fit your needs and wants, and since you've already got other ways to get satisfactory results, then no, it's likely not worth it for you to spend money to experiment with the Ci1.

Thanks for your input, Vaughn.....

What you are stating here, is pretty much the conclusion I've formed. I, too, feel that a scraper with as much mass, rigidity, and sharpened in the same way.....WILL, indeed, perform similarly.

Some of those who posted here gave me the impression they were saying the Easyrougher was not just as good, but BETTER. If they made their comparisons based on a standard width scraper of say 3/16" thick, I can see how they might come to that conclusion. When I asked for differences in the "physics" of the cut, I was attempting to find out a specific reason why the Ci1 is better......and that never did materialize......and still hasn't.

For those of you that are happy with your Ci1......great! Go for it! It's beyond me to try to talk you out of yours, and you must realize my whole thrust here was to determine if the Ci1 was something I might want to purchase. Since there has never been anything other than "it's just better" to substantiate the claims, I can't justify my own purchase of one.

otis of cologne

 

[Rob Wallace]

Sorry for the interruption....

... but I'd like to ask a question that doesn't involve the debate about owning the tool or not, gouge vs. Easyrougher, etc.

I'd like to know the PRACTICAL difference between using a square sided carbide insert and a radius-edged carbide insert in the roughing mode.

What advantage is gained by using a radius-edged insert in scraper mode versus the square sided insert?

Couldn't a square sided insert do the same job?? (Just trying to figure out the geometry of the cuts....)

If anyone can answer my questions, I'd be appreciative.

This concludes my inquiry about the Easyrougher Tool......

.....we now return you to the 'dead horse' debate already in progress.....

Rob Wallace