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Trouble sharpening

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today i but a green maple log on. Started turning with 1 1/4 spindle gouge. Not good went to grinder then back to wood . Beautiful couple feet long 1/4 to 1/2 inch shavings. Then i changed to my other tools bowl gouge and spindle gouge. Riding bevel no shavings. Cutting not so good. Went to my one way sharpening jig with 120 grit blue wheel then back to wood. Same problem. Chisels seem good. Last thing i turned was a type of rosewood. Really gummy and oily. All my tools seem to be having trouble.

What am i doing wrong. I dont have a stone that can touch up inside of tool. There seems to be a bit of gum inside groves. My scrapers work good though. I think the last wood i cut was dalmata.
 

john lucas

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It still sounds like a sharpening problem. You may not be getting it sharp. You may be grinding but if you don't see sparks coming over the tip you may not have ground all the way to the cutting edge. You should also be able to feel a slight burr on the inside of the flute. To polish the flute which will help get it reallly sharp just go to your local fishing store and buy a round diamond fish hook sharpening tool. They work wonderful for polishing the inside. You only need a few strokes to just polish that last millimeter. That gets rid of the burr and polishes the inside and really does help. If you only have one long bevel on your tools try doing a secondary bevel to get rid of a lot of that metal. This makes it quicker and easier to get the main bevel really sharp. The gum on the inside really doesn't affect the cut much but I keep a cheap brass wire brush handy to clean up that mess if it bothers me. I hear people complaining all the time about this wood not cutting or that wood being hard to cut. I have turned the hardest woods out there and have no problem. I have sharp tools. You can't take a big shaving off of really hard wood but they still cut very easily if your tools are truely sharp. Some metal such as the Partical Metal tools like Doug Thompson's may take a little bit longer at the grinder to get the edge really sharp. But not much. I only noticed this while working on my latest sharpening article where I tried to discover how sharp a tool really gets. At 5000x magnification you really start to see that.

Here is a video that shows how I do that secondary bevel as well as grinding off the bottom shoulder of the bevel. After watching this again I see I need to make a newer one. My techniques have changed just a little but are basically the same.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbggxj2kgyc
 
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I bought a Rikon low speed grinder- best investment I have ever made for turning. Plus I got the Wolverine jig for sharpening- didn't get the skew attachment. On the list for later. I also bought the set of DMT diamond files to touch up turning tools and anything else that needs a good edge.
Woodcraft sends me Thank You notes every so often.
I attended a meeting where John Lucas demonstrated sharpening different tools with different methods. Worth the drive and dinner.
 
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It still sounds like a sharpening problem. You may not be getting it sharp. You may be grinding but if you don't see sparks coming over the tip you may not have ground all the way to the cutting edge. You should also be able to feel a slight burr on the inside of the flute. To polish the flute which will help get it reallly sharp just go to your local fishing store and buy a round diamond fish hook sharpening tool. They work wonderful for polishing the inside. You only need a few strokes to just polish that last millimeter. That gets rid of the burr and polishes the inside and really does help. If you only have one long bevel on your tools try doing a secondary bevel to get rid of a lot of that metal. This makes it quicker and easier to get the main bevel really sharp. The gum on the inside really doesn't affect the cut much but I keep a cheap brass wire brush handy to clean up that mess if it bothers me. I hear people complaining all the time about this wood not cutting or that wood being hard to cut. I have turned the hardest woods out there and have no problem. I have sharp tools. You can't take a big shaving off of really hard wood but they still cut very easily if your tools are truely sharp. Some metal such as the Partical Metal tools like Doug Thompson's may take a little bit longer at the grinder to get the edge really sharp. But not much. I only noticed this while working on my latest sharpening article where I tried to discover how sharp a tool really gets. At 5000x magnification you really start to see that.

Here is a video that shows how I do that secondary bevel as well as grinding off the bottom shoulder of the bevel. After watching this again I see I need to make a newer one. My techniques have changed just a little but are basically the same.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbggxj2kgyc
A side question about sharpening. A attended a jimmy clewes workshop and he said a 120 blue stone is all you need to sharpen your tools. A rough sharpening is what you need for woodturning.now i see people sharpening on a tormek system. This is not rough sharpening. To someone out there that has sharpened on both systems and used these tools which sharpening system cuts better and holds edge the longest.

Thanks for video just going to watch it.
 
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What kind of sharpening system do you have now? Buying a completely new system, before mastering what you have, is probably not a good strategy. Finding a mentor that can teach you how to sharpen with your equipment is the optimum situation. I only used 120 grit wheels for decades before switching one side of the grinder to a CBN wheel. It's nice not having to dress the wheel any longer, but new or more equipment hardly ever builds skills.
 
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What kind of sharpening system do you have now? Buying a completely new system, before mastering what you have, is probably not a good strategy. Finding a mentor that can teach you how to sharpen with your equipment is the optimum situation. I only used 120 grit wheels for decades before switching one side of the grinder to a CBN wheel. It's nice not having to dress the wheel any longer, but new or more equipment hardly ever builds skills.
The reason i asked was i was wondering if it was wise to get a cbn wheel for my slowspeed grinder to use with my wolverine system . Ie a finer grit than my 120 grit blue wheel. The question being i guess. What are the pros and cons of staying with 120 grit blue wheel sharpening(jimmy clewes way) or going up to a fine grit cbn wheel. In my mind the finer the grind the better. I did not really understand the rough sharpen concept being better than something sharpened to a razor blade.
 

john lucas

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Well it depends. I tool sharpened on a higher grit such as the Tormek will be sharper, hold an edge longer and leave a cleaner surface. There was an article in the British publication Woodturning that proved this many years ago. What happens is an edge that comes to a sharper point takes longer to get to the "dull" stage than an edge that has a less than sharp edge. Alan Lacer had an article in American Woodturner about 2 years ago proving that honing an edge improved the cut. He had microphotographs of the edge and also did close ups of a cut surface. Glen Lucas uses the Tormek and turns a thousand bowls a year. My friend John Jordan doesn't sharpen nearly as sharp. I haven't talked to him in a while but he as using something like 80 grit wheel. He finishes most surfaces with a shear scraper. There has been some talk about a more sawtooth edge (80 grit vs 400 grit) will actually work better on roughing green bowls. I've never really seen proof of this but I turned on an 80 grit wheel for many years before stepping up to 120 grit. If you turn dry timber and need a finish that requires almost no sanding then the higher grit you sharpen to the easier this is to achieve. For my ornament finial tools I sharpen on a 320 grit belt. If I cut carefully I just touch up the final product with 400 grit and i'm done. In the last 5 years or so I have been experimenting with higher grit and it does work. However there are other factors to consider. Most important is how easy and quick it is to sharpen. You need to sharpen often, much more often than most people do. There are other decisions as well. I will go through what I'm doing now and hopefully answer some of your questions.
I have a Tormek, a strip sander, and a grinder with 100 grit white wheel and 120 grit CBN. The sander will really get things sharp quick. I can change belts quickly and pick the grit I want. The dowside, the belts get worn fairly quickly and although not expensive it does add up. My sander is homemade and doesn't have all the neat gadgets for sharpening all my tools so I don't use it as much as I thought I might. I do love it for sharpening carving tools but don't see a real advantage for my turning tools over the CBN wheel. Another problem was getting the metal cutting belts in finer grits. The wood cutting belts that I can easily get up to 1000 grit just don't last long cutting steel. The blue ceramic belts are great. I would have to go look to see how high of a grit I was actually able to buy to tell you what it is but I'm guessing it was well under 400.
The Tormek sharpens really well but don't have running water in my shop and have to fill it each morning and dump it each night which is kind of a pain. Also I use it for sharpening other things such as planer and jointer blades as well as carving tools. The turning tools tend to groove the stone and I have to true it up to sharpen the flatter tools. This eats up the wheel and they are quite expensive to replace. I use the leather strop constantly for honing my skew and carving tools and would not give it up for that. For me as a woodworker who does other things than just turning I tend to reserve the Tormek for other sharpening. It didn't seem to have all the advantages I thought it might. The edge may be better but for me at least it isn't worth it for the other reasons.
The CBN wheel I absolutely love. It always runs true, doesn't change size as you sharpen and cuts really fast. It's a little too expensive to just go out and buy several grits to see what you like so I only have the 120. The wheels have come down in price from some companies so you can get them in different grits. This is true with all the systems. The finer the grit the longer it takes to sharpen and the easier it is to burn an edge. With HSS and Particle metal steel this isn't really a problem because a blue edge doesn't ruin the tool but if you quench then in water to cool it down you can damage the steel. If you need to change the angle of a tool it's handy to have a course wheel. I find the 120 CBN will grind fast enough I can reshape student's tools fairly quickly and still get a really good cutting edge. I keep the 100 grit white wheel for sharpening carbon steel tools. All in all I use that wheel for most of my sharpening but would like to try a higher grit. You still need a courser wheel for reshaping tools or shaping new tools so that one wheel won't do it all.
When I first started experimenting with different grits for sharpening I was using my spindle roughing gouge that I use for turning my mirrors. That tool gets a lot of use. I sharpen it much more acute than most people with a 45 degree included angle because I can rough with it and then fine tune the shape all with the same tool. I switched back and forth between grinding on the 120CBN, a 320 sanding belt, and the Tormek with the stone graded fine. There's not doubt the Tormek edge held an edge longer and the wood was cut cleaner. I think this is somewhat because the metal is more polished not just sharp. The sanding edge was faster to achieve than the Tormek and really cut clean. The CBN is still a clean cutting edge, the wheel doesn't wear out, and over all just a good all around system. After using all of these sharpening methods for several years I go back almost all the time to the CBN. It's just quick, doesn't over heat the edge and is easy to use. I am saving my money and going to buy something around 400 grit CBN just to see but I'm getting good cuts right now with the grit I use. I'm pretty sure the 400 grit will give me an edge that will stay sharp longer but it's a difficult test to prove. You have to do something like I did with my SRG cutting the same woods over and over to notice the difference. Even then just one quick trip to the grinder and will achieve more than will trying to wait to see if the tool gets dull. I like what John Jordan said one time in a class. If you think your tool needs sharpening you waited too long.
Sharpening becomes a personal thing and you will get a lot of different responses based on how people sharpen. More important I think than what grit you use is how often you sharpen. If you sharpen often enough you get curls off of any tool sharpened at any grit. So the the answer is to find a system you will not hesitate even for a second to stop and use. Then if this becomes a good habit change grit and see what you think. I just finished a test of which steel sharpens the sharpest and it will be in More Woodturning magazine in the near future. I still have one test to run and Dennis has to find the time to put in in. What I found was they all sharpen the same for all practical purposes.
I'm still experimenting and as I make or purchase more gadgets to to along with the Tormek and Sander I may change my mind in the future.
 

hockenbery

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You will get lots of opinions/preferences on wheel grits.
I sharpen my 1/2" bowl gouges on an 80 grit wheel and use them off the wheel
Spindel gouge and 1/4" bowl gouge on a 120 grit wheel. I do hone the flute with a slip stone before sharpening to clean the flute.
You can do quite nicely with a 120 grit wheel. You should dress it level, square, and to round.

Riding bevel no shavings. Cutting not so good.
You may be pushing the bevel too hard on the wood. This will keep the edge from engaging the wood to start the cut.
 
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With a grinding wheel located close to your turning station it only takes a few seconds
to raise a fresh burr on a lathe tool, or you can invest more time into sharpening and
honing the lathe tool. The CBN wheel would cut down on the amount of grinding wheel
dust left behind from a conventional grinding wheel. This can be a health hazard and
make a mess in your work space.

Many turners will sharpen there lathe tools often so they have a fresh burr that provides
a cleaner cut on the wood. Some woods that are hard to get a clean cut on will most likely
have better success with a honed edge that will provide a cleaner cut. For the average wood
turner and typical woods turned a fresh burr on a lathe tool works fine.
 
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The more serrated/more polished edge argument has been around for years. I don't think it will ever go away. The CBN wheels are the best value for a sharpening wheel as in you get a better product that costs more, but considering how long it lasts compared to standard wheels, you get far more for your money.

I have CBN wheels in 80, 180, 600, and 1000 grits. I have found that the 180 will work fine for about 90% of the turning you will ever do, except for the skew chisel, which needs to be honed, even after sharpening on the 1000 grit wheel because the burr needs to be removed. I have tried the Tormek to see if the more polished edge worked better and lasted longer, but didn't think so. With the CBN wheels, the 600 and 1000, leave a very polished edge which is excellent for softer more punky woods, but lousy for any type of heavy roughing because they go dull so quickly. My attempts at hand honing edges never got any improvements that I could tell, and that could be because I was doing it wrong, but the fine grit CBN wheels made a huge difference. With the skew, same thing, but now I hone it on my Tormek wheel. I figure this is a "individual results will vary" situation....

robo hippy
 
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The CBN wheels are the best value for a sharpening wheel as in you get a better product that costs more, but considering how long it lasts compared to standard wheels, you get far more for your money.

Depends on turning frequency to support your claim of longevity. For all but a hand full of turners in my club, an aluminum oxide wheel is a life time product. We have 65 year old guys that only turn a half dozen bigger items per year. Some of them don't turn anything bigger than a Christmas ornament. One 8" aluminum oxide wheel will last them at least a decade.

You don't mention anything about shear scraping or scraping in general. For those tools, I do like a finer grit. But for my gouges, 120 is just fine. A grinding wheel will not make you a better turner. It may make less for you to sand, but a wheel grit choice will not prevent your tools from doing a good job.
 
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the biggest thing is setup of the wolverine on your grinder with whatever grinding wheels you own now.....Kirk DeHeer has cd out for a number of years now that shows how to make jigs for different tools to get the setup right.....all it is is a gig (spacer) to use......he also had an article in American Woodturner with same info a number of years ago.....go to back issues and do search....the CD is titled Sharpening Demystified.....worth your time and your $$$$$
 

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Great thread! :D

The one thing I've found is.....the sharper you can get the edge, the better it will cut, with less sanding required. This "rule" isn't without limitations. There is a point where going to a higher grit is not worth the effort, because that minutely fine edge is just that more quick to dull. This point, is at 600gt, from my findings. I have hones at 1200gt, and that fine an edge is not worth the effort to produce it.

I've found that by honing both top and bottom of the very tip of the edge with 600gt diamond hones, the edge will be sharper than anything produced with less than 600gt. Makes sense, if you think about it.....;) Sharpen more often than you ever thought would be necessary......and, to quote John Lucas......if you wonder if you should re-sharpen, you definitely have waited too long! Given that my method of honing both top and bottom of the ground edge with 600gt necessarily takes longer, it also cuts cleaner, because it's sharper. Contrary to what you've read in this thread, a sharper edge doesn't last longer......but, that could be relative to what level of "dullness" you are ok with prior to returning to the grinder and resharpening and honing.

-----odie-----
 
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I want to thank everyone so much for taking the time ro reply. Its hard for some of us that live 3 hours from any city with a store that sells any supplies i would need. Which includes no support for any lathe questions a person might have. As a beginner your answers are like a gift from heaven. Sometimes i think I'm asking a stupid or obvious question. You woodturners take the time to answer . I can only hope someday I am on the other side of the fence and giving the new guy good advice. Thanks again.
I realize now I am definitly sharpening to late. And taking a good look at bevel and sides of my grinds they are not the best.one of my gouges was concave on the sides. From your answers consistence is the key. I might post a pic of some of my gouges so you can give me some advice. In fact I will do that now.
 
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Using a sharpening jig will help with getting a consistent edge on a tool.
With practice you can also freehand sharpen tools on the grinder.
There are a number of good video's on YouTube that cover different sharpening techniques.
 

odie

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This is my bowl gouge which is having trouble cutting.

Glenn.....Not sure I'm seeing it right, but if this is the gouge you mentioned had a concave edge on the side......that would definitely be problematic for engaging the edge to wood consistently. You want an almost straight slightly convex curve, just the opposite of what it appears you have.

This is my spindle gouge which wants to cut wood but push it up in front of blade and not cut it off.

Again, not sure I'm seeing exactly what you have there, but it appears to be a slight "glint" at the edge, as it traverses around the nose. If this is a tiny un-sharpened spot, that would explain why it's not cutting very well there......

-----odie-----
 
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Glenn.....Not sure I'm seeing it right, but if this is the gouge you mentioned had a concave edge on the side......that would definitely be problematic for engaging the edge to wood consistently. You want an almost straight slightly convex curve, just the opposite of what it appears you have.



Again, not sure I'm seeing exactly what you have there, but it appears to be a slight "glint" at the edge, as it traverses around the nose. If this is a tiny un-sharpened spot, that would explain why it's not cutting very well there......

-----odie-----
To fix the bowl gouge do i just try and take more off the nose until i achieve that slight convex curve. I noticed when i came back from the course in calgary my tools got worse and worse but where still sharp. I was oviously changing the grind slowly every time i re sharpened.
 

odie

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To fix the bowl gouge do i just try and take more off the nose until i achieve that slight convex curve. I noticed when i came back from the course in calgary my tools got worse and worse but where still sharp. I was oviously changing the grind slowly every time i re sharpened.

You know, it really is difficult to diagnose, because your photo is unclear.......but, taking off a little more on the nose, and try to gradually feather it back into the back side of the "wing" sounds like a good plan. Only way to know for sure is to experiment a little. Don't worry about it.....just keep working it until you figure it out. Half the battle is knowing what a good shape looks like, and perseverance is the way to take what you have and make it what you want......if that makes any sense! o_O

-----odie-----
 

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Professional woodturner and teacher Alan Lacer says that there is an old woodcarvers saying, "if you can see the edge, then you don't have an edge". A perfectly sharp edge has zero width and as result will not reflect any light. A dull edge will have lots of glint and sparkle. Take your sharpened tools into the sunlight to judge how sharp they really are.

I mainly use a Tormek, but the main thing is how well you use what you have.
 

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In the posted photo IMG_4403.JPG The wing is almost straight. The concave is slight and unlikely to be noticed at all. Could be a tiny bit grabby with a pull cut. A usable profile that could be better by being dead flat or having crown (which is my preference)
A dip on the wing is avoided by continually rolling the tool whenever it contacts the wheel. If you stop rolling and hold the wing facing the wheel a concave is ground into the profile of the edge

In the other photo IMG_4404.JPG I see a difference in reflectivity at the spot where muchncutting will be done.
It may be the lighting, camera angle, or a dull spot on the tool's edge.

This is a preference thing but pointy tipped bowl gougesnare harden for me to control and use so I profile my edge to be more rounded on the tip. The flute profile can effect this most Vee flutes naturally get pointy.

Sharpening the very tip requires rolling from side to side with little pressure. Too much pressure on the tip creates a dip in the tip profile which become a catch making machine,
 

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Going back to your original post, I noticed that you mentioned pitch build up on the upper edge. This stuff can bake on hard and result in the equivalent of a dull edge despite how well you grind the edge. Use a pocketknife or other sharp blade to clean the upper bevel. That usually makes a big improvement.

Sometimes wood has a lot of mineral deposits that can quickly dull tools. The worst that I ever encountered was some green black walnut. Tools would only cut for about two seconds and then nothing.
 
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Very good, John. Thanks. As I am fairly new to turning, I must say that turning is much easier and gives a better surface finish with sharp tools. I keep my low speed grinder and Wolverine jig about two steps from the lathe. A rag and DNA help to clean any crud off the tool before grinding.
 

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I broke down and bought a CBN wheel for my Tormek at SWAT. I don't think that Ken Rizza really understands the OCD nature of Tormek users because he tried to talk me into getting the 600 grit wheel. He had a Tormek stone set up with a 600 grit wheel and invited me to sharpen a spindle gouge on it. It was an nice edge, but it wasn't Tormek nice. I couldn't see spending money for an edge that was clearly not as smooth. I really wanted the 1200 grit wheel., but wound up with a 1000 grit wheel.
 
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