U flute bowl gouge

[Charlie Knighton]

anybody tried out the Henry Taylor U flute bowl gouge that craft supplies has just introduced??? comes in 1/4;3/8;1/2 inches

 

[Rob Wallace]

I haven't seen one "in person" yet, Charlie.

I bought a Thompson 3/4" U-flute gouge this summer in Tampa (recommended to me my Dale Larson), and it is an excellent addition for roughing and finishing insides of bowls. Large cross section (3/4") means a lot of resistance to vibration, and with a traditional (non-swept back) grind, it works great for final passes from rim to bottom of most bowls. The CPM-10V of the Thompson versus the M2 steel of the new Henry Taylor would be a factor in deciding which to buy (plus handle vs. no handle).

I suppose I'll have to wait to see one when I get to Phoenix next June. I just wanted to let you know there already is a CPM-10V alternative to the HT gouge that is new at Craft Supplies.

Rob

 

[MichaelMouse]

anybody tried out the Henry Taylor U flute bowl gouge that craft supplies has just introduced??? comes in 1/4;3/8;1/2 inches

Can't see a lot there that isn't available elsewhere. The regular roughing gouge will do the same thing with no heel in the way to bruise the work or force you to use the wings. It can be used inside as well, but sharp corners and a broad section are sometimes a disadvantage in confined areas. Rather than go to a side grind/cut, you might consider what I favor inside - a broad sweep 1/2 Taylor. Lee Valley sells them as "Forged Pattern" gouges. Elsewhere you will see them sold as "Continental" patterns.

Closest thing to them are "Detail" gouges where the top half of the cylinder is ground away, allowing a near uniform thickness like the gouges mentioned above. "Detail" gouges with broad sweep and thick bottoms are sold as well, but they are not as good making the turns inside.

http://s108.photobucket.com/user/MichaelMouse/media/CherryPeelIn.mp4.html With the real forged thin cheapie I got with my first lathe. He's on the left, with his HSS brother to the right. At a bit over 1/8 thick, he shows a shorter bevel to get the same sharpness angle. Doesn't flex, though. That's pretty much a red herring. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Bevels.jpg

A pattern very similar to the tool used inside bowls before cylindrical gouges, here in use outside. Where there's room, works inside without the pucker factor of sharp corners. http://s108.photobucket.com/user/MichaelMouse/media/35mmGougeRounding.mp4.html

 

[hockenbery]

Can't see a lot there that isn't available elsewhere. The regular roughing gouge will do the same thing with no heel in the way to bruise the work or force you to use the wings. It can be used inside as well, but sharp corners and a broad section are sometimes a disadvantage in confined areas. ]

SAFETY FIRST- NEVER USE A SPINDLE ROUGHING GOUGE ON BOWLS!

First and foremost, Unless you are a very advanced turner and never get catches, using a spindle roughing gouge on bowls is extremely dangerous. The tool is not built to takes the stress of bowl turning. A catch with this tool can be catastrophic. Breaking the causing sever injury, breaking the tool, breaking the tool rest, breaking the banjo.

Secondly, if you are interested in turning bowls. It is worth noting that the highly recognized bowl turners such as Glenn Lucas, Mike Mahoney,
Jerry Kermode, Al Stirt, and many others use Bowl gouges mostly with the side grind.
These individuals use the bowl gouge because they can make more bowls with it in a given time than they can with other tools.

 

[odie]

See the "product details" here:
http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/p...M2-HSS-U-Flute-Bowl-Gouge?term=taylor+u+flute

Call me skeptical, I suppose......but, I'm not really seeing any advantage to the U flute gouge.

Getting a broader cutting edge for speeding up roughing seems pretty simple.....choose a larger bowl gouge, if your lathe has the power to support a bigger cut! However, fast stock removal has never been my priority......quality of cut is. Even at the roughing stage, a good clean cut is just as important as a finish cut. This is because a poor cut will effect the grain beneath the visual at the surface. Think of it: Sure, it's possible to get a nice clean cut with a larger "bite", but the forces applied are much greater. Because of that, the likelihood of having an otherwise deceptively acceptable looking surface is increased.

It does mention the U flute has some advantage for "chip clearing". I guess that means they're suggesting the U flute will eject chips better......? I don't recall a regular bowl gouge having problems with ejecting chips.....that is, if the flute is clean.

It is true that I don't own a U flute gouge. I'm sure there will be those who will say that I'll need to buy one of these before I can pass judgment, and for those who stand to make some bucks from it......that is the point!

To my thinking, this U flute is just one more thing to separate unsuspecting turners from their money.......a solution to a problem that doesn't exist! There was a time when I bought every little "new and improved" tool and gadget touted as the "latest and greatest".....but, these days, I have to have a reasonable expectation of an improvement in my results to make me spend money on a "fishing excursion".

ooc

 

[Hu Lowery]

Henry Taylor U flute

Seems I'm as close as anybody is likely to come if it is freshly introduced. I have used the Henry Taylor ST 2000 tool with the 5/8" diameter U fluted tip. The shaft is solid until the last four inches more or less before the cutting edge so stiffness is about the same regardless of flute with this tool. Size for size I would think when talking about a standard bowl gouge the V flute or parabolic flute would be stiffer than a U flute. In actual use this just comes in play trying to take a fairly heavy cut when extended well over the tool rest so not really an issue.

The U flute worked just fine for me. No better or no worse than the parabolic flute tip that came with the tool when I got it also though. The short flutes did fill up with chips equally well when I put a thumb over them!

I think a hint about the tool is given when they mention "traditional". The full U dates back to when tools were forged instead of ground. Shaping flat bar to a curve gives a natural fairly evenly walled sidewall, a U shape. This was the result of the manufacturing process, not any indication of merit compared to other design flutes. The newer designs are based on merit for particular applications. Another thought is that some of the swept back grinds in use now work best with a parabolic flute. While they mention this gouge can be ground to a swept back configuration there may be some limitations. Working from memory I think Lyle Jamieson in particular said it was difficult or impossible to cut his grind properly on a U fluted gouge.

All this being said, if you buy one I suspect we all want to read your impressions!

Hu

 

[Dale Miner]

Odie,

I use U flutes quite a bit with a short fingernail grind. The main advantage of a U flute is not rapid stock removal. In fact, I think that the U flute is probably a bit slower than a good V flute.

The advantage to a U flute by my experience comes from the larger radius in the bottom of the flute. The larger radius makes for more shear or a longer sweet spot of shear when doing both inside and outside of bowls, but more so on the inside. The flute is rolled over to about the 1:30 position and the radius is cutting the wood with more shear than a V flute does.

I have used some V flutes that clogged, and those were gouges with a very small radius in the bottom of the flute. Not mentioning names, but the gouges were both offshore and brand name gouges.

When asked for recommendations from novices for flute shape, I recommend a V flute with a decent sized radius in the V. U flutes are more difficult to start a cut with until the concept is understood.

The extra shear of the U flute carries with it the disadvantage of more edge in play for the same depth of cut. The extra edge in play results in more cutting force required, and sometimes has an effect on tool chatter when longer overhangs are used.

Each flute shape has plusses and minuses. One pays their money and takes their chances.

Anyway, that's my two cents worth at todays special price of of two cents off.

BTW, a roughing gouge is a terribly inefficient tool for use on bowls, any depth of cut results in a very large area of cutting edge contact. Cutting forces for that large area of contact when cutting end grain become very high. Without going into the safety aspect (others have), a bowl gouge will take higher stock removal rates with less effort.

 

[robo hippy]

The more open fluted designs seem to work better when rolled more over on their sides, and a more blunt nose design, some times called fingernail or also a traditional design which has almost no sweep, which is similar to the nose profile of the standard spindle roughing gouge. Most of the time you are cutting with the nose, and being more round, there is a larger sweet spot than the nose of a deeper fluted gouge. They also make excellent bottom feeder type gouges with a 60 or 70 degree bevel, and little sweep. They don't seem to work as well as a parabolic shaped flute for a more swept back design, where you drop the handle and cut more with the wings.

robo hippy

 

[MichaelMouse]

SAFETY FIRST- NEVER USE A SPINDLE ROUGHING GOUGE ON BOWLS!

Ah, shouting and pejorative names. Apprentices and self-taught turners learned on the forged pattern U for a couple centuries. Apparently the current crop of humans can't figure it out. Reasons unknown.

I think it wise to take advice on tool usage from those who use the tools, not from those who don't or won't. Take a peek at the tool in use. http://s35.photobucket.com/user/GoodOnesGone/media/DontDoThis.mp4.html Or, use both hands if you care. You can hog as heavily or as fine as you like by adjusting the skew and there is zero chance of a catch if you cut downhill, because the sharp corner on top will always be in air as long as you have skew. You would also cut above center outside to keep air over the tool. http://s108.photobucket.com/user/MichaelMouse/media/PicturesfromGregs022.flv.html On the inside, stay below center, especially if you are going to use a tool like the new U along its left side.


Use the roughing gouge outside precisely as you use it to rough a piece between centers, providing you know how to use it there. http://s108.photobucket.com/user/MichaelMouse/media/PeelandPare.mp4.html If you don't, you can write an article on how dangerous it is to use a tool which was used all those years when there was no cylindrical choice available, without even acknowledging the fact. http://www.nickcookwoodturner.com/articles-how-not-to-turn-bowl.pdf Then you may demonstrate how not to use the tool either on a spindle, or, God help us, on a faceplate orientation. Stuffing the nose with no skew. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuGMZ3SBlYs&feature=related

All points on a uniform thickness gouge are equal, so the longer the edge, the greater the time between sharpenings. I you cut on the nose, you are always at arm's length plus away from the turning, standing upright so you don't get cricks in your back from half bending as you drop the handle. Can't imagine how those High Wycombe turners could have worked their sixteen hour days on piecework if they had to bend and peek.

You can enhance safety and comfort in a simple tool choice! Providing you are willing to learn, that is.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Odie,

BTW, a roughing gouge is a terribly inefficient tool for use on bowls, any depth of cut results in a very large area of cutting edge contact. Cutting forces for that large area of contact when cutting end grain become very high. Without going into the safety aspect (others have), a bowl gouge will take higher stock removal rates with less effort.

Yeah, it'd take forever to rough out like this. http://s108.photobucket.com/user/MichaelMouse/media/1012052.mp4.html

Learn to use the tool and you'll hardly feel a thing as you shave the wood. Any tool, presented so that it makes flying chips is improperly used.

 

[Dale Miner]

Yeah, it'd take forever to rough out like this. http://s108.photobucket.com/user/MichaelMouse/media/1012052.mp4.html

Learn to use the tool and you'll hardly feel a thing as you shave the wood. Any tool, presented so that it makes flying chips is improperly used.

To reiterate, and as your video shows, a roughing gouge is a terribly inefficient tool for roughing cross grain bowl blanks.

 

[hockenbery]

Michael,

You are going to get someone seriously hurt!

Any turner with advanced skills can successfully turn with just about any tool on just about any profile and grain orientation.

The spindle roughing gouge should not be used on bowls, except by very advanced turners.

Also the video you posted shows how slow and inefficient the spindle roughing gouge is on bowls.
The video shows you doing a bevel riding shear cut which is a very effective finish cut used by many turners using a bowl gouge with traditional grind.
If you ever have an opportunity to see Trent Bosch do a bowl demo or in a bowl video, he demonstrates the shear finish cut quite well.
Using a smaller gouge leaves a cleaner surface. The big trick is to take light cuts with the center of the right side. If you try deep cuts the tool bogs down.

I have no problem with you using the spindle roughing gouge on bowls. If you are pleased with the results.
However it is irresponsible for you to suggest it as a tool of choice to people whose skills you have not evaluated.

Al

 

[odie]

Odie,

I use U flutes quite a bit with a short fingernail grind. The main advantage of a U flute is not rapid stock removal. In fact, I think that the U flute is probably a bit slower than a good V flute.

The advantage to a U flute by my experience comes from the larger radius in the bottom of the flute. The larger radius makes for more shear or a longer sweet spot of shear when doing both inside and outside of bowls, but more so on the inside. The flute is rolled over to about the 1:30 position and the radius is cutting the wood with more shear than a V flute does.

I have used some V flutes that clogged, and those were gouges with a very small radius in the bottom of the flute. Not mentioning names, but the gouges were both offshore and brand name gouges.

When asked for recommendations from novices for flute shape, I recommend a V flute with a decent sized radius in the V. U flutes are more difficult to start a cut with until the concept is understood.

The extra shear of the U flute carries with it the disadvantage of more edge in play for the same depth of cut. The extra edge in play results in more cutting force required, and sometimes has an effect on tool chatter when longer overhangs are used.

Each flute shape has plusses and minuses. One pays their money and takes their chances.

Anyway, that's my two cents worth at todays special price of of two cents off.

BTW, a roughing gouge is a terribly inefficient tool for use on bowls, any depth of cut results in a very large area of cutting edge contact. Cutting forces for that large area of contact when cutting end grain become very high. Without going into the safety aspect (others have), a bowl gouge will take higher stock removal rates with less effort.

Thanks for your input, Dale........

I have no doubt that the U shape gouge flute has certain advantages in the hands of some experienced turners. Since I'm not feeling impaired by my regular bowl gouges, I'm having a hard time thinking there is any benefit to be had.....by me......therefore, I won't bother to purchase a U shaped flute gouge. It just seems like an additional expense in search of a better way to do something in which I'm already feeling very satisfied with the results I'm currently getting. I only speak for myself, and understand that what I think and experience may not necessarily be the same as anyone else.

As for using a roughing gouge for bowls........well, sure, it can be done. I'm having difficulty understanding why anyone would prefer the roughing gouge over a good bowl gouge.......but, each to their own!

ooc

 

[Ian Robertson]

Michael,

You are going to get someone seriously hurt!

Any turner with advanced skills can successfully turn with just about any tool on just about any profile and grain orientation.

The spindle roughing gouge should not be used on bowls, except by very advanced turners.

Also the video you posted shows how slow and inefficient the spindle roughing gouge is on bowls.
The video shows you doing a bevel riding shear cut which is a very effective finish cut used by many turners using a bowl gouge with traditional grind.
If you ever have an opportunity to see Trent Bosch do a bowl demo or in a bowl video, he demonstrates the shear finish cut quite well.
Using a smaller gouge leaves a cleaner surface. The big trick is to take light cuts with the center of the right side. If you try deep cuts the tool bogs down.

I have no problem with you using the spindle roughing gouge on bowls. If you are pleased with the results.
However it is irresponsible for you to suggest it as a tool of choice to people whose skills you have not evaluated.

Al

I agree. A bowl gouge is quicker and safer.

 

[robo hippy]

Now, if you want to get serious about heavy stock removal, you can't beat a good 3/8 inch thick by 1 inch wide scraper....... I do use spindle roughing gouges for shear finish cuts, but the way I turn, they are not a good tool for use on bowls for anything other than finish cuts on the outside of the bowl. Inside the bowl, even rolled on the side, I would not even consider it. There are other tools that work better and are safer, especially in the hands of a rookie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwlAb2BWHw8

robo hippy

 

[hockenbery]

Now, if you want to get serious about heavy stock removal, you can't beat a good 3/8 inch thick by 1 inch wide scraper....... I do use spindle roughing gouges for shear finish cuts, but the way I turn, they are not a good tool for use on bowls for anything other than finish cuts on the outside of the bowl. Inside the bowl, even rolled on the side, I would not even consider it. There are other tools that work better and are safer, especially in the hands of a rookie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwlAb2BWHw8

robo hippy

The important point you make is the SRG on bowls is for an advanced turner who is not going to get a catch.

Any tool that works for you and gives you good results is the right tool for you.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I know for certain (or at least the subliminal advertising message is telling me) that I am just one tool away from greatness. I even bought a t-shirt from Ruth Niles proclaiming that message.

And, who knows ... this tool might just be the one that catapults me over that last hurdle. But, I am in the same camp with Odie for the time being. And, I really do not have any place to store one more tool unless I go back to using a five-gallon bucket. Fame and fortune will just have to wait a bit longer.

I need to check with some of the pros about this -- how about it Al, Rob, and Dale, I'm really interested in the fortune part of this deal -- does it go hand-in-hand with greatness and/or fame? Do you think this is the tool that will do it? Technically, my turning is just fine, but I need a tool that will inspire me to come up with novel and even heretofore unimagined original creations.

(it may take me a while to tumble this one out of here)

 

[robo hippy]

Bill, you can't be serious. Only one five gallon bucket?????

robo hippy

 

[Charlie Knighton]

does it count that you put the 5 gallon bucket on a table?

 

[Dale Miner]

I know for certain (or at least the subliminal advertising message is telling me) that I am just one tool away from greatness. I even bought a t-shirt from Ruth Niles proclaiming that message.

And, who knows ... this tool might just be the one that catapults me over that last hurdle. But, I am in the same camp with Odie for the time being. And, I really do not have any place to store one more tool unless I go back to using a five-gallon bucket. Fame and fortune will just have to wait a bit longer.

I need to check with some of the pros about this -- how about it Al, Rob, and Dale, I'm really interested in the fortune part of this deal -- does it go hand-in-hand with greatness and/or fame? Do you think this is the tool that will do it? Technically, my turning is just fine, but I need a tool that will inspire me to come up with novel and even heretofore unimagined original creations.

(it may take me a while to tumble this one out of here)

Bill,

There are several U flutes in my tool rack, and so far, no noticeable magic regarding fame or fortune has taken place. There are some tools out there just over the horizon that should do it though.....

 

[hockenbery]

I know for certain (or at least the subliminal advertising message is telling me) that I am just one tool away from greatness.

I need to check with some of the pros about this -- how about it Al, Rob, and Dale, I'm really interested in the fortune part of this deal -- does it go hand-in-hand with greatness and/or fame? Do you think this is the tool that will do it? Technically, my turning is just fine, but I need a tool that will inspire me to come up with novel and even heretofore unimagined original creations.
)

Bill,

I first heard the "one tool away" expression when Don Geiger described a tool he owned but never uses. It really struck home! Easy to remember times I thought "if I just have this...."
Somewhere along the line I realized if I could learn to use the tools I had better I'd have more fun. Skills trump tools.

As far as the pro and fortune part. The fortune has been the hundreds of woodturners I have been able to meet and share woodturning with.
It is a most amazing field in which everyone shares their techniques, philosophy, and experiences. The AAW has been a major force in promoting the sharing with the Journal, the symposium, the clubs, and regional symposiums. All of these are run / supported by the membership.

The novel unimagined may come to you. I got lucky with a couple of things no one else had done
Suspended spherical forms, ball in a ball.

The suspended: forms came from a scoop demo by Soren Berger. It thought why couldn't one have two handles (Soren has since done two handles)
Then I thought the ball could be bigger and I can hold a ball in a vacuum chuck and hollow it. Then it thought I can turn profiles on the handles make them fat and shape them into legs, tails, wings.....

The ball in a ball: came from a discussion with David Springette.. David and I were talking about pinging things through holes and perhaps doing it with a golf ball.
A couple years later I tried it with two Osage Orange balls holding the larger in a vacuum chuck hollow it. Turns out the ball in a ball is just the bodger chair joint.
So I seems likely that it must have been done before....
Now there are few people doing ball in ball demos for their chapters....,

Keep having fun,
Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

Al, checked the T-shirt and it does credit Don Geiger. I had the pleasure of meeting Don a couple years ago at SWAT. He was assisting Brent English in the Robust lathe booth. Great reply -- fortune takes many forms.

 

[Rob Wallace]

I know for certain (or at least the subliminal advertising message is telling me) that I am just one tool away from greatness. I even bought a t-shirt from Ruth Niles proclaiming that message.

And, who knows ... this tool might just be the one that catapults me over that last hurdle. But, I am in the same camp with Odie for the time being. And, I really do not have any place to store one more tool unless I go back to using a five-gallon bucket. Fame and fortune will just have to wait a bit longer.

I need to check with some of the pros about this -- how about it Al, Rob, and Dale, I'm really interested in the fortune part of this deal -- does it go hand-in-hand with greatness and/or fame? Do you think this is the tool that will do it? Technically, my turning is just fine, but I need a tool that will inspire me to come up with novel and even heretofore unimagined original creations.

(it may take me a while to tumble this one out of here)

You crack me up Bill!!

Given the available data, I suppose the probability of THIS being the tool that pushes you over the top toward ultimate greatness and woodturning Nirvana is, unfortunately quite low. Since the general form of the tool already likely matches the form of many of the existing tools you already have, I would not place much faith in a "U-gouge catapult" (or even a trebuchet) for your greatness enhancement.

Now if you coupled these U-gouges with a high-tech handle, adding a side-arm anti-torque brace, a shaft that is captured between roller bars, that would use an automatically-replaceable carbide cutter guided by a LASER beam, and a cut-follower that continually ejected chips from hollow forms, then sealed the wood for even slow drying as the chips were created, and destroyed all pith without the need to identify it as a possible weakness, THEN you'd be talkin' about THE TOOL YOU NEED for greatness. I heard that this tool also includes the "Curve-o-matic Vessel Master" curve fairing software (built into the handle) that routinely and constantly evaluates all turned curves for being properly 'faired' right while you are holding the tool against the wood ; as an accessory you can buy the 'Tenon-Master' as part of the same system that cuts perfect tenons matched to your chuck jaws so you don't even have to think about it. And the REAL beauty of this latest and greatest system is that IT ALL FITS IN THE 5-gallon Plastic bucket that sits on the floor of your shop, right next to the lathe, with all of the sharp tool ends pointing up so you can easily see exactly what parts of the woodturning system you need at the time!!! WHAT COULD BE BETTER?

Even though it may cost you a fortune, YOU NEED IT! (...or did you mean that you'll MAKE a fortune?) It's the latest and greatest. The original wisdom of Mr. Don Geiger that "we are only one tool away from greatness" is fulfilled, and the microeconomics of wood tool designers, manufacturers, and users is enhanced.

And about fame - you can get there in many ways, for example by producing fantastic turned objects, inventing a new woodturning method, get noticed at an Instant Gallery, give a great demo, get injured while not using a face shield/PPE, or setting up a multi-million Ponzi scheme. I think you would agree, (with apologies to Albert Einstein), that "all fame is relative".

Rob

 

[Bill Boehme]

Mr. Rob Wallace, your words of wisdom and immeasurable insight into the inner workings of our emerging art form are most greatly appreciated.

I can tell that you have put a tremendous amount of thought into the tools of the future and I would like to offer to invest in helping to bring these products to fruition. I am sure that this venture will work out more satisfactorily than my still pending recent venture with a deposed Nigerian Crown Prince ... which I still anticipate will pay off in a big way as soon as a few minor details and misunderstandings get ironed out.

 

[Ian Robertson]

Shee Rob. I am good at spinning a yarn but that beats me.

I had to put on waders rather than my gumboots to wade through that lot.

You are truly the master of Bovine Faeces.

 

[Rob Wallace]

Shee Rob. I am good at spinning a yarn but that beats me.

I had to put on waders rather than my gumboots to wade through that lot.

You are truly the master of Bovine Faeces.

Ian - you should hear what some of my students say about my biology lectures....!!

Always fun to have fun - sometimes I simply have to laugh out loud at some of the new turning tool developments..... and occasionally laugh even louder at the prices on some of them!!

Rob

 

[Ian Robertson]

sometimes I simply have to laugh out loud at some of the new turning tool developments..... and occasionally laugh even louder at the prices on some of them!!

So do I. Rehash of old ideas and twice the price.

 

[odie]

You crack me up Bill!!

Given the available data, I suppose the probability of THIS being the tool that pushes you over the top toward ultimate greatness and woodturning Nirvana is, unfortunately quite low. Since the general form of the tool already likely matches the form of many of the existing tools you already have, I would not place much faith in a "U-gouge catapult" (or even a trebuchet) for your greatness enhancement.

Now if you coupled these U-gouges with a high-tech handle, adding a side-arm anti-torque brace, a shaft that is captured between roller bars, that would use an automatically-replaceable carbide cutter guided by a LASER beam, and a cut-follower that continually ejected chips from hollow forms, then sealed the wood for even slow drying as the chips were created, and destroyed all pith without the need to identify it as a possible weakness, THEN you'd be talkin' about THE TOOL YOU NEED for greatness. I heard that this tool also includes the "Curve-o-matic Vessel Master" curve fairing software (built into the handle) that routinely and constantly evaluates all turned curves for being properly 'faired' right while you are holding the tool against the wood ; as an accessory you can buy the 'Tenon-Master' as part of the same system that cuts perfect tenons matched to your chuck jaws so you don't even have to think about it. And the REAL beauty of this latest and greatest system is that IT ALL FITS IN THE 5-gallon Plastic bucket that sits on the floor of your shop, right next to the lathe, with all of the sharp tool ends pointing up so you can easily see exactly what parts of the woodturning system you need at the time!!! WHAT COULD BE BETTER?

Even though it may cost you a fortune, YOU NEED IT! (...or did you mean that you'll MAKE a fortune?) It's the latest and greatest. The original wisdom of Mr. Don Geiger that "we are only one tool away from greatness" is fulfilled, and the microeconomics of wood tool designers, manufacturers, and users is enhanced.

And about fame - you can get there in many ways, for example by producing fantastic turned objects, inventing a new woodturning method, get noticed at an Instant Gallery, give a great demo, get injured while not using a face shield/PPE, or setting up a multi-million Ponzi scheme. I think you would agree, (with apologies to Albert Einstein), that "all fame is relative".

Rob

I know this is just an oversight on your part, Rob.......but, you forgot the optional remote micro TV camera with night vision, for seeing into the interior of the hollow form.



ooc

 

[Rob Wallace]

I already have one of these cameras!!

I know this is just an oversight on your part, Rob.......but, you forgot the optional remote micro TV camera with night vision, for seeing into the interior of the hollow form.



ooc

Actually Odie, your comment is quite perceptive, accurate, and somewhat prescient.....

.....last week I received a package containing a used 'dental intra-oral camera unit' that I bought on eBay for under $50 including shipping. Keeping up with my experimentation on "Gizmos and Gadgets" of various items being re-purposed for woodturning uses, I bought an older version of a "dentist tool" that produces a video signal from a micro-camera that is mounted in a narrow handpiece which also has a built-in fiber-optic light source. So, in actuality, your statement of a "remote micro TV camera with night vision" is precisely what I recently purchased for the exact purpose of seeing inside of closed hollow vessels!! Thus, I am already "on" that aspect of re-purposed viewing equipment, all kidding aside.

Initial trials of seeing the interior of roughed-out hollow forms of various shapes indicates that the camera will work OK to show the quality of internal surfaces, wood defects, cracks, and precisely where ridges or grooves are located. Having the fiber-optic light source available as part of this unit also enables wall thickness checks in light colored woods (if the wall is thin enough), although I've already had a separate fiber-optic light source for this purpose for several years. The micro-camera's viewing axis is positioned at 90 degrees to the axis of the hand piece, making viewing of the inner walls and under the vessel's shoulder possible when compared to other kinds of mini-cameras such as "bore scopes" whose cameras are in line with the probe axis. The only major limitation with this camera unit is that the depth of focus is rather shallow, and you have to be fairly close to the wall to see the surface clearly (this makes sense because most human mouths are not as big as the hollow forms I am turning!). I don't think I will be able to capture video of actual live turning going on inside the vessel (...which would be excellent!) due to the size of the handpiece and the need to have the camera in the vessel opening with the boring bar at the same time. Perhaps another micro-camera might be able to do this, but I'd need a different unit to try to see real-time inside turning video - perhaps for a future project?

I think this new toy will let me see where more work is needed on the inside of the vessel by direct observation, rather than feeling-around for it with fingers or tips of tools and guessing what work is needed next. That's the main reason why I got the camera system - and that it was fairly inexpensive (along with the fact that I have several unused video monitors sitting around my ham radio station).

Tinkering my way through "Woodturning Gizmos" since 1992....

Rob

 

[odie]

Actually Odie, your comment is quite perceptive, accurate, and somewhat prescient.....

.....last week I received a package containing a used 'dental intra-oral camera unit' that I bought on eBay for under $50 including shipping. Keeping up with my experimentation on "Gizmos and Gadgets" of various items being re-purposed for woodturning uses, I bought an older version of a "dentist tool" that produces a video signal from a micro-camera that is mounted in a narrow handpiece which also has a built-in fiber-optic light source. So, in actuality, your statement of a "remote micro TV camera with night vision" is precisely what I recently purchased for the exact purpose of seeing inside of closed hollow vessels!! Thus, I am already "on" that aspect of re-purposed viewing equipment, all kidding aside.

Initial trials of seeing the interior of roughed-out hollow forms of various shapes indicates that the camera will work OK to show the quality of internal surfaces, wood defects, cracks, and precisely where ridges or grooves are located. Having the fiber-optic light source available as part of this unit also enables wall thickness checks in light colored woods (if the wall is thin enough), although I've already had a separate fiber-optic light source for this purpose for several years. The micro-camera's viewing axis is positioned at 90 degrees to the axis of the hand piece, making viewing of the inner walls and under the vessel's shoulder possible when compared to other kinds of mini-cameras such as "bore scopes" whose cameras are in line with the probe axis. The only major limitation with this camera unit is that the depth of focus is rather shallow, and you have to be fairly close to the wall to see the surface clearly (this makes sense because most human mouths are not as big as the hollow forms I am turning!). I don't think I will be able to capture video of actual live turning going on inside the vessel (...which would be excellent!) due to the size of the handpiece and the need to have the camera in the vessel opening with the boring bar at the same time. Perhaps another micro-camera might be able to do this, but I'd need a different unit to try to see real-time inside turning video - perhaps for a future project?

I think this new toy will let me see where more work is needed on the inside of the vessel by direct observation, rather than feeling-around for it with fingers or tips of tools and guessing what work is needed next. That's the main reason why I got the camera system - and that it was fairly inexpensive (along with the fact that I have several unused video monitors sitting around my ham radio station).

Tinkering my way through "Woodturning Gizmos" since 1992....

Rob

Well, I'll be......to think I was only kidding around! It sounds like you have some pioneering spirit, Rob!

Maybe I need to get a crystal ball, a tent, a funny looking hat.......and, set up shop in the park......or, something! Heh,heh,heh.....

Good luck with your gizmo experiments.

ooc

 

[MichaelMouse]

To reiterate, and as your video shows, a roughing gouge is a terribly inefficient tool for roughing cross grain bowl blanks.

Incredibly wrong. Been many places and seen many turners, and with the exception of the wet wood scraper types, I move more wood per minute. I remove nearly a 1/4" depth with a pass producing 3/4 wide shavings.

These are dry, so I'm not being so aggressive. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/ShavingWide.jpg Nonetheless, if you look at the shear face of the shaving in the lower right, you'll see that nearly 1/8" of wood was being removed when these shavings were made. The shavings average >3/8 wide, which as mentioned below, leaves a splendid surface behind. You can see the feathered edge on the shaving made where the trailing edge exits the wood. That tells you that there is none of the dreaded tear-out that others complain of. Not enough upward pressure on the fiber to pull it out.

Once again, dry wood, in this case yellow birch, showing how much wood is being removed per pass. Look at the shear faces, then the tapers. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/5-Cut-Shapes.jpg Both inside and outside. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/7-Surface-In.jpg inside.

For all you bowl gouge pullers who stand in harm and shavings way, consider how nice it would be to swing and push the tool and remove whatever amount you felt would get the outside round without having to sharpen, because you have an inch and a half of edge to work with. Inside, imagine how easy it would be to get that shear/skew slicing cut you strive for with your gouge's wing, if there were no rest/banjo/ways to interfere with the handle. Because the wood sees these two edges this way. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Gouge-Curves.jpg

Oh, before I forget, a cross grain bowl is the same as a cross-grain spindle in the way the tool is presented and the wood is sliced. Think about it.

A tool similar to the one in the original post in use here at around 3:25 ff. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY2OnZmeZOA He uses it because it is so easy to get a smooth surface, though if he tried a broader sweep, I'm betting he'd put that bowl gouge away except for digging wood. The "resolver" could easily be replaced by a broad sweep as well. I do it all the time. I also, if you look at the edges as the wood sees them, don't need to stand a gouge on end to cut with a wing, while placing my body in harm's way.

 

[hockenbery]

Incredibly wrong. Been many places and seen many turners, and with the exception of the wet wood scraper types, I move more wood per minute. I remove nearly a 1/4" depth with a pass producing 3/4 wide shavings.
.

Michael,

Most people using the side ground gouge remove 3/4 to 1/2 inch depth of wood each roughing pass. The true bowl turners like O'neill, Lucas, Mahoney .... Remove an inch of wood.
Most of my students do 1/2 to 3/4 depth of cut on their second bowl.
So with a couple hours of practice they are removing 2 to 3 times the amount of wood.

They use the roughing cut which is a none bevel riding cut with the nose and lower wing. To rough shape the curve
Then switch to bevel riding cuts for final shape and smooth surface. Depth of cut 1/4", 1/8", 1/16, 1/32".......

You haven't actually seen any good bowl Turners.

Al

 

[Dale Miner]

Mr. Mouse,

We are talking about roughing a bowl, remember. This is not a dicussion about finish cuts, please stay on subject.

Your video and your comments confirm the "ineffecient" for roughing purposes. Your 1/8" depth of cut looks to be a bit less than that, and the shaving at your 3/8" actually looks to a bit wider, using your 1/8"- and your 3/8"+, you prove the inefficiency of the roughing gouge for roughing a cross grain bowl. You have 3/8"+ of edge in the wood, and are only removing 1/8"- of wood. Your process requires enough force to cut with 3/8"+ of edge to remove that 1/8"- of wood. With a 1/2" or 5/8" bowl gouge, using a push cut with the handle horizontal and the flute rolled over to about 45 degrees, that 3/8"+ of edge in play would remove nearly 3/8" of wood. For the the same amout of cutting force, three times as much wood could be removed. Your process by your own comments is very much less efficient than a bowl gouge for the same process.

You identify the wood as birch, not oak, hickory, osage, white elm, or hard maple. Birch is much easier to cut than the ones I've mentioned. In fact, in most of your videos it appears that you are turing a fairly easy to machine wood. And as we all know, the easier the wood is to machine, the easier it is to get away with using a tool not ideally suited for the process.

Now, you haven't shown taking a bandsawn or chainsawn blank from a pith towards rim half log and knocking the corners off with a roughing gouge. I can't recall any of your videos that you have linked that show you doing that. A heavy interrupted cut across the end grain of the blank is the most catch prone part of the roughing process. Cutting with the wing as in your video with a heavy interupted cut invites a rolling of the gouge that rolls the wing into the blank resulting in a huge catch. Perhaps you can and have a video doing that, but I can't recall it, and hopefully you won't post a link to one because it is a very accident prone use of a roughing gouge.

Also, the shape of this and most of your bowls is one of the easier shapes to turn. Fairly shallow and wide. The progress of your cut across the end grain is in an angular path. If the bowl was a typical salad bowl shape where the end grain is being cut almost perpindicular near the rim, the cutting force would be much higher than cutting it at an angle as you are in your video. You also don't show how you cut the center and foot of the bowl with tailstock support. Most people opt for the safety of tailstock support whenever possible, and use a pull cut for working that area with tailstock support. A pull cut with a roughing gouge is something I have not tried and can't see any way that it can be done safely. I definately don't see anyway to do it with tailstock support for the tennon and foot. A fingernail bowl gouge works perfect for this area.

Mr. Mouse, George Tokarev, or Hombre nom de jour, I recall a time before you were banned from Sawmill Creek. I was starting out turning and would see the videos you posted links to. Not knowing enough, I would try some of your methods and would have terrible catches. Luckily, no permanent injury or serious loss of blood resulted. Luckily.

I think the only bit of info that helped me was your description of 'poke and roll', but I don't recall a video of it.

As others have said, I have no problems with you using whatever tool you wish for whatever cut you wish. I do think that insisting that a roughing gouge for bowls is a better choice than a bowl gouge is wrong, is irresponsible, and could result in someone becoming injured.

A note to begining turners that are looking at boards for a handle on how to turn and pick up techniques:

The fact that someone can perform a cut, and video it and place it on the internet does not neccessarily mean that it is safe or correct. There are countless Youtubes and other videos on the net of people doing something that is unsafe and are getting away with it. If you see a video on the net that you are not certain about, post a link to it on this or other turning bulletin boards and get opinions from names that you recognize and respect. Be catious of advice given by people under an alias. The best learning comes from hands on with an experienced trusted turner. Join a turning club.

Also, use Bowl Gouges on bowls.

 

[Shawn Pachlhofer]

Mr. Mouse,

We are talking about roughing a bowl, remember. This is not a dicussion about finish cuts, please stay on subject.

Your video and your comments confirm the "ineffecient" for roughing purposes. Your 1/8" depth of cut looks to be a bit less than that, and the shaving at your 3/8" actually looks to a bit wider, using your 1/8"- and your 3/8"+, you prove the inefficiency of the roughing gouge for roughing a cross grain bowl. You have 3/8"+ of edge in the wood, and are only removing 1/8"- of wood. Your process requires enough force to cut with 3/8"+ of edge to remove that 1/8"- of wood. With a 1/2" or 5/8" bowl gouge, using a push cut with the handle horizontal and the flute rolled over to about 45 degrees, that 3/8"+ of edge in play would remove nearly 3/8" of wood. For the the same amout of cutting force, three times as much wood could be removed. Your process by your own comments is very much less efficient than a bowl gouge for the same process.

You identify the wood as birch, not oak, hickory, osage, white elm, or hard maple. Birch is much easier to cut than the ones I've mentioned. In fact, in most of your videos it appears that you are turing a fairly easy to machine wood. And as we all know, the easier the wood is to machine, the easier it is to get away with using a tool not ideally suited for the process.

Now, you haven't shown taking a bandsawn or chainsawn blank from a pith towards rim half log and knocking the corners off with a roughing gouge. I can't recall any of your videos that you have linked that show you doing that. A heavy interrupted cut across the end grain of the blank is the most catch prone part of the roughing process. Cutting with the wing as in your video with a heavy interupted cut invites a rolling of the gouge that rolls the wing into the blank resulting in a huge catch. Perhaps you can and have a video doing that, but I can't recall it, and hopefully you won't post a link to one because it is a very accident prone use of a roughing gouge.

Also, the shape of this and most of your bowls is one of the easier shapes to turn. Fairly shallow and wide. The progress of your cut across the end grain is in an angular path. If the bowl was a typical salad bowl shape where the end grain is being cut almost perpindicular near the rim, the cutting force would be much higher than cutting it at an angle as you are in your video. You also don't show how you cut the center and foot of the bowl with tailstock support. Most people opt for the safety of tailstock support whenever possible, and use a pull cut for working that area with tailstock support. A pull cut with a roughing gouge is something I have not tried and can't see any way that it can be done safely. I definately don't see anyway to do it with tailstock support for the tennon and foot. A fingernail bowl gouge works perfect for this area.

Mr. Mouse, George Tokarev, or Hombre nom de jour, I recall a time before you were banned from Sawmill Creek. I was starting out turning and would see the videos you posted links to. Not knowing enough, I would try some of your methods and would have terrible catches. Luckily, no permanent injury or serious loss of blood resulted. Luckily.

I think the only bit of info that helped me was your description of 'poke and roll', but I don't recall a video of it.

As others have said, I have no problems with you using whatever tool you wish for whatever cut you wish. I do think that insisting that a roughing gouge for bowls is a better choice than a bowl gouge is wrong, is irresponsible, and could result in someone becoming injured.

A note to begining turners that are looking at boards for a handle on how to turn and pick up techniques:

The fact that someone can perform a cut, and video it and place it on the internet does not neccessarily mean that it is safe or correct. There are countless Youtubes and other videos on the net of people doing something that is unsafe and are getting away with it. If you see a video on the net that you are not certain about, post a link to it on this or other turning bulletin boards and get opinions from names that you recognize and respect. Be catious of advice given by people under an alias. The best learning comes from hands on with an experienced trusted turner. Join a turning club.

Also, use Bowl Gouges on bowls.

Maybe Mr. Mouse doesn't have a video - but this guy does:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOhHeyoZLaY

whenever someone asks me why you don't use s SRG on a bowl - I point them to that video.

 

[Ian Robertson]

Maybe Mr. Mouse doesn't have a video - but this guy does:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOhHeyoZLaY

whenever someone asks me why you don't use s SRG on a bowl - I point them to that video.

That guy is me.

It still astounds me with some of the replies I get.

 

[Gretch Flo]

congrats, Ian

That guy is me.

It still astounds me with some of the replies I get.

Great job Ian. All in the name of teaching!!!! Reminds me of a historical fiction ( I read it 50 years ago so forgive me if the details are wrong) (heard it really wasn;t true ) where Emil Semmilweis-obstetrician? in the 1800"s had a theory that germs were passed if you didn't wash your hands. Women hated being placed in a hospital during childbearing as they would contact puerperal fever and could and often died. The practice was for a physician and a cadre of "residents" to go from one woman to another and examine them during the labor-they would just wipe their hands on their smocks. Emil knew this was wrong and insisted on washing his hands with ? soap? He was a heretic. So to prove his point, he pricked his finger and put material from an infected woman on it and died of puerperal fever. Glad you didn't die, Emil/aka Ian. Gretch

 

[odie]

That guy is me.

It still astounds me with some of the replies I get.

Thanks for taking the time to make that video, Ian.....:cool2:

Your great job of explaining the danger involved was enlightening.

ooc

 

[robo hippy]

Ian/Robbo's catch happened for a couple of reasons. One, he was extended out pretty far over the tool rest. Two, he had the gouge cutting square into the wood and into the wood rotation. Three, he lowered the tool, which caused the bevel to come off the wood, which instantly turned the cut from a bevel rubbing cut into a scraping cut. This scraping cut was pointing up into the rotation of the wood, rather than down which is how you are supposed to use a scraper. This resulted in a pretty big catch. If you used a bowl gouge in the same manor, you would get the same results. Now, if you roll the gouge over on its side, and have the handle at a 45 degree angle, it will cut nice and clean, and be safe. As near as I can tell, MM is the only one that turns bowls and uses the spindle roughing/continental/broad sweep gouge the way he shows. He does not rub the bevel. I have tried it, and while it does work, the standard bevel cut works far better, and is easier to control.

Here is my version on how a SRG can be used on a bowl. Yes, I can use it, but no I don't. There are other tools that work better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwlAb2BWHw8

As a side note, Ian just put up some clips on chuck maintenance that every one should watch, and he has a series of excellent video clips on basic safety, especially good for beginners, part of which talks about what wood is safe to turn.

On my bucket list, go to Australia and have a day with Robbo. Good man and turner.

robo hippy

 

[hockenbery]

Reed, Dale, Gretch, Ian, Odie, Shawn, , Michael,

The advice "don't use a spindle Roughing gouge on face grain bowls" is about safety and not about whether it can be done by skilled turners.

It is our responsibility to direct novice turners toward tools they use safely and effectively.
All but one of us seems to understand this.

It is my perception that any of us could turn a bowl with a sharpened spoon, most of us also realize that using a spoon is not safe for the novice and it is not the best tool for bowls.

I think Dale made an excellent point with:
[use] " whatever tool you wish for whatever cut you wish. I do think that insisting that a roughing gouge for bowls is a better choice than a bowl gouge is wrong, is irresponsible, and could result in someone becoming injured."

Lots of folks don't use bowl gouges. But the highly successful bowl turners do. There are some production turners that rely on 1/4" scrapers for fairly big bowls.
Obviously not everyone can or wants to learn to use a bowl gouge.
Keep in mind a big part of our forum audience are novice turners like we were years ago.
We need to make recommendations that are safe and effective.

Using bowl gouges for bowls is both safe and effective.
Using a spindle roughing gouge can lead to more severe catches than bowl gouges, the gouges themselves usually have weak tang in the handle that breaks or bends, and the tool is inefficient for roughing a bowl. Properly used a spoon, roughing gouge, and bowl gouge will not give a catch. Improperly used they can all produce catches.
Generally the bowl gouge catch will be less dangerous and less damaging to the bowl.

Al

 

[David Wilkins]

Rtfm

For the original post, Henry Taylor are OK. Reasonable steel, they tend to be short. I have tried the u flute gouges and I prefer parabolic or some people call them v shaped flutes. I do own some u shaped flutes too.

On to the sideshow. Mr mouse gets a good debate out of this every year or so and it is fun to watch. First off, it is our responsibility to read manuals, get training, and understand how this wood turning thing works. If we don't we only have ourselves to blame for failure. Can you use a srg on a bowl, sure you can there is an edge there. You can use an Axe too, understand the relationship between the steel edge, grain and rotation and the rest is cake. Not one poster here put up a warning about the misuse of the tools they suggested. I scrape the outside of bowls with no tool rest, but the danger there is perhaps more apparent. Challenging who can take a bigger shaving than the other is a base argument not relevant to the quality of the work or versatility of the tool. Woodturning and this forum for that matter is about the relationship between the edge and the wood and the final work not retraining for Michael.