Upgrading dust collection; could use some help

Discussion in 'Woodturning Health & Safety' started by Mark Hepburn, Dec 31, 2015.

  1. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    It is probably time for some one to do another comprehensive book and video about dust collectors. Mark, for your size of shop, if you get one of the 'good' systems, which to means Oneida, and probably Clear View (which wasn't around when I set up my DC), a 2 hp unit should work fine. I have a 24 by 36 shop, and Oneida (they will design the duct work for your shop as will Clear view) told me that 2 hp would be sufficient, but 3 hp would be better if I planned on running 2 machines at once. Having the proper diameter duct work relative to your dust collector is huge in getting good air flow. Going with bigger diameter ducts works some times, and some times not. Running too big or too little can make a huge difference when compared to 'just right'. Along with this is the pressure that is generated when the system is running. There are many ways to 'measure' and 'advertising' is not always totally accurate, so with the 'cheaper' brands, they may not come up to par with the other other systems. Best bets: get a 2 stage system so anything that goes into the hoses (bowls, spheres, rags, shavings, the shop cat) goes into the cyclone before it goes through the impeller blades. Huge savings in time saved from cleaning the blades, and in repairs from things hitting the blades. Use the pleated paper filters, and some now go down to less than 1 micron. One paper cartridge can give 2 to 3 times the surface area that 1 cloth bag does, and most of the paper filters are finer than the cloth ones. You can vent straight outside if you want. First time the wind is blowing towards a neighbor's house, there might be problems, unless they are far away. It is also a down side unless you live in a very temperate climate and can turn in short sleeves and shorts all year long. You can put the DC on a pad outside, and make a lean to for it or an enclosed shed that would classify as 'temporary' to the building inspectors.

    robo hippy
     
  2. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

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    Sorry to hear that you may have to quit turning. I have thought about building one also but I keep finding that I do things that take away from my turning time, which is what I really want to do.

    No neighbors at all. I've lived here since 1991 and most people don't even realize that there's a house back where I am. I'm going to exhaust and stick a vent somewhere on the opposite end of the shop for makeup air.
     
  3. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

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    Bill, thanks for the link. Adding it to my shopping list.

    I'm going to do the 6" duct. I read on Bill Pentz' site that you really need 1000 cfm on the vertical runs to pull the fines and exhaust. I do want a 5 hp motor just because it will have a long service life. I only run one machine at a time. I'm dead set on auto blast gates, which means that's basically my entire year's toy budget but I think it's a good way to prioritize (the whole D.C. upgrade, I mean). The only thing I'm going to sort of cheap out on are the strap hangers. 6 bucks and up, are you kidding me? I'll get some strapping at Lowe's in a roll and make my own.
     
  4. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

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    Hey Robo;

    I think I'll give the ClearVue people a call. I'm leaning in that direction because of the footprint. It'll be a two stage so as to pull the chunks out before the impeller and the rest will vent outside. I'm 200 yards from anyone on any side of the house. The shop is a converted porch that I closed in and there's a patio roof extension that provides water protection but I don't think I'd want to put the unit out there. The ClearVue would fit in a corner, I could frame it in and knock down some of the noise. Since it's inside, and essentially non-structural, no inspections or permits. Plus down here things are a bit more casual anyway :)

    I'm using all kinds of >1 micron filters and have a pleated filter on my current D.C. and just spent the past two days sweeping up tons of dust. Thus, my decision to send it to the atmosphere, far far away from my shop :)

    I realize that 2 hp may be enough, but since they all turn at the same speed, I don't mind going heavy on the motor for longevity and reliability. But your point is well-taken, and I'll ask ClearVue and possibly Oneida about sizing. And ducting design. I assume they need some scale drawings with reasonably accurate equipment placement?

    Which made me realize that I left my jointer and planer out of my shop drawing. Of course, they're on dollies and I use them outside for now but it'd be nice to be able to just grab a spare port and stay indoors.
     
  5. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

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    Olaf, I have that same thought regarding air flow based on reading Bill Pentz's site. Which I'm still reading :)

    I'd actually like to keep it inside of 8' if I can. I have a bit of extra overhead but only a little so that would be good. The ClearVue looks as though all I have to do is put a shorter collector bin at the bottom and I'm good to go.

    you for sure have more heating concerns than we do down here! Spent Christmas in a T-shirt and shorts. Hated it. I lived in Wisconsin and Ohio and miss the winters to tell the truth. I love Toronto, but haven't been there in quite a while. I was in Nova Scotia for a class in November and hoping for some cold weather. Got in the 40's but not much cooler. C'est la vie.
     
  6. Paul M. Kaplowitz

    Paul M. Kaplowitz

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    Onieda

    Mark, Instead of all the jury rigs and messing around, do yourself a favor and call Onieda Air. Robo and I have been around the block for many years and have a good idea what works. I have a 5 hp cyclone system that works great. Incidently, I don't care what system you use, if you are not wearing a dust mask of somekind, you will still be breathing in a bunch of sawdust. No system gets it all. I have worn an Airmate 3 for 20 years. Paul Kaplowitz
     
  7. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

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    Hi Paul.

    I agree. My father died of lung cancer, and I smoked for 20 years (and quit 27 years ago). So my past lung abuse is always at the back of my mind. Sweeping out a 20 gallon bin of dust over the past week was a real wake up call.

    What I have had for years is basically a bunch of ad hoc, jury rigged stuff and I just yanked it out of the shop. I do have a Trend Airshield that I use. I plan on calling both Oneida and ClearVue on Monday.

    Meanwhile I have a huge fan (4' diameter) that I stuck in the door of the shop and I'm just going to let it run like crazy all the time until I upgrade. This week or next I expect to be back in business. Thanks!
     
  8. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I absolutely agree!
     
  9. Raul McCai

    Raul McCai

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    What's the advantage over a gate that you slide open when you approach the work station or as the need arises?
     
  10. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

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    My memory. :D
     
  11. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

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    You know I just had a thought . If you exhaust outdoors there is less resistance because of taking the filter out of the equation and therefore 1.5 hp should work just fine. To try this out just disconnect the pipe going to the filter and try it , you should see a significant rise in suction.
     
  12. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    When you remove the filter and the resistance decreases the amount of air being moved by the motor increases. The volume of air being moved in a given period of time is what determines the amount of work that the motor is doing. In other words, it takes more power to move more air.
     
  13. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

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    Gerald, I struck a compromise with my dearly beloved. I can put the dust collector outside (and I will enclose it), but she insists that I use the filter so there's not a bunch of discharge visible in the yard and such. Ergo, a filtered system but outside and therefore I can't benefit from my existing machine (which is rated at 750+ CFM but the ratings are suspect).

    I'm therefore going with an Oneida V-series, most likely a 3.5 HP unit, rated at about 1450 CFM (2200 + "free fan"). My max run is going to be 22' on one side with the lathes at the end of that and nothing else. Branching off of that to the other side of the shop will be the rest of the connections and a blast gate will control that branch.

    I considered the Penn State for the footprint and after reading a LOT, came away with the belief that they're a bit like Grizzly - you may get a great machine or you may have some issues. I've been very pleased overall with my Grizzly tools (T/S, band saw, jointer, shaper) but the D.C. has been a letdown for me so I'm going with a machine that is generally very highly regarded (still wish I could get the Felder but $$$$).
     
  14. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Your wife is a very wise person. Even though you said that you don't have any close neighbors, there is a very close neighbor whose home adjoins your shop. I know that many woodturners say that they vent their DC outside without a filter, but when you do that, your DC has to draw an equal amount of replacement air from somewhere ... that "somewhere" being the great outdoors that you've just polluted with billowing clouds of fine dust. Unless your location always has a wind blowing from the same direction that enables you to put the exhaust downwind, you may wind up drawing in dusty replacement air that you've just exhausted. Being somewhat familiar with Gulf coast weather, I know that much of the time there is no breeze whatsoever and if you create a cloud of dust around your shop, that is the "fresh" air that will be coming into the shop.
     
  15. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

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    Bill, you are right indeed. She is a very wise person and generally sees the "big picture" where I may get lost in the weeds of details. In truth, I didn't consider that we are our own neighbors. :D
     
  16. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

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    Pulled the trigger

    Thanks to everyone for your advice. Lots of very good help and I really appreciate it.

    So, I just ordered the 3 HP V-series from Oneida. 1,349 CFM at 2.3" SP with filter attached and fan under load. That's twice the rated CFM of my Grizzly and I suspect that it was a generous rating. Oneida's going to do the duct design free with the purchase and so that's next up.

    I asked about the return air and their rep said that I could actually put the HEPA filter in the shop and let the DC exhaust into the shop. My reply was, well, you're pretty confident in the filtering capability of our system and Chris said, "absolutely".

    However, he also agreed that an alternate makeup air vent elsewhere in the shop was fine if I didn't care about conditioned space, and so that's the way I'm going. So the entire system will be outside. The V-series isn't really rated for outdoors unless it's enclosed, but they say that a simple exterior grade plywood housing is just fine.

    He also told me that the Super Dust Gorilla is rated for outdoors but that none of the filters are, and so it doesn't make sense to pay a premium for the unit (and double the shipping), so the V-series made the most sense.

    I've decided that, although there's no danger in using the PVC, I'd rather have a turnkey system so to speak, and after I submit my shop drawing to scale, they'll return a design with bill of materials and I'm good to go.

    Still plan on going with those blast gates but, Raul, I found the Long Ranger switching system may be a better option as you suggest. It'll cost about $200 compared with $1300 if I go with the auto gates. I'm thinking that it's an upgrade for down the road maybe, since that's an awful lot of money. In fact, I had wanted to get a Powermatic drill press to replace my aging Ridgid floor unit and that costs about what the blast gates do.

    So there's my tool budget for a long while, and if you see me posting things for sale you know why - subsidizing my DC. But I think that it's definitely money well spent.

    Thanks again to everyone for your thoughts!

    Mark
     
  17. Larry Morgan

    Larry Morgan

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    If your planning on direct venting to the exterior outdoors, you need to take into consideration a few items.
    - Any air your exhaust out of your shop will be replaced with air coming inside your shop from the outside.
    - Therefore consider where is the nearest openings to your home or shop in relationship to your dust collector exhaust. You do not want to suck contaminated air back into your home or shop that you just exhausted.
    - How much additional money will it cost you to operate your system? Heating, Cooling and De-humidification of the replacement outside air to your shop.
    - If your home is too tight and your system is too large, you may have difficulty opening doors that swing out from your shop area to the outside as negative suction pressure will become a factor to consider.

    I will add more as I think over this topic a bit.
     
  18. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

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    Hi Larry. I'm going to put the DC outside in an enclosure but have a return air so it doesn't pull from the house. I did purchase the Oneida with the HEPA filter but it won't be returning to the shop. I'm going to pull from the other end of the shop about 22 feet away and around a corner.

    I'm in South Louisiana where we're currently suffering through a 52 degree winter day :) Because the shop is a converted porch and therefore a part of the house, there are two doors, both of which I will be upgrading the seals on this weekend. However, just a tad of negative pressure is A-OK with me, as it will keep dust out of the house.

    I spend about 6 hours a week in the shop now but hope to spend more. So doubling that will mean that I have increased demand on the house's HVAC service for about 7% of the time in any given month (about 720 hours/month into the 48 per month of shop use). If my cooling cost doubles - and I don't think it will - during those times, then I'm looking at about a 7% increase in the A/C portion of my energy bill. The house is all-electric and cooling days far outnumber heating days down here. And actually, in this shop, I work with the door open about half the year or more, since I like the cold (such as it is here).

    Dehumidification is a subject that, frankly I hadn't considered. There may be some benefit to putting this in the shop, if only to help slow some components from rusting over time.
    I'd for sure like to hear your thoughts so fire away!

    Mark
     
  19. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

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    Hey again Dean. I'm going with the metal ducting after all. Oneida is suggesting 7" with this system and reducing to 6" at the drops (then to 4" hose if I must for the machines' dust ports).

    I really wanted to upgrade my DC so didn't try what you suggested. However, I did "verify" that the Grizzly DC CFM was based on free fan speeds and not with filter attached, so the usable CFM was quite a bit less. More important to me is that the Oneida that I ordered generates 1422 CFM with filter and so it's a huge increase. I'm going to see if I can sell the Grizzly locally on Craigslist, with all the hose, PVC, and fittings. Hopefully someone will want it.
     
  20. Larry Morgan

    Larry Morgan

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    Mark:

    I am a registered Professional Mechanical Engineer that specializes in HVAC, Air Flow, Fluid Dynamics and Thermodynamics. I have several questions before I can provide a reasonable answer to your electrical bill increase.

    1. Is your current AC system for the house also supplying air to your shop?
    2. Does any air from your shop return to the AC system in question #1 above?

    If so, then the following will apply: I can assure you that your electrical bill will increase more than 7%. One needs to consider that a normal AC system will take room air at approx. 75 degrees and cool it to 55 degrees (total temperature change of 20 degrees) thus lowering your Relative Humidity (RH) to approx. 50-55%. Any outside air (assume 90 Degrees) will need to be lowered to 55 degrees (total temperature change of 35 degrees) to obtain your desired RH. To determine a correct estimate of electrical bill increase would require a mass flow calculation that requires CFM of DC and home AC unit as well as time intervals.

    If you have a complete separate AC system for your shop this all changes but will still have a similar impact.

    My DC system recirculates in the house. My DC is separate from the work room located in a large mechanical room just on the other side of the shop wall. I have a small encloser around the DC with fiberglass insulation in the joist spaces above the top of the wall. I also have a series of 2" Pleated HEPA filters in a bank on the walls of the surround. Make sure to caulk and seal all cracks and other openings. The more square inches of filter space means that you will have a lower velocity across the filters thus trapping more dust particles. Now, believe it or not, the dirtier the filter, the more efficient it becomes. But you also increase a static pressure.

    This may be more than you want to know.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2016

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