What other turners aren't telling you, and how that relates to "innovative spirit"!

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by odie, Jan 11, 2014.

  1. charlie knighton

    charlie knighton

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    you definitely have courage Bill, good luck in the future, you might want to find a parallel existance
     
  2. charlie knighton

    charlie knighton

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    Tom and Mark.......i sometime go to rotations i have no interest in just to get a different view ...... i may use it in the future or may never use it, but its a resource that i will have that i didn't....unless the statin buries it

    i almost consider regional and national symposium as "sporting events....ie duke vs nc, daytona 500 race, the final four......they are great, as long as you can get in the bathroom
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2014
  3. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Hey Bill!!

    psssssssst
     
  4. KellyDunn

    KellyDunn

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    Mark, I guess I caved cause its my most popular class. I always do two rotations on translucent work. Part of the class is the process. So many hundreds of folks over the years walked away thinking they got it. Well they almost got it.
    And its very true I rarely get a thanks. And I do take the time to walk folks through the process. But its now out there for any to try. I do get a bit miffed when I see a project done exactly from my instructions and they play like its all theirs.
    But I am a curious full time turner. So I try new things.
    And not having any secrets means I dont have to remember which tight turning bud I shared the process with. I think two. But now I dont worry about it. But I have to move on and keep experimenting for my sanity.
    Hans Weisflog does not teach at least one of his items. I happen to really like the item and tried once but failed. A former student of his did teach it once. I was there and cant find my frickin notes. But I had a guest who told me how. He is a tight bud of Hans. He did not show me how. But next time I try it I think it will be more of a success. But it wont be a Hans. I dont have the patience or anal math skills to do the perfection of one of his pieces.
     
  5. Betty Scarpino

    Betty Scarpino

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    As long as we agree it's evolved not deteriorated .... sure! :D
     
  6. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Funny you bring up Hans. A friend managed to do a "circle grill" piece using 6 grills rather than Han's 5. He had the piece in the IG and it was chosen for the critique. He had brought the piece, very proud that he had been able to master the technical requirements, but in no way representing that he had done something original. They absolutely trashed him in the critique as a plagiarizer. Truly a shame.

    I understand that you chose to reveal your process, and understand too, that you may feel relieved at not having to carry the secret around anymore. I would think it could get to be a burden with people constantly asking you about it and you trying to politely decline.
     
  7. Mark Wollschlager

    Mark Wollschlager

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    I think the bigger deal with the Hans-like piece was that he had it for sale.
    Selling knock off's of signature work at the symposium...not a good idea.
    It was a Very Well made piece, he should be proud of it, but NFS.
     
  8. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    I remember a conversation with David E. on the topic of craft shows with him saying he quit selling stuff that way when the other turners started copying his shapes.
     
  9. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    It was just a question. :eek:

    Actually, I am wondering if men may have more of a problem keeping a secret based on some recent news stories.
     
  10. odie

    odie

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    Ed......great post! Your entire post has elements that struck me as particularly relevant to the discussion, but I'd like to zero in on this portion in bold above.......

    My comment to this is that even if a turner has some great contribution to the mechanics of turning, and disclosed his findings......there will always be a segment of the audience that won't accept what is given without further consideration, other than strictly at the theoretical level. This reflects your assertion in your final statement rather distinctly.......;)

    .....It also brings to mind the old saying......"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink!" Ahhhhhh, yep! ;)

    What a terrific thread.......if I do say so myself!!!!! I'm really enjoying all the great and insightful comments here......and thanks to all who have contributed, thus far........:D

    ooc
     
  11. Owen Lowe

    Owen Lowe

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    If he won’t tell you, well then, you’ve got your answer. ;)
     
  12. Betty Scarpino

    Betty Scarpino

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    Owen, I asked Sam last night. The conversation was interesting and quite revealing. But he asked me not to pass along his research findings, so I'm going to keep his answer a secret. :p


    Betty Scarpino, Editor, American Woodturner
     
  13. Edward Weber

    Edward Weber

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    Thanks Odie,

    Even if I teach you everything I know, you won't know everything I know.
     
  14. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    I didn't remember Duane having a real price on his piece, but the trashing was not necessary.

    And, not to take anything away from Mr. Weissflog, but circular interference and moire patterns have been done as art for 45 years or more. Hans didn't invent the concept, but his applying it to bowl forms was certainly a significant technical achievement, and his craftsmanship is, of course, impeccable.

    PS: Let's not forget that there are many people who will view a particular piece as both innovation and as a technical challenge in either process or materials (or both). As has been stated here, when we display our work, like it or not, we invite others to try the same thing. Every major "movement" or "style" in the history of Art has started with one innovator who inspired others to follow and spawned imitators who were more or less successful in their efforts. Whether we openly share the how-to or present the result and withhold the method, there will be others, intrigued by the "how'd-he-do-that" question, who will take up the implied challenge. Every artist who comes up with a new or "secret" process risks having her ego deflated when someone else figures out how to do it or even takes it to a higher level. That's part of the risk in showing others what we do. This does not, however, excuse the counterfeiter and rip-off artists.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  15. bowlman

    bowlman

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    what other turners aren't telling you and how that related to "innovative spirit"!

    I can tell you how I make what I make. I can show you the tools that I use to make what I make. I can show you how to use those tools. What I can't do is give you the hundreds or thousands of hours practicing ... standing at the lathe turning ... making and failing time after time ... trying it this way and then that way ...

    Like Kelly Dunn said, you can teach creativity. But linking creativity/innovation with a mastered skill (muscle memory and fine motor skills) ... that is up to the individual. So, when I teach do I keep some things "secret"? ... Yes! I keep to myself the hours and hours of trying and trying and trying .... and, sometime rtrying and succeeding!

    David Ellsworth and I once had a protracted discussion about teaching and revealing all the "secrets ... simplified it came down to this:

    The "expert" has already put in the time and effort. No matter how much or how little he reveals, he/she will always be further ahead than the student simply because the student has yet to put in the time to make the "secret" his own. And, if the student does happen to put in the time, and combined with the student's own abilites that student surpasses the teacher, then ... well, the teacher has doen a great job ... and most probably the teacher has moved on to new techniques/secrets ...

    BTW the earliest AAW Board members were of one mind when it came to sharing knowledge ... and other craft guilds/associations were simply amazed that we would divulge such hard won knowledge so easily. Perhaps that is why when Albert LeCoff presented a slide show of woodturnings made by AAW members to a German audience of woodturners (all of whom had been trained in the traditional apprentice-journeyman-master tradition) there were many tears in the audience. Albert explained that they were blown away by what a retired ----- (fill in your occupation here) or part time hobbyist could achieve with little or no formal training.
     
  16. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Awwwww, Betty. You can tell us and we promise not to blab ... well maybe just a little bit, but only to those who can keep a secret. :D
     
  17. KellyDunn

    KellyDunn

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    I have done many studies based on other makers works. Not all made it for sale cause my wife hated them. But if they passed her test they were for sale. Could you see the influence or even direct takes? If you knew the persons work then yes. If asked I give kudos to the maker and the influence. I can never do an exact of anyones work cause I am not them. A dust up between Ron Kent and myself in forms being very close we both decided we were copying Bob Stocksdales forms. So I started doing an ogee with a small recurved foot. Now tons of folks do just that. But as teachers or makers who put our work before the public eye your a fool to think no one is going to try and get down exactly what you have put out there. And put it for sale.
    I no longer give David Ellsworth credit for me doing hollow vessels except when asked how I got into it. Then I flat give David the credit he deserves. I probably have sold many hundred to maybe a couple thousand hollow vessels since the mid 80s. They all say Kelly Dunn on the bottom.
    Since I teach what I do I have full expectation that some will make work very close to mine and put it for sale. I have never been confused however when seeing anothers work. As close as they try to get they do stuff I dont. So it stands out to me. May confuse the person not intimate with Kelly Dunns work.
     
  18. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Hey Kelly,

    You speak like the mature artist that you are. Each artist must find their own "voice" in their art, and the result will always be, on some level, as individual as a voice-print. Trying to use someone else's voice is playing the ventriloquist with a puppet. Trouble for ventriloquists, people know there's a dummy involved.

    BTW, was that the same Bob Stocksdale who maintained that the Chinese had been using his shapes . . . for the last couple of thousand years? ;)

    peace
     
  19. KellyDunn

    KellyDunn

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    Mark, Bob sitting at our dining table got that little smile on his face and said, the Chinese have been ripping off my forms for the last five thousand years.
    Yea, that Bob Stocksdale. I did not care for all of his forms but his rice bowl and upswept contemporary forms I still do all the time. Even though I and many others copied him. He gave credit to ancients.
     
  20. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    EXACTLY!! And you give credit to him. Honesty abounds when given the chance.

    [5000 years rather that "a couple"? picky picky :D]
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014

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