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Why do we call them boxes?

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I have always called forms with lids "boxes" because that is what they called them when I joined the local woodturners club 5 years ago. But I was just asked by a non-turner why, (for about the 5th time over the past few years), and was again reminded that the term does not really fit. The dictionary says that boxes are usually a rectangular shape. It seems to me that any of the following are more accurate terms: jar, canister, container. I am curious how the term "box" became standard in wood turning.
 

hockenbery

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Another Interesting question: when does a box become a lidded vessel?

The definition I got below includes cylindrical boxes but implies that they are "special"

box: a container with a flat base and sides, typically square or rectangular and having a lid.
"a cereal box"

Google "oatmeal boxes" and look at the pictures.
 

Bill Boehme

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I looked in the pantry and in addition to the oatmeal box that Al mentioned, I saw several other cylindrical boxes. Also, hat box are round, electrical wiring boxes can be rectangular or round, box of chocolates can be heart shaped, and I've seen multi sided boxes.

When defining what a box can be, we need to think outside of that box.
 
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IThe dictionary says that boxes are usually a rectangular shape.

A word about dictionaries:
We have been lied to from childhood about the dictionary. Well maybe not lied to that would require a specific intent. Maybe misinformed out of the best of intentions would be the better way to say it.
Our teachers even our parents have sent us to the dictionary over and over again, as if the thing was an authoritative source - the final word. Maybe that's because that's what they were taught.

Fact is dictionaries are little more than the best efforts of lexicographers to - - well now this is where it gets hairy; to do what - Exactly. Preserve the language? HA~!!

Many decades ago Lexicographers really took language seriously and they intended to preserve language. So you have the Oxford English Dictionary and the Fowler's Dictionary Now - at least in the United States anyway there is a different motive afoot. They want to keep up with current usage. That means what exactly? It's gotten worse and worse and worse. The people who make the dictionaries are actually tracking recording and memorializing error they are putting their cache behind the deterioration of language. Keeping up with current usage has become some weird effort to get gutter talk jumped up as proper grammar and language.

Example:
More than once I've seen the word DEVOLVE recorded in a modern lexicographer's work as some kind of substitute for Degenerate. Devolve means to transfer power or responsibility for something from one body of civil authority to another. It doesn't mean to de-evolve. But talking heads on TV the news and elsewhere have misused it that way and the lexicographers are close on their heels, not to correct them, but to rubber stamp the error. Makes me crazy~!!!

So if a dictionary tells us that a box is shaped a certain way - well - one can probably chalk that up to the lexicographer's ignorance.
 

Bill Boehme

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We can nit pick details about dictionaries, but the intent is to enable us to understand one another. But, at the same time we can't blame all lack of understanding or failure to communicate on words. Warren G Harding's malapropism "normalcy" a neologism meaning normality has now become an accepted word although I eschew its use. And sometimes out of convenience (or ignorance in some cases) words get adopted to mean something beyond their prior definition.

Boxers box, people in the UK and Canada box on Boxing Day, people who work in cubicles are encouraged to think outside the box, and woodturners make round things with lids and call them boxes.
 

Mark Hepburn

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A word about dictionaries:
We have been lied to from childhood about the dictionary. Well maybe not lied to that would require a specific intent. Maybe misinformed out of the best of intentions would be the better way to say it.
Our teachers even our parents have sent us to the dictionary over and over again, as if the thing was an authoritative source - the final word. Maybe that's because that's what they were taught.

Fact is dictionaries are little more than the best efforts of lexicographers to - - well now this is where it gets hairy; to do what - Exactly. Preserve the language? HA~!!

Many decades ago Lexicographers really took language seriously and they intended to preserve language. So you have the Oxford English Dictionary and the Fowler's Dictionary Now - at least in the United States anyway there is a different motive afoot. They want to keep up with current usage. That means what exactly? It's gotten worse and worse and worse. The people who make the dictionaries are actually tracking recording and memorializing error they are putting their cache behind the deterioration of language. Keeping up with current usage has become some weird effort to get gutter talk jumped up as proper grammar and language.

Example:
More than once I've seen the word DEVOLVE recorded in a modern lexicographer's work as some kind of substitute for Degenerate. Devolve means to transfer power or responsibility for something from one body of civil authority to another. It doesn't mean to de-evolve. But talking heads on TV the news and elsewhere have misused it that way and the lexicographers are close on their heels, not to correct them, but to rubber stamp the error. Makes me crazy~!!!

So if a dictionary tells us that a box is shaped a certain way - well - one can probably chalk that up to the lexicographer's ignorance.

Raul, you are so right. Our language is devolving even as we speak. :D

More examples:

lending has been replaced by loaning

Broadcasters routinely use the word between when they're referring to any number, be it greater than two.

In the latest one that I just love: the reference to the "optics" of something or an action.

But hey, selfie is now a word. Sheesh!
 

Mark Hepburn

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We can nit pick details about dictionaries, but the intent is to enable us to understand one another. But, at the same time we can't blame all lack of understanding or failure to communicate on words. Warren G Harding's malapropism "normalcy" a neologism meaning normality has now become an accepted word although I eschew its use. And sometimes out of convenience (or ignorance in some cases) words get adopted to mean something beyond their prior definition.

Boxers box, people in the UK and Canada box on Boxing Day, people who work in cubicles are encouraged to think outside the box, and woodturners make round things with lids and call them boxes.

Bill, as always you bring a particular perspective that I thoroughly enjoy to a topic.

I say, if you can stick your hand in it - or a couple of fingers at least - it's a box.
 
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Square or rectangular boxes aren’t so old, as planks or sawn boards are only a late development in containers to keep things in, as reeds and grasses or twigs etc. were the material to use, and round or somewhat circular was the norm., though seldom called boxes, when one says "a wooden box", what comes to mind is probably a square or rectangular object, and I would suggest it is so because that is such a prevalent and prevailing shape.

It certainly is not wrong to call a round or oval container a box, like here it is a wooden hat box, what else would you call it :)
large wooden hat box.jpg
 
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Languages are constantly in a mode of change. Each year, Webster's adds new words that pop up. I recall where "stacation" was included in the latest dictionary edition. What is it? When gas was $5 a gallon, people took vacations near home, staying at home while the local trips qualified as a vacation.
Edit: When we think outside of the box, what shape is that particular box? Kind of goes with odie's comment.
 
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Most of the answers so far are along the lines that "calling them boxes is not incorrect" and I agree with that. But I assert that if you asked 10 people on the street to draw a box, at least 9 would draw a rectangle. (Unless you asked a hat maker or an oatmeal factory worker!) Another example, on Google image search, I typed in the word "box" and only 1 out of the first 250 images was a round shape. So at those odds, the first person to make a lidded vessel on the lathe would most likely have chosen a different term, like "canister." So that was my original question, how did we start down this line in the first place? Every turner I have asked has answered along the lines as "I don't know, its always been that way." Perhaps the first turned boxes were made in a different country where word meanings were different. Perhaps as suggested above boxes became predominantly rectangular only in the last 100 years, although this would surprise me. Perhaps "jar" or 'canister' aren't that much better as terms anyway.
 
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I still believe that what we see every day influences what comes to mind, try CONTAINER for instance, and I’m sure lots of people do think about these ship containers, as they are a often seen object, yet how long have these been around, asked the same question 60 years ago and you would not get the same thought/answer IMO.

containers.jpg
 
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Bill Boehme

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Well, what do those ten people know anyway? :D I consulted the supreme authority, Mrs B., and she says that those folks at Google need to learn to think outside of the box because a box can be any shape and a parallelepiped just happens to be one of an unlimited number of possibilities.

Also, from the Online Etymology Dictionary --
Old English
box: "a wooden container" from Latin "buxis". Which may have derived from the Greek word for boxwood.
(probably only because they didn't have cardboard or plastic boxes)​

So, it seems like the name originated from the material and not the shape.
 
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I hate to interject the Brits, they have a Boxer day, which is centuries old, and the reason they call it that is lost to time.....so be it
 

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Another confusing word that woodturners often use, is "chips".......To my way of thinking on this, if you're getting chips, you're doing something wrong. Now.....on the other hand.....if you're getting "shavings", you're doing something right! :)

ko
 

Bill Boehme

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I hate to interject the Brits, they have a Boxer day, which is centuries old, and the reason they call it that is lost to time.....so be it

It's called Boxing Day ... the day after Christmas when things that you got for Christmas are put in boxes ... maybe the reason is for re-gifting the next Christmas. :D It's also a holiday in Canada. I mentioned this back in post #6.

UPDATE: The origin isn't completely lost to time. Here is some information about Boxing Day on Wikipedia that tells what it means and offers some best guesses about its origin which as traditions are concerned isn't terribly long ago.

Another confusing word that woodturners often use, is "chips".......To my way of thinking on this, if you're getting chips, you're doing something wrong. Now.....on the other hand.....if you're getting "shavings", you're doing something right! :)

ko

Even worse is that many turners refer to it as sawdust. Some dry wood won't make shavings regardless of tool sharpness and technique.
 
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Another fly in the ointment here! My wife had a series of round ceramic storage containers with a recessed lid for sugar, tea bags, etc. They are called canisters.
She also has a round antique wooden hat box that belonged to her grandmother. Round? Hot box?
When will it ever end?
 
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Raul, you are so right. Our language is devolving even as we speak. :D

More examples:

lending has been replaced by loaning

Broadcasters routinely use the word between when they're referring to any number, be it greater than two.

In the latest one that I just love: the reference to the "optics" of something or an action.

But hey, selfie is now a word. Sheesh!
My biggest gripe this year is the faddish use of the word "fraught" without saying what something is fraught with! Saying that a situation is fraught doesn't tell me a d@mn thing, grrrrrrr. Sloppy journalism, herd-think.
 

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My biggest gripe this year is the faddish use of the word "fraught" without saying what something is fraught with! Saying that a situation is fraught doesn't tell me a d@mn thing, grrrrrrr. Sloppy journalism, herd-think.

You go, Jamie! Especially that "herd-think". I'm talking to you, Odie my friend. :-D

Our future is fraught with danger of ignorance, incompetence, ineptitude, and other in-words I just can't think of at the moment :eek:
 

Mark Hepburn

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Another confusing word that woodturners often use, is "chips".......To my way of thinking on this, if you're getting chips, you're doing something wrong. Now.....on the other hand.....if you're getting "shavings", you're doing something right! :)

ko

To me, if I'm getting chips, then I expect some breaded cod and malt vinegar. Guess this cajun boy's a Brit at heart.

Sorry, I meant battered. Not breaded. Duh.
 
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Bill Boehme

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My biggest gripe this year is the faddish use of the word "fraught" without saying what something is fraught with! Saying that a situation is fraught doesn't tell me a d@mn thing, grrrrrrr. Sloppy journalism, herd-think.

I hadn't noticed that, but then I don't spend much time watching TV, but when I do, it's usually something on PBS. I don't think that there is much "fraughting" going on there. Any particular network or are they all "fraught"? :D

What irks me and the Mrs is "breaking news". Duh! Does that mean that everything that isn't "breaking" is yesterdays news? What's next? ... Perhaps impending news which will make breaking news so yesterday? :D

(Too bad our local PBS station doesn't carry Tim Yoder.)
 

Mark Hepburn

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I'd say they're pretty much all fraud.

Funny, Siri heard fraught and typed fraud. Perhaps she is smarter than I realized. :D

Yeah my PBS station doesn't carry Tim Yoder either. But I've got a bunch of his reruns I go back and watch on DVR
 

Mark Hepburn

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I know. Everything is iconic and everyone is an icon. It's amazing and awsome!
 

Mark Hepburn

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Well, I don't know if my comments here are a value-add, or if they move the needle for anyone. This really isn't in my wheelhouse but let's keep thinking outside the box and maybe we'll get past the low-hanging fruit and deep dive, be innovative and really use up our bandwidth. Be disruptive and do more with less.

We could get our ducks in a row, empower our group with some game changers and, at the end of the day, isn't that the bottom line for us all? To move that goalpost? I mean, that's what's on my radar. I'd kill for that kind of synergy.

Literally.
 

Bill Boehme

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Well, I don't know if my comments here are a value-add, or if they move the needle for anyone. This really isn't in my wheelhouse but let's keep thinking outside the box and maybe we'll get past the low-hanging fruit and deep dive, be innovative and really use up our bandwidth. Be disruptive and do more with less.

We could get our ducks in a row, empower our group with some game changers and, at the end of the day, isn't that the bottom line for us all? To move that goalpost? I mean, that's what's on my radar. I'd kill for that kind of synergy.

Literally.

Well, you've definitely raised the bar. It's clear that you've done your homework, left no stone unturned, and dotted your "T's" and crossed your eyes (or, maybe it's the other way around).

Let's always take the high road and take any forks that we find in the road.
 

Mark Hepburn

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Hey, I'm totally on board and behind you all the way. I'm glad we're all pulling together Bill!
 

Mark Hepburn

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Now if someone could put this parody all together alng with the origin of each phrase.......THAT would be entertaining and informative.

Yes, but not sufficiently shallow and self-important for those who pepper their vocabulary earnestly with such phrases. And that ain't us here, ya think?

:D
 
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I still believe that what we see every day influences what comes to mind, try CONTAINER for instance, and I’m sure lots of people do think about these ship containers, as they are a often seen object, yet how long have these been around, asked the same question 60 years ago and you would not get the same thought/answer IMO.

View attachment 21602

Ya know Leo, you always impress me as someone who thinks outside the container. Thanks.
 
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I hadn't noticed that, but then I don't spend much time watching TV, but when I do, it's usually something on PBS. I don't think that there is much "fraughting" going on there. Any particular network or are they all "fraught"? :D
We listen to NPR in the mornings (and my husband a good part of the day if he's in the house), PBS's The News Hour in the evening, and occasional local news. This "fraught" thing is the latest fad with news writers. Once they take a liking to something, it spreads like wildfire and we're stuck with it. Ten or fifteen years ago it was "begs the question" which isn't used quite as much now, but nearly always incorrectly. "Unique" is a lost case. Language evolves, or devolves, depending on the particular example considered. My gripe is with Talking Heads who are front and center on major news networks and start these fads by not taking care of the language. [Ah, geez, I can't believe I got so worked up about this!:p]
 
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Ohhhhh, now that I'm "worked up" -- what about verb/subject agreement?:mad: A complete mess, even on PBS -- which I hold to a higher standard than local news. I'd bet my Christmas chocolates that nobody diagrams sentences anymore. (Ooops, forgot I'm in a room full of men -- you might not have enjoyed that part of school:D) "A group of people were standing there." What?!? Would you say "There were a group of people." Nope, don't think so.
 

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Well, I don't know if my comments here are a value-add, or if they move the needle for anyone. This really isn't in my wheelhouse but let's keep thinking outside the box and maybe we'll get past the low-hanging fruit and deep dive, be innovative and really use up our bandwidth. Be disruptive and do more with less.

We could get our ducks in a row, empower our group with some game changers and, at the end of the day, isn't that the bottom line for us all? To move that goalpost? I mean, that's what's on my radar. I'd kill for that kind of synergy.

Literally.


I’m, like, flabbergasted! That was, like, wonderful the way you, like, used all those phrases like, in one sentence. Like, I liked that!
 
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