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Why shouldn't I use a roughing gouge on a bowl?

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In my latest issue of the AAW journal there was a very interesting article on "20 Ways NOT to Turn a Bowl." It was stressed not to use a roughing gouge either for the outside or inside of a bowl. I've been turning for less than a year and I'm trying to develop as few bad habits as possible.
1) I've found so far is that what is one person's(or company) description of a tool is not the same as another's description
Are these assumptions correct:
a roughing gouge is a shallow gouge with 50-55 degree bevel?
a bowl gouge is much more u shaped with a 60 to 70 degree bevel generally with a long side grind?
2) If I keep my rest within 1/4 to 1/2 inch of the work what difference does it make which tool I'm using if I'm not aggressive in my cutting?

Thanks for any help you can give me in clarifying this.

Jim
 
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It can be very dangerous. The tang, the part that connects the gouge to the handle is a lot thinner and smaller than on a bowl gouge. If you were to have a catch, the tool could very well snap at the handle and the metal would fly off in an unknown direction. It's not worth using tools in a way they were not designed for. We had a club member who did this and ended up with the tool going through his jaw bone. Not a pretty site.
 
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Jim,

Your first assumption is NOT correct. A SPINDLE Roughing Gouge is a very deep "U" shaped tool; look at the picture on page 14 again as well as Rosand's article starting on page 46.

In addition to Sean's comment, the Spindle Roughing Gouge is designed to cut face grain, as would be the case in spindle turning. It's geometry doesn't do so well when cutting end grain as with a bowl orientation. The result is that if you try it for cutting a bowl, it will have a tendency to cut and skip, cut and skip as the grain orientation switches. That's just begging for a catch, and snapped tool or injured turner or all of the above.

M
 
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Total agreement with the comments above by Sean and Mark. If you look at most spindle roughing gouges they are U shaped and they are sharpened across the bevel. The resulting grind leaves two corners. Those corners are the part of the tool which will easily cause a catch on a bowl, particularly while doing the inside of a bowl. (I'm not exactly sure how one would ever do the inside of a bowl with a spindle roughing gouge without catching).

If you look at a modern bowl gouge that is correctly sharpened, there are no corners to create catches. The correct grind on a bowl gouge greatly reduces the chances of a catch if the gouge is used correctly. Plus in general, there is more steel and this in turn creates a stronger tool which is less likely to snap.

One of the other comments in the article is to generally not go more than one inch off the tool rest (or something similar). If you can keep your tool rest within 1/2" of the project you will have a lot more leverage and a lot more control. Overall the tips in that article were very good.
 
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I'm not questioning the tips in the article. I'll have to look at the picture again. I'm questioning what my understanding of what is generically referred to as a roughing gouge which in the article they want changed to Spindle roughing gouge. In my beginners set the gouges are not U shaped, they are shaped more like a skinny C lying on its back. The Sorby bowl gouge I have is a full U with a grind as demonstrated in the Wolverine vari-grind DVD. I would like to get my terminology right so when I ask a question I'm using the right terms. I don't need to be anymore confused that what I already am. (A quick note, I have no chapters or turning clubs near me so I'm learning by myself, doing, using video's, and books.Sometime's I do a really good job of sending myself down the wrong fork in the road.)

Jim
 
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Jim,

I think that most of your confusion is coming from the terminology used in your "beginner's set" of tools. From your description, you don't have a roughing gouge, and I suspect what you have is the old-style euro-style drop-forged straight gouge. These are commonly put together in sets and sold to beginners who don't know any better, and the marketer calls anything over 1/2" wide a "roughing" tool. It's why I never recommend that new turners buy sets; there's usually some pieces in there that the seller can't get rid of any other way.

When you go back and look at the 2 articles in the Journal, your confusion should be relieved. ;)

Mark
 

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A spindle roughing gouge that Nick refers to is a 1/2" with a very pronounced U shape. Really more like a half a circle with some wings coming up. This makes the cutting area at the bottom of the U fairly large. Most bowl gouges that have a U shaped flute have much taller sides in relation to the bottom U part. The difference is the cutting area. With a spindle roughing gouge you are cutting a pretty large area so there is a lot of force on the tip. bowl gouges start the cut with the tip and then remove more wood with the lower wing.
To answer your other question, yes you can use the rough out gouge to do a bowl as long as everything is optimal, no overhang over the tool rest, you keep the wings away from the bowl, and you take small bites. However if you catch one of those wings you in trouble, and it's really easy to do when roughing because there are alway protrusion that hit the tool pretty hard. Since the roughing gouge only has a small tang the danger of bending or breaking the tool is much greater than the thick tang area of a bowl gouge.
 
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I have a 1/4" spindle gouge that I ground the wings back on and it works pretty good (as long as you don't go too deep) for roughing out boxes and what not... doesn't Richard Raffan use this technic for scoops and boxes?

Jonathon.C
 
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Mark Mandell said:
Jim,

I think that most of your confusion is coming from the terminology used in your "beginner's set" of tools. From your description, you don't have a roughing gouge, and I suspect what you have is the old-style euro-style drop-forged straight gouge. These are commonly put together in sets and sold to beginners who don't know any better, and the marketer calls anything over 1/2" wide a "roughing" tool. It's why I never recommend that new turners buy sets; there's usually some pieces in there that the seller can't get rid of any other way.

When you go back and look at the 2 articles in the Journal, your confusion should be relieved. ;)

Mark

My gouges look like what Richard Raffan calls "shallow roughing gouge" in his book "Turning Wood." Based on other pictures I've just seen I don't own a "spindle roughing gouge". The only "true" gouge I own, in the sense of the articles, is a bowl gouge. So who is the arbiter of terminology in the world of wood turning?

Jim
 

Bill Boehme

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Stoppy said:
.....So who is the arbiter of terminology in the world of wood turning?
There really is not any need for arbitration here WRT terminology as you will find that all of the quality toolmakers are in agreement on what is a roughing gouge, bowl gouge, spindle gouge, skew, scraper, etc. As already mentioned, when you get some of the cheap (in relative terms) stuff made from rolled flat stock, do you find some "innovative" names for tools. Tools that fall into this classification would be those sold by HF and Buck Bros. That does not mean that they are necessarily bad, it just means that they are "different" and that they may not perform the same as expected without some "end user" modifications.

Bill
 
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Here I posted two pix of my spindle gouges... I don't own a bowl gouge. I think for some small hollowing jobs these work nicely. If you don't have a bowl gouge you could just as soon use a round nose scraper. A little slower than a bowl gouge, but they work fine! P. 57 of Turning Wood tells how to grind the wings back on a gouge and Pp. 127-128 show how to use a shallow gouge for hollowing endgrain. Most beginner tool sets that I have seen come with shallow gouges (not bowl gouges) so that is what you've probably got... again I would just as soon use a scraper because hollowing with a shallow gouge takes a little bit of technic.

-A roughing gouge is usually a large gouge (1"-1 1/2" is standard) that is a big "U" shape (for the deep roughing gouges) or a very slight curved shape (for the shallow roughing gouges) -- you can't mistake one of these!

- A spindle gouge is like a smaller fine version of a roughing gouge. They aren't that deep and they are good for detailing.

- A bowl gouge is usually deeper proportionately and just a beefier gouge... spindle gouges look like a semi-circle if you look down the tip, but a bowl gouge looks more like 3/4 of a circle or even a full circle - if you go to woodcraft.com or some site like that you'll be able to see the difference.

These three gouges are pretty much the standard gouges you'll see anywhere.

Jonathon.C
 

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gouges

Hello there. It seems to me that what you have is what we would consider (here in the UK, at least) as an "old fashioned" spindle roughing gouge. These are a shallow gouge and often had the bevel you mentioned ground on them. This is supported by your statement that it is a similar tool to the one Raffan uses in the video, as that is indeed an old style roughing gouge.

The modern spindle roughing gouge has a far deeper flute and is ground straight across at a 45 deg angle. This tool would not be at all suitable for bowl turning.

So it would seem that you have an old style roughing gouge which is fine for it's intended purpose but not for bowl turning. Although I should add that the roughing gouge can be used for long flowing coves on spindle work.

As for your question about the toolrest...

Simply put the answer is this; the closer you can safely get the toolrest to the workpiece the more control you will have over the tool and, consequently, the quality of cuts you make. You will do no actual harm by having the rest half an inch away, but you will make a much better cut with it closer. A more obscure result of a closer toolrest is that because the gouge cuts better, with less vibration, the cutting edge will last longer...although you may not see this as a perceptable difference.

I hope this helps rather than confuses!

Andy
www.cobwebcrafts.co.uk
 
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Stoppy, PM me with an e-mail addy and I'll drop you a Quicktime clip showing a rough with the big gouge. It's around 3MB, so I'll wait 24 hours or so for anyone who'd like to be CC'd to answer, and then put it up through this pitiful dialup connection. Shows initial position pretty clearly, but after that you'll have to deduce the method from the shavings produced.
 
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MM,

It turns out what was referred to as roughing gouges in my starter set are actually "continental gouges". Mine are not the deep U shaped gouges, they are more along the line lines of a skinny C lying on its back. I've not had a problem using them on the outside of bowls from time to time. They certainly work fine for spindle work so for the time being I'm not planning on getting a big honker of a roughing gouge. Thanks for the offer, though. Speaking of dialup I've become so dependent on computers that I don't know what I'd do if I had to return to dialup. Even the cable modem seems incredibly slow at times.

Jim
 
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Shallow vs deep

Jonathan. Would an end on view (rather than the top view)of the tip be clearer in showing the C shape? I have trouble in all the mags, and books telling where the flute is, and perhaps placing cream colored masking tape in the flute would delineate the flute better. Just a thought, :) Gretch
 
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The answer to the original question is that you can turn anything with any tool you want, including a bowl with a Roughing Gouge, as long as these five (5) criteria are met --

1) the tool is solidly supported by the tool rest,

2) you are riding the tool bevel on the wood

3) the tool is presented such that there are no rotational or other forces trying to twist it out of your hand.

4) the tool overhang past the toolrest is not so long that you can't control the tool or there is danger of bending or breaking the tool

5) you can keep any sharp corners out of the way

We often use specific tools for specific things because it is just easier to do these things with some tools than others. If you can figure out how to do all 5 of them with a Roughing Gouge, you can turn a bowl with it.
 
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Stoppy said:
It turns out what was referred to as roughing gouges in my starter set are actually "continental gouges". Mine are not the deep U shaped gouges, they are more along the line lines of a skinny C lying on its back. I've not had a problem using them on the outside of bowls from time to time.

Have to be the best all-purpose gouges out there. Avoid the temptation to start pulling back the ears, rather grind them with the same bevel angle and an extremely modest "nose," and you'll find yourself using them everywhere. Their only problem is they don't hollow as well. That's where the blunter-nosed, swept-back cylindrical gouges come in. When the opening's made wide enough, they pare to a fair-thee-well. Of course, as you look at them, you'll recognize that they are just a section of a big "roughing" gouge. Makes them, and the rougher easy to stabilize along and across the bevel, because you can drop or raise the handle on the continental to get a sharper spot in the parting position (or twist the rougher) while the bevel remains in contact with the work as your depth limiter and cut stabilizer. An equation in fewer variables.

The reason I say to limit the nose curvature is so you can use them in the preferred position, standing almost on edge, which gives more surface in contact on a thin shaving than a deeper grind. If the curve is too rapid, you have to drop the handle more to use the same spots, and as you recall from your vectors in Earth Science, it means the tool rest takes less, and you, the only other option, take more force. Couple of quick shots of convex work. You can see the concave cutting angles in the torn endgrain thread.
 

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In general, spindle roughing gouges are not a good substitute for a bowl gouge. Nick Cook's article did not get into it heavily but there have been some good supporting discussion in this thread on why spindle roughing gouges are not a good fit for bowls, and in many cases they can be downright dangerous.
 
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Im new to all this and Now that you guys got me totally confused and scared I dont know what tools i have . So how do i go about identifying my tools ?
 
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tool identification

I doubt anybody's intention was to cause confusion...especially for a new turner.

The first question should be: do any of your tools have the manufacturer's name on them? I.E.;Robert Sorby, Craft Supplies, Hamlet, Record, Etc. etc.
If so, you can probably identify them from the relevant catalogue or website.

A better soltion would be to find your local turning club and go along with your tools. If the clubs in the USA are anything like the UK clubs I'm sure you'll be welcomed and given any help you need.

Failing that, you could take a digital picture of all, or individually, and post here or email them, and I'm certain you have your answers by return mail.

A helpful website can be found here:

http://www.peter.hemsley.btinternet.co.uk/CDB/Technical/Beginners/beginners.html

This website is run by Peter Hemesly, the owner of www.toolpost.co.uk, and the UK dealer for WivaMac lathes, and a throughoughly nice guy.

I hope some of this helps. If not, please feel free to email me...and I'm sure that many of the others users would offer the same.

Andy
 
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XXAMIAM said:
Im new to all this and Now that you guys got me totally confused and scared I dont know what tools i have . So how do i go about identifying my tools ?

If you're scared, make sure it's for the right reason. Nomenclature shouldn't slow you down. There are forged pattern - uniform thickness - and ground pattern - flute ground into a cylindrical piece of stock - gouges. From there on out, people have them ground in so many configurations and have so many legends as to completely befuddle, but not scare a thinking man.

My second favorite legend about gouges is that "bowl" gouges are stronger than "spindle" gouges. One can only speculate as to whether they select inferior steel at the outset, or deliberately weaken them after the flute is ground. There's even more metal on the "spindle" gouge for people who don't know about beam strength.

Look at Russ' five points and stick to them. My notes follow.

1) Remember your force vectors. 90 degrees to the rest is best. Closer you can stay to that while cutting, the less the cut depends on your strength or reaction.

2) More bevel better. Makes a gouge with a large radius more stable. Less likely to catch, because it can't turn if there's no space between bevel and wood. That's a great reason for having the same bevel angle all the way, as forged pattern gouges can have.

3) Of course, there are always rotational forces, that's what a lathe does - rotate wood. The game is to make that steep entry cut where they're greatest with body english, and smoothly transition to a peel. You can take advantage of the rotation in a couple of ways, too. Since the greater diameter moves at a greater speed, it wants to throw a tool outward, which is in the safe direction on convex surfaces. Nice, but you pay the price inside. Second, if you orient the tool as you do your pocket knife when whittling, at a skewed angle, the rotation draws the wood down the edge, helping it cut itself. Best cut is the one which takes least effort by you and the lathe.

4) Second rule of turning is never give leverage to the piece. Keep the rest in tight as you can, and don't hesitate to stop the lathe twenty times to adjust it closer. Remember the first rule as you restart the lathe. That's the one that says stay out of the way of flinging chunks.

5) Of course, all tools have sharp edges, only some have corners. All tools can get caught in tight spots with a moment's inattention. A catch is just a case where you've stabbed, rather than sliced. The less maneuvering room you have, the smaller the tool you should use, though the grind of similar-sized tools may differ enough to allow one to be safely used, where the other would grab and smack you.

Then there are tools which don't work unless you bend rules two and five. They're called scrapers.
 
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Good point N_Addy. And the first post in that thread also makes an excellent point:
  • Page 14 - Item 9, Nick Cook's article on "Twenty Ways Not to Turn a Bowl"
  • Page 48 - Bob Rosand's article on the Spindle Roughing Gouge
  • Page 49 - Side Bar safety statement from AAW

Spindle roughing gouges are pictured in those articles. The articles are good references.
 
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When I read the article in the AAW journal I could see the potential problems with what are now being referred to as spindle roughing gouges. I'm new enough (less than a year) to turning to not know the history and nomenclature of all the tools. The woodnet thread deals with the deep U shaped roughing gouges none of which I own. I had not had the problems described in the article when I used my flatter skinny "c" shaped "continental gouges" to rough out the outside of bowls. So I posed my original question.

I've gotten some very good info from the ensuing replies. I'm not questioning the article or its info. I was just questioning why I wasn't having any of those problems, and I know it's not because I'm this super fast learner of technique with tools.

Jim
 
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Stoppy said:
I've gotten some very good info from the ensuing replies. I'm not questioning the article or its info. I was just questioning why I wasn't having any of those problems, and I know it's not because I'm this super fast learner of technique with tools.

I see you have the same philosophy I have. I'm nobody special, so if I can do it, anybody can.

Here's a tip for a beginner that can save you and your equipment a lot of strain. If you look at a lot of woodturners' sites, you see them with a simple slabbed bowl blank mounted and spun up. I don't need such challenges, so I use my saw to advantage prior to the first mount.

You'll need your imagination to mentally make this piece of firewood into a big, rounded bowl slab. I have a 1/2 blade on the saw, so I didn't care to nibble it round for the demo.

Upper left shows that there a couple of places where there is no wood on either side. If it's your plan to go round, you can make things easier by scribing a limit line around your blank as you can see with this simulation, matching your blade to the slope, then trimming around the blank. That wood is not part of your plan anyway, and since out-of-balance is exponential, with the weight differential times velocity (which increases with distance from center) squared, you really help your case a lot by taking away what you can at the saw. Easy, quick, and cuts down on the bounce better than adding pounds to your lathe base. Also keeps you from knuckling yourself in a moment of inattention. Sometimes I even make an outer and inner cut at a second angle. With the old lathe having a minimum speed of ~600 for a 12" swing, it came in handy.

Secondary thought. If your piece is deeper than the capacity of your bandsaw, you can rough it with your chainsaw, tapering inward, then put it large diameter down with a template underneath and round out a piece which would otherwise have corners and facets which might cause you to pull out the scrub plane or gouge and hack away to get it to swing over the bed. You save your depth, too.

Oh yes, if you don't have a scrub plane, it's a great tool for flattening and bringing into parallel, or at least close enough so you don't beat yourself and the lathe to death.
 

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