wolverine jig and the bowl gouge

Discussion in 'Tutorials and Tips' started by Peter Skellenger, Aug 25, 2007.

  1. Peter Skellenger

    Peter Skellenger

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    does anyone have an excellent, proven method to use the wolverine jig to get a good grind on a bowl gouge.... "good grind" being relative, I know. I guess I am wondering how to get the jig to leave the wing bevel shorter than the nose of a deep fluted bowl gouge. I read the fairly recent article in the aaw journal and made one of the jigs for a 45 degree grind. I have followed that article to the letter and the wings of the gouge still have a longer bevel than the nose of the tool. It's better but not correct, or so "they say" anyway. I don't think it should matter how long I want the bevel to go back on the tool or what angle I want on the tool right? I just want to be able to set it up so the bevel angle is consistent all the way around the tool. Probably a worn out question but I have tried a cpl different methods using the jig and cannot get it right! HELLLLLP! ;)
     
  2. Gordon Seto

    Gordon Seto

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    With different bowl gouge flute design, you will get different results.

    You can try this one as starting point. You just print out the full size pdf file and lay the Oneway Varigrind jig over the pictures. The jig only guides you to the correct angle; you still have to pay attention to the shape of the grind.

    http://www.thompsonlathetools.com/images/gallery/sharpening.pdf

    Gordon
     
  3. Peter Skellenger

    Peter Skellenger

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    I just tried that printout 10 min ago and did not have good results with that either. I think I need to really grind down the nose of the gouge or something.... make the end of the gouge more round rather than pointy. It still bothers me that I can look at a picture of a gouge ground at 40 degrees with 3/4" sweep back and see that the wings of the swept back portion have less bevel than the nose of the gouge. If this printout and the directions in the aaw article are the way to do that, I am not getting it for some reason. I CAN get a decent grind with it if I do not sweep the bevel back very far at all but once I start to sweep the bevel around to the side I start peeling off tons of metal and end up with a bevel much longer than the bevel on the nose. I would have to actually change the position of the jig to get anything else. I must be doing something wrong... I will have to try it again tomorrow. It must be the shaping of the gouge that I have wrong....
     
  4. captjim

    captjim

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    Craft Supplies USA has a new item called profile pro. Its a short piece of gouge that has been ground to the proper profile. I have never used one but you might want to investigate. Item 088-4002 (14.99). I rented the video of the Ellsworth gouge from Smartflix.com. Ellsworth used a blackboard to decribe the desired profile and the reasons for the profile and then demonstrated the technique (9.99 to your mail box).
    Profile-Pro

    Profile-Pro setup tools make sharpening with your jig easier than ever. These setup tools act as a visual reference designed to help you choose and properly adjust your grinding system to produce the grind you want on bowl or spindle gouges. Profile-Pro setup tool profiles are identical to those used by Craft Supplies USA instructors and many of today’s top professional turners. Note: Setup is done with grinding wheels stopped and grinder unplugged.

    Ellsworth Signature Gouge

    ...with David Ellsworth
    The purpose of this video is to explain the proper method of creating and maintaining the "Ellsworth Grind" on a bowl turning gouge. Also clearly demonstrated are the roughing, shaping, shear scraping and final smoothing cut all done with a gouge using the "Ellsworth Grind".
    (about 60 minutes)


     
  5. Richard Baker

    Richard Baker RIP

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    Peter,
    Excellent advice above. The sample profile should be extremely helpful. May have to get one.

    Have you tried adjusting the distance that the gouge extends beyond where it is clamped in the jig? Every reference I have seen says this is 1-3/4" to 2", like it is not a variable. This always gave the same problem I think you are having. I finally achieved an acceptable (but still needs some tweaking) grind using a much longer extension. That is, the gouge sticks out several inches beyond the "clamp block".

    For ref. my fixture is home made but fairly true to one of the online references, and the target grind is a 60 degree included angle all the way around. My "practice" gouge is an inexpensive one, and as Gordon mentioned, has a considerably different profile than the Sorby. So even when I someday get the "practice" gouge grind "perfect", it will not transfer directly to the Sorby without some adjustments.

    Keep trying. You can get there from here.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2007
  6. odie

    odie

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    Pete......

    I don't know if this will be of any help, but I ran across this video on youtube the other day that shows a fellow sharpening a bowl gouge with the wolverine.

    otis

    click:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVWrT5LDeuA





    .
     
  7. American & Proud

    American & Proud

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  8. Kenneth

    Kenneth

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    Ellsworth Grind

    Ellsworth's videos are excellent. His jig is excellent. Even a dummy like me can get the right grind. Using the Geiger setup jig makes it even easier. Good luck.
     
  9. Angelo

    Angelo President Emeritus

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    Setting the Jig

    If you have followed the setup dimensions for locating the grinding jig. You should have no trouble using the Wolverine. Check the dimensions offered in Oneway's instructions and get as close to those numbers as you can.

    You must realize that there are, if you follow the instructions, at least 4 variables that can change the shape of the grind.

    The variables are: the distance the tool sticks out of the articulated arm (the Vari Grind). The angle of that arm as it is presented to the grind stone. The distance the center of the wheel is above the work bench and the distance the Vee arm is out from the face of the grinding wheel.

    One of the things that I regularly do (when working on someone else's grinder) is to set the jig up by using a sharpened tool to restrict the variable. In other words. place the tool in the varigrind (I let it protude 2"), set the angle of the varigrind for a bowl gouge (check your instructions) then lay the tool on the wheel (with the grinder off) fiddle with the vee arm and the angle of the varigrind until you see that it will grind a similar shape.

    I usually do this when I give a class with a grinder that is not my own. It's a quick and easy way to jig the jig from the tool.

    Don't forget to mark the settings when you finally get it right. This will help you reset it after you break it down to grind another tool.

    A

    PS: I think it is important to use a balanced and trued wheel before starting any of this. I also prefer the set up on the recommended 8” wheel as opposed to the hollow grind you get on a 6” wheel.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2007
  10. Peter Skellenger

    Peter Skellenger

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    control arm variable

    thanks for all the advice... I was hoping to get some responses! I have watched the oneway video and I have followed a few different instructions for "no problem" grinding. One thing that springs to mind is that all of the 3 diff methods I have tried (the Thompson tools, Oneway, and the article in the aaw journal) are methods to grind bowl gouges and all 3 of them put the control arm of the var-grind in different places but they all have the toll extended 1.75 or2.00 " out from the vari grind. I don't see how this could possibly produce identical grinds (assuming each of the 3 methods is "correct") with bevel angles being the same (say 50 degrees) all the way around the flute. Each of these methods is very specific about where to set the arm claiming this is the correct place for the arm to get the right angle around the side of the tool but they are all different? Oneway says 5 notches down while the aaw article said 23 degrees or roughly only 2 notches down and Thompson is in between these! How can this be?

    I guess my understanding of the jig is that setting the control arm is WHAT gives you the same bevel angle on the nose of the tool and on the sides of the tool. I feel like a moron! This is supposed to be easy. I am going baaack to the grinder in a while but I think I will continue freehand for a day so I don;t have an aneurysm! ;) Thanks again.

    I will take a cpl pics and see if I can show you all what I am getting. Maybe that will help.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2007
  11. odie

    odie

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    Pete:

    I think what's important, here, is to remember there is more than one way to skin a cat! Everyone has their own ways of doing things and nobody is doing things wrong.

    The wolverine is one of the most popular grinding jigs in use by woodturners, and I've had mine for a good 15yrs now. I got mine long before I ever had a computer, and subsequently long before I was communicating with any other woodturners. Because of that, my methods of doing things are truly borne of my own thought processes, with very little outside influences.

    As a result of that, I can see and understand that I do MANY things differently than many of the other turners. This AAW forum, which I've only recently joined, has been a very eye-opening experience for me in just that way. It has made me realize, and value, all the experience I've gained completely on my own, and without outside influence.

    In some ways, my "lone wolf" methods of learning have been a detriment to progress......while in other ways, I truly enjoy being someone that has developed his own unique methods of doing things.....because I feel it sets my turnings apart from "the crowd".


    Soooooo.....just jump in there and do it! Grind some gouges, and try them out. If you're using an angle of bevel that is a little different than what the "group think" determines to be "the correct way of doing it".....don't worry about it. Smile to yourself and realize you've not only learned to do a grind that is a little different.....but, you've also learned how to use that unusual grind of yours in ways that others haven't even thought of......yet!!!!:cool2:

    otis of cologne
     

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  12. Gordon Seto

    Gordon Seto

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    You can't. The difference in front and side angle varies depending on the flute design of your gouges.

    You have to use the Stuart Batty grind to get a constant front and side angle. The following video is Mike Mahoney demonstrating that method. Also there was an article in FWW magazine regarding this subject several months ago.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m8-8MNhpvY

    The Thompson uses the same setting on both the "U" and "V" shape bowl gouges, but the final shapes of the two grinds look different.

    How do you don't like your grind? Can you post a picture of your grind?

    Instead of wasting the tool steel, may be all you need is a little adjustment on your gouge presentation angle, tool rest height. Woodturning is not that precise, the tool is not held in a fixed device; you can rotate, lift and swing the gouge presentation . Besides not all turning materials are the same; some are denser. There are always compromises: we can't never obtain sharpness and durability of the edge at the same time.

    Gordon
     
  13. KEW

    KEW

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    I'm not familiar with all of the sources you mention, but I suspect they are providing the means to get an acceptable grind rather than identical grinds. I have been to 5 hands-on classes with pros. 3 of them considered my (Ellsworth) bowl gouge grind "unacceptable" and resharpened it to their own grind. This has been a great education (somewhat to the expense of my bowl gouge) as I have recognized that (for example) the shear cut John Jordan uses favors a very flat cutting edge on the wings. These different grinds and the cuts they allow may have been a source of confusion had I not been turning a couple of years before I took these workshops.
    The beauty of the jigs is that you should be able to have the stability of a consistent grind to learn from. Choose one source and work on developing that grind until you get comfortable with it. Then as (if) you see the need start making adjustments.
    The ideal scenario is if you can find a local "mentor" and replicate their grind and techniques.

    You mentioned perhaps needing to grind down the point of your gouge. You are probably right. Like Gordon said, the flute shape is a factor. If you have a V flute you would typically grind it to more of point (but the tip should still be well rounded - definitely not a point!), while a more open U flute should be better rounded.

    Once you have the jigs set up like your chosen reference, you still control how much you grind off of the tip and the wings so keep that in mind as you are shaping your tool.

    Last, here is a link to some different grinds. The first is a U flute and the second is a V flute. It is still kind of hard to see the true profiles, but may be useful in seeing what works for others.

    http://www.woodcentral.com/newforum/grinds.shtml

    Good luck with it and if you still have trouble, post photos of your grind (from several views) and you can get some specific help.

    Cheers,
    Kurt
     
  14. KEW

    KEW

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    I'm not familiar with all of the sources you mention, but I suspect they are providing the means to get an acceptable grind rather than identical grinds. I have been to 5 hands-on classes with pros. 3 of them considered my (Ellsworth) bowl gouge grind "unacceptable" and resharpened it to their own grind. This has been a great education (somewhat to the expense of my bowl gouge) as I have recognized that (for example) the shear cut John Jordan uses favors a very flat cutting edge on the wings. These different grinds and the cuts they allow may have been a source of confusion had I not been turning a couple of years before I took these workshops.
    The beauty of the jigs is that you should be able to have the stability of a consistent grind to learn from. Choose one source and work on developing that grind until you get comfortable with it. Then as (if) you see the need start making adjustments.
    The ideal scenario is if you can find a local "mentor" and replicate their grind and techniques.

    You mentioned perhaps needing to grind down the point of your gouge. You are probably right. Like Gordon said, the flute shape is a factor. If you have a V flute you would typically grind it to more of point (but the tip should still be well rounded - definitely not a point!), while a more open U flute should be better rounded.

    Once you have the jigs set up like your chosen reference, you still control how much you grind off of the tip and the wings so keep that in mind as you are shaping your tool.

    Last, here is a link to some different grinds. The first is a U flute and the second is a V flute. It is still kind of hard to see the true profiles, but may be useful in seeing what works for others.

    http://www.woodcentral.com/newforum/grinds.shtml

    Good luck with it and if you still have trouble, post photos of your grind (from several views) and you can get some specific help.

    Cheers,
    Kurt
     
  15. Peter Skellenger

    Peter Skellenger

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    Odie- is this an 8" grinder? I have to run out to look at my set-up again. I see your grinder is positioned above the oneway bases a good amount. This would put the wheel higher and tool lower on the wheel. I did follow the instructions for the set up but it got me thinking that maybe my grinder needs to be higher. This would put my tool lower on the wheel and might grind the wings less. This is the whole problem.... the wings are being ground too much leaving the cutting edge unsupported ... I can cut with the tools but I know it is not right. The risk of a catch is high and... well, it's not right. The nose angle is whatever I want it set at (say 50 degrees) but then the wings are ground so much that the bevel is super steep and freaking hard to use! The whole purpose of the jig for me is to get consistent results and not rip through the new gouges I just got (nice glaser's). I can grind freehand but not very well... but at least I don;t have to be so tense turning with these steep beveled wings.

    I will check the height of the grinder relative to the oneway base and look at the instructions again.
     
  16. odie

    odie

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    No, my grinder is 6". The spacer I have underneath my grinder elevates it to near what grinds the Wolverine would produce, had I an 8" grinder......but, then again, probably not all manufacturers have the grinder shaft to the same height above the mounting surface. You get what you get, and there probably isn't any combination of grinders, wheel diameters, shaft heights, etc., that the owner of those components can't use to his satisfaction.

    At this point, I'm sure I'm not the only one here that is having trouble visualizing exactly what you need to do. Pictures of your set-up and the gouge you are sharpening would be very helpful to us who are attempting to help you out.

    My first thought is your V-support is too far away from the grinding wheel, but that's just a guess and might not be the answer.

    You should take into consideration that you probably won't be able to match the grind exactly from one sharpening to the next. You can get very close, but it probably won't be an exact match.

    Once you get a grind you like, it's not too hard to duplicate it over and over again. Which notch on the vari-grind jig you used is probably the most important thing to remember when searching for a duplicate grind....after that, the approximate amount your gouge extends through the jig. When those things are done, the third sequence is the amount of extension you set the V-support. Use a light, and look at the grind from the side, as you observe the clearance between the gouge and the grinding wheel. Doing this, it's a snap to set the V-support to the proper place prior to locking it down.

    Again, if you can supply us with some pictures, you'll probably have a dozen helpful turners chiming in with advice.

    ....odie
     
  17. Kenneth

    Kenneth

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    Wolverine Instructions

    I have found the Wolverine instructions problematical. Oneway recommends that the tool extend 1.75" from the holder. This causes the holder to rub against the wheel. Using 2" as Angelo (& David Ellsworth) recommend, solve this issue.
     
  18. Gordon Seto

    Gordon Seto

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    Peter,

    It doesn't matter, the grinding wheel is round; your cutting edge is always tangent to the wheel. Your set up has to within the setup guide line is because your jig and wheel guard may not have clearance if your set up is too low or too high. The leg setting on the jig determines the amount of side grind. If I use my jig on other grinder, as long as I get the same nose angle, I will get the same grind. The wheel diameter only affects the degree of hollow grind.

    If you look at a brand new original Jerry Glaser bowl gouge (prior to CET), the front angle is definitely different than the side angles. I believe if you follow the Thompson gouge set up, you will get an almost copy of the original Jerry Glaser grind.

    Gordon
     
  19. Bill Turpin

    Bill Turpin

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    How to keep grind once you find it

    As the wheel wears down the v-block must be moved closer. Make a ± 12" long crescent moon shape in thin plywood or hardboard. Cut the moon in half across it's largest width. Cut this new edge to match the curve of the outside of the wheel. Put the tip of the moon in the v-block. Customize the moon's length to match the v-blocks distance with your favorite grind. As the wheels gets smaller over time move the v-block so that the curve of the half moon touches the wheel and the point is in the v-block. With the same notch and extension measurements your grind will stay the same for months with any wheel on that grinder. If grinders are installed to Wolverines setup instructions it will work on ANYBODY's grinder. I give credit for this idea to Joe Ruminski and Warren Carpenter of Carolina Mountain Woodturners.

    Bill Turpin in WNC mountains
     
  20. Peter Skellenger

    Peter Skellenger

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    I got in touch with Terry daniel and he set me straight. I was able to follow his set up and get a good grind instantly. I appologize for maybe not being clear about the problems if people are not understanding what I am having trouble with. I was able to put my protractor in the flute of the 3/4 glaser gouge and had 50 degrees on the nose. Since the tool is so big, I could measure the side grind from inside the flute on the side and this measured 30 degrees! If you can picture a 50 degree nose and 30 degree side grind, you can imagine how intense it might be to stick this tool anywhere near the inside of a bowl. There is hardly any metal supporting the cutting edge on the side making the wings of the tool extremely prone to a catch. The first time I tried it, bang!!
    By using TD's method, I can get a grind that is nearly the same all the way around the tool... not exact.. maybe 45 on the sides but as Gordon points out, this might be pretty common. These Glaser tools are the older (non CET) versions, not ground at all and have 90 degree blunt edges, so i was starting from nothing and since I have not been able to get the jig to work ever, I did not have a tool from which to reference the grind i was trying to get. Anyway- I got it now! thanks a lot for all the suggestions!
     

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