Woodturning Project: Green Apricot Bowl Disaster

[jschnell1203]

Check out this video and a real lucky man.


http://youtu.be/FlhWF4M9CO4

 

[odie]

After watching the video, I went back to the beginning to see if there were any clues about a possible separation in the bowl block. You could see where it would eventually separate, but I couldn't see any definite "red flags". Of course, nothing is better than seeing it in the real physical world.....and, it's possible it could have looked more intimidating when seen through one's eyes, rather than a video.......

He did mention that he would have been better protected, if he had used his "cage"......but, not very many of us have one of those. Looks like the face shield did a pretty good job of protecting him.......the worst of it are a few red marks on his forehead. We all know these face shields aren't really intended to protect against flying missiles......so, what then?

The thought occurred to me that something like a football helmet's face guard might be a pretty good thing to have from time to time. Is there something like this, that could protect from chips, like the face shield does......and flying chunks of wood, like the football face guard would do? .....What is needed is something like a combination face guard/face shield, that is specifically intended for shop use?

There are times when I don't feel that comfortable turning a specific piece of wood, because my instincts tell me there is a definite possibility this piece might not handle the stresses involved at the lathe. For those times, I rely on the face shield and careful positioning of my face and body out of the "line of fire". My glasses are safety rated and are always worn........the face shield is used about 99 percent of the time. (The exception being the rare occasion when I must see with absolute clarity.)

(If I had a "cage" already, I'd probably use it from time to time.......but, those things look like they would just get in the way. I know darn well that if I had a cage, it would be removed so that it doesn't interfere with other lathe functions. We all know that convenience is something that is very meaningful when installing, and using safety devices.......I suspect most turners completely remove the cage, and never use it.....or don't always use it when they should.......specifically, because it's a pain in the neck to install, and uninstall. .......If you have thoughts on this, why don't you tell us what your experiences with using, or not using the cage are.......)

ooc

 

[Bill Boehme]

I think that Odie's comments are spot on. I know about 8 to 10 owners of Powermatic 3520 lathes and none have the cages installed.

 

[Gretch Flo]

accident

Wasn't he leaning over the tool rest (from the top view video??)-i.e in the line of fire?? I also see his "on" button (off too?) was at the head stock. Gretch

 

[Bill Boehme]

Wasn't he leaning over the tool rest (from the top view video??)-i.e in the line of fire?? I also see his "on" button (off too?) was at the head stock. Gretch

Since his head would be close to the camera, it can give a false perception of how close he was. In any event he probably was a bit close to the line of fire. Also, things can come off the lathe over a wider range than simply straight to the side.

A couple months ago, a softball size chunk came off a large mesquite turning that I was doing. This is not too surprising when turning "interesting" pieces of mesquite. I was well out of the line of fire and the piece ricocheted around for quite a while before finally coming to rest.

Could you clarify your comment about the START-STOP switch.

 

[Ian Thorn]

I over came the of switch problem by not having a fixed position ,I haveve glued 4 small magnets to the back and can place it behind the tailstock on the lathe bed or where I like it allso makes it easy to adjust turning speed. I have allso been hit in the mouth when a peice let go and the face sheild was hanging on ita hook above my head, now I put it on

 

[MichaelMouse]

There's ALWAYS a bark pocket at a branch root. If he was not packing and gluing all along, he was asking for a flyoff. He also mentioned "rot," consistent with what looks to be a whitish streak under the wax, another risk.

Knowing all that, then keeping the rest so far from the piece, something no one has mentioned yet, and leaning into the throw zone is beyond foolish. It would also have helped had he been cutting above center, where the tool would be pushing the errant piece away from him, rather than lifting, as his cut is doing. He made some very bad decisions compounded by bad moves.

Shields are problematic. The lexan windowed type distort, then load with dust and green wood splatter and quickly become worse than useless. Cage types are better, but they also tend to extend more past the headstock than is comfortable for cutting from the end, where things can be kept at arm's length.

I launched more than one piece in the days of my Masterchuck. Having the rest high and close knocked it away even when I wasn't pushing away with the tool. I may still take chances with questionable pieces in hope of getting to display those feathers around the branch root, but I anticipate the problems that go with, counter them with glue, and take care to not be where I might get hurt if things go wrong. Just makes (takes?) good sense.

 

[Gretch Flo]

start button

Could you clarify your comment about the START-STOP switch.

Not sure what you mean Bill.He starts the lathe by reaching beyond tool rest towards the head stock to turn the switch on. Gretch

 

[Rob Wallace]

This video is now spreading all over the place - I've seen it posted on a couple turning forums, Facebook, etc.. Interesting thing is that he should have seen this coming, given the kind of wood he selected, and some of the other conditions he set-up that led to this, as discussed previously. The excuses he gives are pretty lame, as is the quality of the face shield he was using. He was a lucky guy twice: 1 - he didn't get seriously hurt, and 2 - he caught the episode on video so he could post it on-line.

The "cage" for my Jet 1642 still has the original bubble wrap around it, and it's been stored in the attic for the past 7 or 8 years or more. Never used it; never will. Does anyone want to buy a "NOS" cage from a Jet 1642? I was saving the cage, as well as the 'wonderful' under-the-ways tool caddy & its bracket, for when I ultimately sell the lathe. Even if I get my new Robust AB soon, I still may not sell the 1642. I guess having 5 lathes would be OK....

The cage mount bracket on the headstock of the 1642 (and PM 3520) makes an excellent mount for Moffatt lights, and for the bar I use to support my dust collection intake. The bracket is probably more useful than the cage!

I will continue to rely on my careful evaluation of the wood I turn, experience, and common sense, and will ALWAYS use full face protection that includes lower-face and jaw protection.

Maybe there should be a web site where all of the "how-not-to-turn" videos are compiled so newcomers and old-timers can go to get some background examples of what can happen if you either don't know what you're doing, or let your guard down. Might be instructive, if not entertaining!

Have a great weekend!

Rob

 

[odie]

There's ALWAYS a bark pocket at a branch root. If he was not packing and gluing all along, he was asking for a flyoff. He also mentioned "rot," consistent with what looks to be a whitish streak under the wax, another risk.

Knowing all that, then keeping the rest so far from the piece, something no one has mentioned yet, and leaning into the throw zone is beyond foolish. It would also have helped had he been cutting above center, where the tool would be pushing the errant piece away from him, rather than lifting, as his cut is doing. He made some very bad decisions compounded by bad moves.

Shields are problematic. The lexan windowed type distort, then load with dust and green wood splatter and quickly become worse than useless. Cage types are better, but they also tend to extend more past the headstock than is comfortable for cutting from the end, where things can be kept at arm's length.

I launched more than one piece in the days of my Masterchuck. Having the rest high and close knocked it away even when I wasn't pushing away with the tool. I may still take chances with questionable pieces in hope of getting to display those feathers around the branch root, but I anticipate the problems that go with, counter them with glue, and take care to not be where I might get hurt if things go wrong. Just makes (takes?) good sense.

Hello MM.......

You may be correct that the separation was actually a bark groth between the crotch limbs. If this is the case, it is much deeper than I am used to seeing. A few inches would be more consistent with my experiences with this, but this one appeared to be much more extensive......8 or 10 inches wide and deep, something like that. (Thanks to the OP for bringing this video to our attention, because it does serve to inform how far the bark can go!)

This was wet unseasoned wood........just wondering what kind of glue you would have used for this........?

I agree with you, Gretch, and Bill, in that the turners head was in the way.

It looks to me like the tool rest was less than about 1/2". For roughing out while using a large diameter gouge, the bevel can be rather long, and requiring some clearance allowence for that.........this doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me. He did seem to be pointing the gouge downward very slightly, and I'd have to agree that this isn't the best way to do it. As you say, it very well could have contributed to his catch.

ooc

 

[odie]

Not sure what you mean Bill.He starts the lathe by reaching beyond tool rest towards the head stock to turn the switch on. Gretch

Howdy Gretch.......

The point you are making here about start/stop switches is valid, and if I'm not mistaken, all Powermatic lathes have the switches on the headstock. This is where my original switches were located on my Woodfast, and I now have them installed near the tailstock end of the lathe.

I believe you have a Oneway 1640 with that "swing-arm" start/stop switch. I've had some thoughts on that, but have never actually used one. To my way of thinking, it seems like a switch-box that is not in the same location every time, might introduce a new set of safety considerations. If it's not consistently in the same location, it seems like this could be a disadvantage when a turner needs to hit the stop button under an emergency situation.........thoughts on that?

On the other hand, the Oneway swing-arm switches, along with others that use magnets, do, most definitely have a distinct advantage. In these cases, the location of the switches can be adjusted to the variables at any given time.

There are advantages to both, but you can't have both!

ooc

 

[robo hippy]

I am not sure how 'experienced' he is. When discussing the piece, he mentioned 'some rot'. RED FLAG! When cutting the general circle, he should have seen the bark inclusion/fault that ran through the piece. RED FLAG! Crotch wood. RED FLAG! When turning, since the integrity of the piece was at best questionable, he should have been turning at much slower speeds, turning off the lathe frequently to see how bad the fault was, and NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES should he have been standing any where near the line of fire. The face mask used is good only for keeping the shavings out of your face, and has almost no impact protection. If he had been leaning another inch or two forward, he would have been in the emergency room at the very least. Maybe I know all of this from years of turning/experience. It is habit.

Reaching across the line of fire for the off switch is a minimal risk.

No amount of glue would have fixed that fault in the wood to keep it from separating. Even if you chased it with thin glue, then filled with thick or medium, and let it sit for a couple of days for it to totally cure.

Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from, well, bad judgement. From Will Rogers.

robo hippy

 

[MichaelMouse]

No amount of glue would have fixed that fault in the wood to keep it from separating. Even if you chased it with thin glue, then filled with thick or medium, and let it sit for a couple of days for it to totally cure.

As you saw when he displayed the two pieces, it was bark through and through. That would probably have been apparent to all but him if he had shown the bowl at rest. With the piece rotating, you could see dark hints.

I have to say that filling the gap would have been risky. OTOH, had he used a recess, he'd have had a half inch of good wood at the bottom to help him get through the green turn to the epoxy fill cured wood stage. Might have made it.

Much as I hate to admit it, there have been times when I glued a pocket and wrapped duct tape around the outside to pull one through. Mostly burl. But I knew the risk, so I would have no one to blame but my wife if I had an accident ....

 

[hockenbery]

There's ALWAYS a bark pocket at a branch root. If he was not packing and gluing all along, he was asking for a flyoff. He also mentioned "rot," consistent with what looks to be a whitish streak under the wax, another risk..

It looks like bark inclusion to me to. These often occur in crotches. Bark inclusions mean the wood is held together by air and bark.
Sometimes water pockets form in the inclusion creating rot.
Bark inclusion often show themselves with a sort of stitch pattern bumpy line where the two sides of the crotch meet.

It is not safe to turn a bowl from wood that isn't connected. A gallon of ca won't make a bark inclusion safe.

There are lots of crotch pieces that don't have bark inclusions

I always inspect for bark inclusions and ring shakes. With both of these the wood can just come apart not worth the chance.

Bark inclusion also show up a lot on burls. I've done lots of hollow forms from these where I had solid wood to put on a faceplate.

work safe
Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

Not sure what you mean Bill.He starts the lathe by reaching beyond tool rest towards the head stock to turn the switch on. Gretch

Well, I didn't mean anything other than asking to clarify the comment. It seemed like there was something unspoken (unwritten?) that you were thinking, but it didn't register in my head.

I see that in a later post, Odie stated that he has modified his lathe with a START-STOP switch at the tailstock. That sounds like a good idea for several reasons: convenience, avoids getting too close to the wood while it is spinning, etc. There is something else that just popped into my mind -- even with a remote START-STOP switch, the speed control is still on the headstock. A remote switch can be installed in series with the one on the headstock, but a second speed control potentiometer can't be installed without additional circuitry to select which controls are to be used.

.... As you say, it very well could have contributed to his catch.

I'm pretty sure that there was not a catch.

After thinking about the comments from the Hippy. I agree with what he said, especially the last paragraph. When you see disaster unfolding before you (not that you actually can see it), it is already too late to stop the lathe. Within the bounds of a little common sense, reaching across the lathe to stop it is not unsafe -- outside the bounds would include invisible things like the handle of a ladle.

 

[Gretch Flo]

swing arm

Howdy Gretch.......

"I believe you have a Oneway 1640 with that "swing-arm" start/stop switch. I've had some thoughts on that, but have never actually used one. To my way of thinking, it seems like a switch-box that is not in the same location every time, might introduce a new set of safety considerations. If it's not consistently in the same location, it seems like this could be a disadvantage when a turner needs to hit the stop button under an emergency situation.........thoughts on that?"



ooc

Odie-I have the swing arm with the controls, and it usually is in the same place-rarely move it. I know exactly where the red Panic knob is. Never had to use it but have inadvertently hit it I guess, as the lathe stopped and wouldn't "start". (you have to turn off the power, pull out the knob, wait 30 sec, turn on the power, then hit the start button). Gretch

 

[MichaelMouse]

There are lots of crotch pieces that don't have bark inclusions

Can't remember any that didn't, just some that didn't have as much as others. Still, with a predicable location, it's up to the turner to determine extent. Self-pruning trees like conifers drop branches when small, and close to the growing surface. They cover quickly with minimum inclusion. Deciduous trees, especially those with larger, nearly vertical branches are the biggest offenders. Main stem grows out and surrounds the branch growing round and expanding toward the main stem. Traps the bark in-between. Sometimes it's not a limb at all that's overgrown. http://hungrytrees.com/

Of course those who make wood for winter burning exploit this weakness over and over. They also avoid trying to kick the more perpendicular limbs in the crotch. Back to center splits there.

 

[dbonertz]

(There is something else that just popped into my mind -- even with a remote START-STOP switch, the speed control is still on the headstock. A remote switch can be installed in series with the one on the headstock, but a second speed control potentiometer can't be installed without additional circuitry to select which controls are to be used.)

Bill,

I can't speak for the powermatic but when I wired my vicmark 300.vl remote box I abandoned the speed control towards the headstock. I removed it from the front and attached a longer wire and put it into the remote box. On my lathe you need to tap the wires where the other controls are anyway. I used a six or eight (can't remember) strand line. I now have the start, stop, forward/reverse and speed control in a remote box that can be moved anywhere on the lathe. Since doing this I don't even use the start/stop at the headstock anymore even though they are still functional. I core a lot with the McNaughton tool and it sure helps to be able to have one finger on the stop button and two fingers on the speed control when coring. Just a thought to look into when wiring a remote box on the powermatic.

Dale

 

[odie]

Well, I didn't mean anything other than asking to clarify the comment. It seemed like there was something unspoken (unwritten?) that you were thinking, but it didn't register in my head.

I see that in a later post, Odie stated that he has modified his lathe with a START-STOP switch at the tailstock. That sounds like a good idea for several reasons: convenience, avoids getting too close to the wood while it is spinning, etc. There is something else that just popped into my mind -- even with a remote START-STOP switch, the speed control is still on the headstock. A remote switch can be installed in series with the one on the headstock, but a second speed control potentiometer can't be installed without additional circuitry to select which controls are to be used.



I'm pretty sure that there was not a catch.

After thinking about the comments from the Hippy. I agree with what he said, especially the last paragraph. When you see disaster unfolding before you (not that you actually can see it), it is already too late to stop the lathe. Within the bounds of a little common sense, reaching across the lathe to stop it is not unsafe -- outside the bounds would include invisible things like the handle of a ladle.

Hi Bill.......

I was guessing about the catch.......might not have been one, but since it appeared he had his gouge angled downward slightly from the rest, that possibility seemed likely.

Robo had a good post, but would he have concluded the same......if, he had not had the benefit of "20-20 hind sight"? In mounting that piece of wood in the video, it was obviously a mistake, but (from my point of view) the evidence beforehand didn't really have the "red flags" he saw, after the fact. I've mounted plenty of flawed wood, and have rejected a few.......but, at best, there is some amount of speculation as to the safety of any particular piece of wood. One just never knows for sure what's inside a piece of wood.......realistically, he can only make a guess, and I'm sure all of us has found the interior to be completely different than originally anticipated........

ooc

 

[hockenbery]

Here is what I look for in crotch wood the bark on the outside fairly smooth.
A line that looks like stitching will indicate a bark inclusion.
The crotch in the photos has not bark inclusion. It does have lots of check because it been sitting in my shop for 8 months drying out.
Ideally it should have been turned 7.9 months ago.

MM,
now you have seen a crotch without bark inclusions. Maybe where you live all the crotches have bark inclusions.
It has been my experience in Maryland and Florida. That the majority of crotches don't have bark inclusions.

I have seen some particular trees where every crotch in the tree has inclusion.

Work safe

 

[robo hippy]

There is crotch wood, and there is crotch wood. I had a piece of black walnut, big crotch with branches 24 inches coming into a trunk 30 plus inch diameter. No feathering at all, but nice compression wood under where the branches came into a tree. I have had crotch pieces with the branches coming together with nothing but a bark inclusion all the way through, and no feather. I have had pieces of crotch wood with small bark inclusions and lots of feather. I have had crotch pieces with no bark inclusions. I haven't noticed that it has anything to do with species, some are different.

Odie, the piece shown had the crack all the way through to the top surface of the bowl. It was in plain sight if you know what to look for, and I would be willing to bet that after he cut the circle, it was highly visible. Again, you have to know what to look for.

I viewed the video again, and the fault is highly visible to me before the piece blows up. The black line is an indicator of rot, and/or bark inclusions. It is on top of the blank, and down more than half of the side. It looks like it blows up without a catch.

As to placement of the remote on/off switch, I will keep mine on the headstock. Habit from 8 years on the 3520A, and now with my Robust. If it was on an arm like the Oneway, I would have to move the tool I was using to my left hand, and then turn it off with my right. Don't have to do that if I use my left hand for that reason. I don't have it on the tailstock or banjo because it is in the way. I don't have it on the bed because it is too far to bend down (one down side to a 25 inch throw lathe). Fine where it is.

robo hippy

 

[Bill Boehme]

... Fine where it is.

robo hippy

You mean that Brent went to all that trouble of putting the controls in a magnetic box for nothing.

Actually, I have mine on the headstock most of the time, too. Sometimes if I am working at the south end of the lathe doing a hollow form, I'll move the control box down there so that I don't have to keep stumbling back and forth and tripping over the shop vac and hose and other miscellaneous tenured stuff.

 

[hockenbery]

.

Odie, the piece shown had the crack all the way through to the top surface of the bowl. It was in plain sight if you know what to look for, and I would be willing to bet that after he cut the circle, it was highly visible. Again, you have to know what to look for.

I viewed the video again, and the fault is highly visible to me before the piece blows up. The black line is an indicator of rot, and/or bark inclusions. It is on top of the blank, and down more than half of the side. It looks like it blows up without a catch.

robo hippy

One risky blank. The result should have been expected. Obvious to you, me, and other experience turners.

The guy in the video didn't have anyone educate him about the danger of ring shakes and bark inclusions?
I tried to cover that in every basic bowl turning class.

There seems to be trend for fairly inexperienced turners to buy big powerful machines and turn big pieces of wood at too fast a speed.
It is a dangerous combination.

Work safe,
Al

 

[MichaelMouse]

MM,
now you have seen a crotch without bark inclusions. Maybe where you live all the crotches have bark inclusions.

That looks a spread trunk, like in open grown trees. I've been working with forest-grown types for so long, I forget they exist. In the woods they're reaching for the sky as they compete for light. I'll take a peek at a multiple-trunk cherry that's in trouble out a quarter mile SW of the house. Should be the same pattern, I would think. Split trunk.

Did a couple face cords of hard maple before lunch, and even the completely overgrown branches revealed some encapsulated bark.

 

[Betty Scarpino]

There seems to be trend for fairly inexperienced turners to buy big powerful machines and turn big pieces of wood at too fast a speed.
Al

And then to produce a video to show others how cool it is to turn wood ....

Before teaching someone else woodturning, serious consideration should be given to including safety in every lesson, especially a video that will be seen by countless beginners.

And beyond that, I guess I just don't understand the make-a-video-of-woodturning-thing-and-post-it-on-YouTube.

Betty Scarpino, editor, AW

 

[Rob Wallace]

And beyond that, I guess I just don't understand the make-a-video-of-woodturning-thing-and-post-it-on-YouTube.

Not that they should, but simply that they can......

More and more woodturning videos on youtube are becoming lessons in what NOT to do....

....they never get past a beginner's stage (and don't know it), but think they should be recording and sharing their expertise for the rest of the World.

Perhaps it is a form of "Raffan Envy"?? So many have learned turning from his videos, and because the technology allows them to, they want to "show how much they know" (or not...??)

I now tell new turners to be very careful about not emulating ANYTHING they see on youtube as far as turning technique goes.

Rob

 

[Gretch Flo]

relying on utube

Not that they should, but simply that they can......

More and more woodturning videos on youtube are becoming lessons in what NOT to do....

....they never get past a beginner's stage (and don't know it), but think they should be recording and sharing their expertise for the rest of the World.

Perhaps it is a form of "Raffan Envy"?? So many have learned turning from his videos, and because the technology allows them to, they want to "show how much they know" (or not...??)

I now tell new turners to be very careful about not emulating ANYTHING they see on youtube as far as turning technique goes.

Rob

Rob=you mean utube and Google isn't the gospel?????? Gretch

 

[Gretch Flo]

michael=I do alot of nat edge and crotch figure/ Alot of maple has bark, but some DON'T. I have turned quite a few kinds of wood where there SEEMs to be NO bark . I have yet to find a white mulberry crotch WITHOUT bark.Can't be dogmatic, or it'll catch you in the beehind!!!!! Gretch

 

[hockenbery]

And then to produce a video to show others how cool it is to turn wood ....

Before teaching someone else woodturning, serious consideration should be given to including safety in every lesson, especially a video that will be seen by countless beginners.
st
And beyond that, I guess I just don't understand the make-a-video-of-woodturning-thing-and-post-it-on-YouTube.

Betty Scarpino, editor, AW

Betty, Rob, et al

The English have a registry of professional turners. There is a process to get listed Including a couple of current member certifying your abilities. Jimmy Clewes explained some of it to me 10-12 years ago. But being listed says you can be trusted as and instructor to give proper instructions.

http://www.rpturners.co.uk/ Select "turners" you see a lot of familiar names

I've thought from time to time that AAW/POP might establish something similar. It wouldn't stop bad teaching but would give students a list of "certified instructors" .
I never thought it was needed here but I'm beginning to re think that.

A person doesn't have the be a master turner to be a good teacher just competent. Mentoring at the club level is one of the strengths of the AAW. The local clubs have processes for assigning mentors and picking instructors for workshops and help sessions

I once had the pleasure of watching an 11 year old student pick up our gouge model and explain to his 8 year old brother how the tool cut and how it should be presented to the wood and rolled into the cut.

Al

 

[odie]

Betty, Rob, et al

The English have a registry of professional turners. There is a process to get listed Including a couple of current member certifying your abilities. Jimmy Clewes explained some of it to me 10-12 years ago. But being listed says you can be trusted as and instructor to give proper instructions.

http://www.rpturners.co.uk/ Select "turners" you see a lot of familiar names

I've thought from time to time that AAW/POP might establish something similar. It wouldn't stop bad teaching but would give students a list of "certified instructors" .
I never thought it was needed here but I'm beginning to re think that.

A person doesn't have the be a master turner to be a good teacher just competent. Mentoring at the club level is one of the strengths of the AAW. The local clubs have processes for assigning mentors and picking instructors for workshops and help sessions

I once had the pleasure of watching an 11 year old student pick up our gouge model and explain to his 8 year old brother how the tool cut and how it should be presented to the wood and rolled into the cut.

Al

God bless the English, but to establish such a system here would only introduce personal politics and beliefs into the mix. It would be used to establish a formal way of learning, while stifling individual creative instinct. To make an example: Take the violin.......If all those who wanted to learn this instrument went to "established and approved" instructors, the fiddle probably wouldn't exist! Such a system would also be used to prevent some qualified turners from achieving certification, not on the basis of their abilities.......but, social standards that are completely arbitrary and established to promote the interests of those in the group.

There is a definite problem, and Betty hit on it........it's very easy to produce a poorly conceived video, and have that influence new turners in a way that could be a safety risk. I honestly don't see how that problem can be addressed effectively......these people can't be deprived of their desire to produce the videos.

There are many books and videos on woodturning that are commercially produced. I've seen some of them, and I've never seen information I've thought was inappropriate on a safety issue. Obviously, turning is something that is dangerous. Safety isn't guaranteed, but the possibilities of having an accident can be reduced. These turners who have produced commercial training aids are, from my observation, qualified to produce them.......no, certification needed here.......

ooc

 

[MichaelMouse]

michael=I do alot of nat edge and crotch figure/ Alot of maple has bark, but some DON'T. I have turned quite a few kinds of wood where there SEEMs to be NO bark . I have yet to find a white mulberry crotch WITHOUT bark.Can't be dogmatic, or it'll catch you in the beehind!!!!! Gretch

If you assume the worst case always, you may get bit, but not hit.

I'll use my own grin on that.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n28/MichaelMouse/BigSmile.jpg

 

[MichaelMouse]

Before teaching someone else woodturning, serious consideration should be given to including safety in every lesson, especially a video that will be seen by countless beginners.

And beyond that, I guess I just don't understand the make-a-video-of-woodturning-thing-and-post-it-on-YouTube.

Problem with that is every innovation was once technique unrecognized by the experts and certified teachers. OD has hit it right on the head - the party line will come to determine even what those who should know better will present to those who know nothing.

In some cases it's not innovation but anachronism which some try to stifle by saying that a tool might be misused to failure or harm the turner.

As to home video, I guess there's always the thrill of discovery and accomplishment even when results are obtained by instead of resulting in an accident. Might as well show it!

 

[Betty Scarpino]

Problem with that is every innovation was once technique unrecognized by the experts and certified teachers. OD has hit it right on the head - the party line will come to determine even what those who should know better will present to those who know nothing.

In some cases it's not innovation but anachronism which some try to stifle by saying that a tool might be misused to failure or harm the turner.

As to home video, I guess there's always the thrill of discovery and accomplishment even when results are obtained by instead of resulting in an accident. Might as well show it!

I don't have a problem with showing this video after the accident to help others learn of potential dangers. It obviously ended up being instructive, but his conclusion to the accident: "I should have had my (lathe) guard down, but at least I was wearing a faceshield" misses the point. Guards and faceshields are the last line of defense. The wood was the initial problem, he knew it, and he continued the process of producing a professional video, using dangerous wood, that would be seen by beginners.

Yes, MM, this turner's disclosure "the rot might be a problem" seemingly covered his butt, however, it's not good enough in my book when making a video for public consumption. If the "accident" had not happened, less knowledgeable turners who watched would internalize the fact that it's okay to turn crotch wood. It would have been irresponsible to publicly post the video as he intended it to be, but instructive to post the actual outcome.

Betty Scarpino, editor, AW

 

[Thomas Stegall]

Hopefully, those who see it view it more as entertainment or an example of what not to do. The fact that he had a disaster should be an indication to anyone that his example is not of instructional value.

Keeping an on/off switch in a location that does not require you to step into the line of fire to turn the lathe off is of great value. Far more practical in use than those cages of which I have never seen anyone ever use one.

The other problem with a formalized process of recognizing instructors is that there is a huge difference between knowing how to turn and knowing how to teach turning. The process of determining this would be highly subjective. I have seen a few of our more experienced turners work, and I don't want to be anywhere near their lathe if they are turning anything bigger than a bottle stopper.

One example comes to mind; I was one of several club members helping teach at a woodcraft store. I would explain the process, make a cut to demonstrate and then hand the tool to the student and they would turn the honey dipper or pen. As I did this with one customer/student after another I noticed another well seasoned turner and prominent club member providing instuction and then working with the student, but his method led to him doing 95 percent of the turning and the student barely touched the wood. After working with one student, their spouse finished working with this other instructor. The couple came together at the lathe I was working at and and compared their turnings, the spouse said with a degree of irritation to my student "Honey look what HE turned." At the time I had been turning only a year. I wasn't a great turner, but I understood the fundamentals and more importantly I understood how to teach. Meanwhile this other turner had been turning for 10+ years, but was and continues to be a poor instructor. He is convinced that he is an excellent instructor and no will tell him differently.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Keeping an on/off switch in a location that does not require you to step into the line of fire to turn the lathe off is of great value. Far more practical in use than those cages of which I have never seen anyone ever use one..

Why is everyone so concerned about turning the lathe OFF? If you're out of the line of fire, let it fling. Locating the turner in the throw zone when turning the power ON is what bothers me. Used to penalize the kids at school for that, though the penalty was higher if they turned the lathe (or TS or Shaper ...) on with someone else in the throw zone.

 

[robo hippy]

The problem I have with instructing is trying to anticipate the ignorant things beginners will attempt. They just don't know better and do it any way, when it is obvious to me. Kind of like the saying, "You can never make some thing that is idiot proof, because as soon as you do, some one else invents a better idiot." I would never want more than 2 beginning students at one time. Makes my sphincters pucker just thinking about it.

robo hippy

 

[Brian McInturff]

The main reason about the off/on switch in this instance is he is on the tail stock end after the incident. The lathe is jumping around now with a large out of balance blank still spinning. He has to go back in the line of fire to turn the lathe off. Could've been yet another disaster if the rest of the blank had flung off.

 

[Edward Weber]

I’ll start off with my disclaimer.
These comments are my own only and in no way are intended to offend anyone. I am only trying, like others, to point out how to avoid this happening to anyone else.

As others have mentioned, it’s very hard to tell the integrity of this blank from what is shown in the video. We also don’t get to see how it got from a rough blank to a rough bowl, just before separation. You would have to guess that there were some “red flags†that popped up whether it was band sawed or turned the entire way. The look, the feel the sound and even the smell should have indicated something.
At the start of the video, he indicates the rot and seems to realize the potential challenge. It looks like it’s mounted with a large spur center, I’m not sure, but why he didn’t use a faceplate to mount it is beyond me. The area where it’s mounted seems to be at the center of where he pointed out the rot was.
As far as the safety concerns, there are many problems; I’ll start with the work area.
First off, if you’re going to use your birdcage guard, use it; don’t turn it into a shelf. He has taken a safety device and made it more dangerous by using it improperly. Secondly his light cord and the cord from the tool on the “safety cage†are running down through the work area. It wouldn’t take much for something to vibrate off the “shelf†and fall into a spinning piece, especially when turning an unbalanced blank. As far as the turning speed goes, I don’t think there is a way to tell exactly, except to say too fast. I say this because a section of wet wood described by the turner as heavy was lifted up enough to hit him in the head. The lathe speed was most likely a product of vibration, meaning this was the speed where the vibration smoothed out.
There are many things that contributed to this event and we may never know them all. I want to thank the turner for posting his video as I think it can be a good learning tool.
Turn Safely.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I am with MM on the perceived need to turn the lathe off by using the START-STOP switch after part of a turning has separated and the remainder is still spinning around. There are other options. One is to go to the sub-panel if that is what your shop has and shut off the power to the lathe. Another is to go to the service entrance panel and shut off power (which might irritate other members of the household). If the lathe plug is accessible without getting in an unsafe position then pull the plug. Finally, you can go in the house, change clothes, and return a while later to see how things are going. If it has not shook itself apart by then and if you are feeling even moderately lucky, hit the stop button. By this time, if you are still feeling rattled, go get the proverbial ten foot pole and poke the stop button.

 

[John Lawson]

Or crawl under the ways and reach up for the stop button, or (if he really was using a spur center) back off the tailstock from the end of the lathe and let 'er rip! The only reason we are talking about the stop button at all is because when he got clocked he fell toward the tailstock. Maybe three inches different and he'd have been knocked toward the headstock, and this wouldn't be a topic of conversation.