Woodturning Project: Green Apricot Bowl Disaster

[Bill Boehme]

Or crawl under the ways and reach up for the stop button, or (if he really was using a spur center) back off the tailstock from the end of the lathe and let 'er rip! The only reason we are talking about the stop button at all is because when he got clocked he fell toward the tailstock. Maybe three inches different and he'd have been knocked toward the headstock, and this wouldn't be a topic of conversation.

I have a hunch that Alan Stratton will be turning less "challenging" pieces of wood in the future. He might not realize how fortunate he was that the worst that happened was a cut and bruise and his bell had only been mildly rung. It is good that he was wearing a face shield, but he gave it too much credit for minimizing injury from impact. It may well have saved his vision and more lacerations than the one on his forehead, but it has very little capacity to absorb the energy from a mass of the size that hit him.

 

[dbonertz]

I can't believe what I'm reading here. On one hand you all are talking about safety and his lack of practicing a few steps and on the other hand your saying having a stop button on the tail stock end is unnecessary. When wiring a remote box with a start/stop that does not mean you have to abandon the head stock start/stop. Isn't it better for safety to have more options to stop the lathe, the quickest and easiest, so something worse doesn't come of the situation.

As far as the face shield it looks to me that it did its job quite well. It may not be the best on the market but I'll wager anyone that his face would be quite tore up had he not had it on. Let's not nitpick this guy to death but rather take from the video some positives like what to look for in a blank. Also say thank god he showed safety practices in wearing a face shield.

Sorry for the rant. I'll go take a cold shower now to cool down.

 

[MichaelMouse]

I can't believe what I'm reading here. On one hand you all are talking about safety and his lack of practicing a few steps and on the other hand your saying having a stop button on the tail stock end is unnecessary.

It is an excellent idea, and I don't see a post about it being unnecessary. I believe it's more important for the ability to turn the lathe on while standing out of the "zone" than turning off, however. Worrying about the door after the horse has fled if you flung. You have a stick of wood to hit the switch, access to the plug or breaker, and perhaps something all with children who reside or visit should have - a shop equipment kill switch to protect those kids from their own curiosity.

I know my switch is in a remote box far enough that I have to take an extra half step away from the headstock to initialize. Deliberately so.

You think this might be a bit to challenging? It does have a little spalt on the branch ....

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n28/MichaelMouse/LongShot.jpg

 

[hockenbery]

I can't believe what I'm reading here. On one hand you all are talking about safety and his lack of practicing a few steps and on the other hand your saying having a stop button on the tail stock end is unnecessary. When wiring a remote box with a start/stop that does not mean you have to abandon the head stock start/stop. Isn't it better for safety to have more options to stop the lathe, the quickest and easiest, so something worse doesn't come of the situation.

As far as the face shield it looks to me that it did its job quite well. It may not be the best on the market but I'll wager anyone that his face would be quite tore up had he not had it on. Let's not nitpick this guy to death but rather take from the video some positives like what to look for in a blank. Also say thank god he showed safety practices in wearing a face shield.

Sorry for the rant. I'll go take a cold shower now to cool down.

I certainly have remote switches on the lathes we use.
The face shield prevented cuts and lacerations.
The face shield provides minimal protection against Brain trauma when hit with a mass of wood that size

Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

I can't believe what I'm reading here. On one hand you all are talking about safety and his lack of practicing a few steps and on the other hand your saying having a stop button on the tail stock end is unnecessary. When wiring a remote box with a start/stop that does not mean you have to abandon the head stock start/stop. Isn't it better for safety to have more options to stop the lathe, the quickest and easiest, so something worse doesn't come of the situation.

As far as the face shield it looks to me that it did its job quite well. It may not be the best on the market but I'll wager anyone that his face would be quite tore up had he not had it on. Let's not nitpick this guy to death but rather take from the video some positives like what to look for in a blank. Also say thank god he showed safety practices in wearing a face shield.

Sorry for the rant. I'll go take a cold shower now to cool down.

You must be reading a different thread. I hope your cold sower helps.

I haven't read any posts in this thread about a switch at the tailstock end being "unnecessary" (nor has anybody said it isn't nice to have or convenient, safety feature, etc). As I interpret what others have said and what I said is that it doesn't make sense to reach for the headstock switch to shut it down after an incident like the one in the video IF it means putting yourself at risk. As I mentioned, there are safer ways to accomplish the end result.

I'm sorry to read that you have unrealistic expectations of your faceshield. Read the safety instructions that come with any ANSI rated face shield. They make it clear that they are for eye and face protection against small particles and specifically state that they do not provide protection against impacts from large objects. I'll add that they also don't "deflect" large objects as Mr. Stratton mistakenly assumed. The deflection comes after the shield and object makes contact with your face whereupon all three get to participate in the deflection. The fact that the face shield went flying and that there was a cut on has forehead should at least hint at that.

 

[dbonertz]

Three Quotes:

As to placement of the remote on/off switch, I will keep mine on the headstock. Habit from 8 years on the 3520A, and now with my Robust. If it was on an arm like the Oneway, I would have to move the tool I was using to my left hand, and then turn it off with my right. Don't have to do that if I use my left hand for that reason. I don't have it on the tailstock or banjo because it is in the way. I don't have it on the bed because it is too far to bend down (one down side to a 25 inch throw lathe). Fine where it is.

I am with MM on the perceived need to turn the lathe off by using the START-STOP switch after part of a turning has separated and the remainder is still spinning around. There are other options. One is to go to the sub-panel if that is what your shop has and shut off the power to the lathe. Another is to go to the service entrance panel and shut off power (which might irritate other members of the household). If the lathe plug is accessible without getting in an unsafe position then pull the plug. Finally, you can go in the house, change clothes, and return a while later to see how things are going. If it has not shook itself apart by then and if you are feeling even moderately lucky, hit the stop button. By this time, if you are still feeling rattled, go get the proverbial ten foot pole and poke the stop button.

Or crawl under the ways and reach up for the stop button, or (if he really was using a spur center) back off the tailstock from the end of the lathe and let 'er rip! The only reason we are talking about the stop button at all is because when he got clocked he fell toward the tailstock. Maybe three inches different and he'd have been knocked toward the headstock, and this wouldn't be a topic of conversation.

=========================================================

Sounds as though your hinting that a remote switch is unnecessary. Your alternative methods are assuming your not injured enough to execute them. Maybe a better idea is to have a remote switch in place so you can start your lathe out of the line of fire and to stop it without reaching across the lathe in the event something goes wrong or has gone wrong. Yes I have a remote switch and use it most of the time - very convenient. As far as the face shield I never said I have total faith in them. I said thank god he was wearing one or things could have been much worse. I mentioned he did not have the best on the market. My bionic face shield that I wear all the time does have an impact rating. It still is not going to stop head trauma but honestly you can wear a football helmet and it won't stop it either - just ask the players with multiple concussions. Best method is to stand clear of the line of fire but I don't care who you are there are shorts periods in your turning that puts you into the line of fire if not part of you. A face shield may be the one thing that keeps you from a broken facial bone, torn skin or etc. versus a little nick like you see this guy ended up with.

Dale

 

[Brian McInturff]

My Stubby has an emergency stop switch I keep on the headstock end. I also have the remote controls I place where ever is convenient for me. If I'm working on the headstock end primarily then it,s mounted there. If I'm working primarily on the tail stock end then it gets placed there. It appeared that he was working primarily from the tail stock end by how he was standing.
I'm really not sure how he didn't notice the "sound" and the slight vibration that would've occurred as he got it down close to form, prior to it exploding apart. There was obviously very little holding it together and there would've been signs to that.

But we have probably all turned pieces where we knew there would be "air" developing from voids. Maybe he heard and felt the signs but thought there was enough to hold it together.

I think speed was his second biggest mistake. I learned early on when I was turning a very pinky hackberry bowl that speed itself can cause a piece to explode. I tend to turn at slower speeds. Just keep my tools sharp and the speed doesn't have to be that high. Also I keep the tool rest close and above center so that if something does happen it forces the piece away from me. Obviously that doesn't always work but probably would have prevented the accident.

 

[Bill Boehme]

OK, Dale, I'll try to explain. Nobody has said unnecessary other than you. I wasn't even hinting at it. I have a Robust AB and I sometimes place the magnetic control box at the tailstock end of the lathe as I stated earlier. Since you decided that I and others mean "unnecessary", does that mean that a lathe must have a switch at the tailstock end before it can be operated? Or operated safely? Very few lathes offer any sort of factory option for shutting off the lathe at the tailstock end, so what does that imply? There is a big difference between "necessary" and "it sure makes good common horse sense from a safety and convenience point of view". I suspect that is really what you meant rather than implying "necessary".

The part of my post that you quoted had to do with the situation as it existed in the video where there was no auxiliary stop switch. The lathe was spinning an unbalanced hunk of flawed wood and possibly doing a bit of "walking". Sooner or later the lathe needed to be turned off, but once out of the danger zone why tempt fate twice when there are other safer options as I mentioned. It was obviously too late for Mr. Statton to think about retrofitting a remote switch for the situation at hand -- a good project before "next time" to avoid future remorse, but not for the present.

As I previously stated, having a switch that can be placed at the tailstock is a very nice feature. Not only does it add to convenience, but it also enables one to turn off power to the lathe when it might be unsafe to do so by reaching across the line of fire of a potential spinning disaster.

A few months ago I helped a friend with the installation of a remote switch for his Powermatic 3520B. We both thought that it was a good idea for all the reasons that I have mentioned.

A face shield should not be mentioned in the same sentence as a football helmet other than to illustrate contrasts, but even then they are completely different pieces of safety gear intended for completely different purposes. Read the safety information on your face shield again -- the impact rating is for eye protection. Unless your face shield is more than about three years old, you will also read that the face shield safety instructions say that it should not be used alone to provide eye protection and that safety goggles must also be worn.

 

[dbonertz]

Bill,

Thank you for clarifying what you were trying to say in your earlier posts. I accept that.

I don't need to read the specs again since I did when I researched and then purchased my face shield. I said my face shield has A impact rating. I chose that word carefully since I don't for one minute think any face or head protection is going to be completely enough to withstand a 10, 20, 30 or plus pound wood missile coming at you. I do however feel that a impact rated face shield will out perform one that does not have a rating. In addition, I feel the first line of defense is standing out of the line of fire and as an important second line of defense is a face shield. The football helmet is to illustrate that nothing will completely protect you unless maybe you wear a suit of armor (I don't want to be the one to test that either). I said this guys face shield did its job quite well for him (under this circumstance). I have been wood working professionally for over thirty years and have worked with all types of equipment form hand tools to industrial inline and double end moulders and most everything in between. I have seen even the cheapest face shields, over the years, save peoples faces from dis-figuration from flying objects, splatters and etc. Not that I recommend the cheap face shields but they are better than nothing. Do I believe in face shields - you bet I do.

Dale

 

[hockenbery]

Bill, Dale,

I think we all agree on on basic concepts

Face Sheilds are great protection against pieces of bark, small corner of a piece being roughed, shavings...
Face shields provide some level of protection against large objects.
What no face shield or football helmet protects against is the brain trauma cause by the brain bouncing around inside the skull when the head takes a big hit.

A direct hit from a large block of wood has and will cause brain trauma in the worst cases fatalities occur.

Best protection is an "alert mind"
Inspect blanks for cracks, ring shakes, bark inclusions.... The are all situations where the wood is not connected across the deafects.
Rot or extremely pinky wood is another situation where the wood is very weak.

If you are not 100% sure that a block can be turner's successfully, DON'T TURN IT.

The wood holding the piece to the lathe must be structurally sound. The whole piece must have structural integrity.
If the is pretty wood cut it off and make it into a box or ornament.

Work safe
Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

Dale, I am glad that you are no longer worried that I and possibly others are a bunch of anti-safety gear nuts.

Concussion and other brain injuries that Al mentioned may be the most serious concern, but other head injuries like broken jaws, teeth and cheekbones as well as deep lacerations are also very serious. It is not necessary to be hit with something in the vicinity of ten pounds or more before worrying about the limitation of faceshield protection. A fist-sized chunk of wood weighing a half-pound or so can cause any of those injuries despite wearing a face shield especially if the lathe is running at an inappropriately high speed. This certainly is not justification for not wearing a faceshield. Viewing the faceshield as a last line of defense is a better way to perceive its use with the understanding that it is not a substitute for primary safety practices and that it may be inadequate for anything beyond its intended purpose.

Most woodturners who I know tend to glaze over if I mention anything related to physics, but that has not deterred me in the past so I will mention it as a bit of trivia for your entertainment:

The mass of a piece of wood is important when we are evaluating its safety to be turned. However, far more important than mass is kinetic energy.

A mass at rest has no kinetic energy. When accelerated to some velocity then it contains an amount of energy equal to the amount of energy expended to accelerate it to that velocity. That velocity could be linear or rotating. For a mass moving linearly, the kinetic energy is defined as:

KE = ½ m · v²
where: KE is the kinetic energy, m is the mass, and v is the velocity
​

The important point to gather from the equation is that the kinetic energy increases as the square of the velocity. That is significant because it tells us that velocity is the dominant factor over mass in kinetic energy. Here is a simple illustration of that point: If we doubled the velocity of a moving mass, its kinetic energy would be quadrupled. On the other hand, if we wanted to quadruple the kinetic energy while keeping the velocity constant, we would need to quadruple the mass.

The kinetic energy of a rotating mass is somewhat more complex to describe because it depends on the shape and radius. However, we are mostly concerned about stuff flying off the lathe where the definition above would apply.

Now that the mass of wood on the lathe is spinning, what happens to the kinetic energy? Normally, it is dissipated gradually through friction when the lathe is turned off. If your lathe has a VFD, then dynamic braking may be used in which case the kinetic energy is either dissipated as heat in a braking resistor or the motor windings. The way that we do not want to see it dissipated is by flying off the lathe and colliding with something or someone. So the admonition "speed kills" applies to woodturning as much as it does to anything else.
​

 

[Gretch Flo]

head danger

Before I turned anything, or saw any one or video turn I studied 2 of Richard Raffan's book and Judy Dittmer's (multiple times). I believe it was Raffan (I am unsure) that said "don't chuck anything larger than what you are willing to get hit in the head with!!!!"

 

[Bill Boehme]

It sounds like Richard Raffan has the gift of distilling things down to the purest essence.

 

[Rob Wallace]

It sounds like Richard Raffan has the gift of distilling things down to the purest essence.

See post #26 in this thread.....

It might be "Raffan Envy" indeed...

Rob

 

[Thomas Stegall]

That policy by Raffan would certainly reduce my use of the chuck if put into practice! As my size preference for getting hit in the head is quite small

 

[robo hippy]

The guy in this video also had another one up where he blows up another bowl. Any one else look at it? His tool presentation made my sphincters pucker. Holding gouge level and rolling wings into the cut is an invitation for a catch, but not so if you drop the handle.

robo hippy

 

[Edward Weber]

Reed, I saw the video you are referring to, and I know what you mean about the pucker factor.
I don't want to pile on this guy, but people need to be told about some of these youtube videos. Watching poor tool control and work can be very dangerous if you don't know any better.
I have a hard time watching a full video of this nature knowing it's only gonna get worse. He is very lucky he is still able to turn.

 

[Ian Robertson]

The guy in this video also had another one up where he blows up another bowl. Any one else look at it? His tool presentation made my sphincters pucker. Holding gouge level and rolling wings into the cut is an invitation for a catch, but not so if you drop the handle.

robo hippy

He has had a few.

 

[Bill Boehme]

See post #26 in this thread.....

It might be "Raffan Envy" indeed...

Rob

I've never seen Richard Raffan although I have heard of him and other than what I read in the latest AW, know very little. I was responding to the post by Gretch (quoted below) which struck me as very humorous. Nothing else.

..... I believe it was Raffan (I am unsure) that said "don't chuck anything larger than what you are willing to get hit in the head with!!!!"

Also, I have noticed in catalogs that he like a number of other pros, has signature tools that cost a lot more than other tools.

 

[Gretch Flo]

Richard Raffan

Richard gave a week end demo in Traverse City 5-6 years ago, I also went to a hands on for 1 day -very intimidating-diff lathe, diff tools, and UGGGGHHHH the skew. I had brought 6 of Raffan's book for him to sign when at a restaurant in between. A very nice person, Gretch

 

[robo hippy]

I did get a chance to see him in San Jose, and chat a bit. I found it interesting that the techniques I have developed over the 15 or so years since I first read his book and saw a video, are very similar to his. We both use scrapers on bowls. Seems like a very nice man.

Every time I see some one doing a cut that is 'risky' I want to step in and suggest how to correct. Again it is the problem that people can do things with no hint that what they are doing is dangerous. Some times even after you explain.

robo hippy

 

[John Giem]

There are a lot of good ideas in this thread but a couple of points/ideas have not been mentioned.
Off Switch - My Vicmarc VL300 came with a 'crash bar' running the full length of the lathe at about knee height. This provides a VERY convenient way to shut off the lathe anywhere I am and it is always in the same place. I can shut down the lathe quicker with my knee than reaching for a stop switch with my hand. Yes, I do need to reach across the 'line-of-fire' to turn the lathe on. It also has a conventional stop switch next to the on switch.

Teaching and safety - this is a difficult one. If you want a student to succeed then you must also allow him the opportunity to fail. I try to protect the Student. Messing up a piece of wood can be instructive as long as no one is injured. When a student makes a mistake, we always stop, discuss it and then ask 'what did you learn?'

Here in Colorado, most of the tree crotches tend to follow the rule of thumb of looking at the angle between the two sides of the crotch. The more accute (smaller) the angle, the more likely it will contain inclusions. The wider the angle, the less likely it will contain inclusions.

John

 

[Mark Warden]

[ because it's a pain in the neck to install, and remove. .......If you have thoughts on this, why don't you tell us what your experiences with using, or not using the cage are.......)

ooc[/QUOTE]

Hi Odie I have a 3520B and the guard is permanently attached it's just a matter of pulling a spring pin and lowering it till it locks in place and same to remove. I do use it for roughing 90% of the time just in case something goes wrong and then lock it out of the way. Definitely a nice feature to have and no hassle at all to use and has never gotten in the way it is the same distance from the spindle as the bed and if your turning off the end of the lathe for larger pieces one grub screw and it slides off.

 

[Mark Warden]

There's ALWAYS a bark pocket at a branch root. Just once I would like you to admit you misspoke I would have allot more faith in your opinions.

 

[Mark Warden]

And then to produce a video to show others how cool it is to turn wood ....

Before teaching someone else woodturning, serious consideration should be given to including safety in every lesson, especially a video that will be seen by countless beginners.

And beyond that, I guess I just don't understand the make-a-video-of-woodturning-thing-and-post-it-on-YouTube.

Betty Scarpino, editor, AW

It's called sharing your hobby. And I didn't see anywhere in the video post claiming to be teaching anything.

 

[Mark Warden]

I don't have a problem with showing this video after the accident to help others learn of potential dangers. It obviously ended up being instructive, but his conclusion to the accident: "I should have had my (lathe) guard down, but at least I was wearing a faceshield" misses the point. Guards and faceshields are the last line of defense. The wood was the initial problem, he knew it, and he continued the process of producing a professional video, using dangerous wood, that would be seen by beginners.

Yes, MM, this turner's disclosure "the rot might be a problem" seemingly covered his butt, however, it's not good enough in my book when making a video for public consumption. If the "accident" had not happened, less knowledgeable turners who watched would internalize the fact that it's Kay to turn crotch wood. It would have been irresponsible to publicly post the video as he intended it to be, but instructive to post the actual outcome.

Betty Scarpino, editor, AW

Again it's not a professional video he is sharing an experience.There is a place to post comments on youtube this is where most of these posts should be to inform viewers where mistakes were made. And it is OK to turn crotch wood some of the most beautiful pieces I've seen are turned from wood that i guess allot of the posters here should not be turned.

 

[Mark Warden]

The guy in this video also had another one up where he blows up another bowl. Any one else look at it? His tool presentation made my sphincters pucker. Holding gouge level and rolling wings into the cut is an invitation for a catch, but not so if you drop the handle.

robo hippy

Did you post a reply to his video to let him know what he was doing wrong? And warn others.

 

[Mark Warden]

Read the video descriptions

His final words in his description.
"My new resolutions - Use the lathe guard on all green bowl turnings at least until I can turn the bowl around for the hollowing phase; Keep wearing my face shield no matter what; Avoid standing in line with a spinning bowl"

 

[odie]

Hi Odie I have a 3520B and the guard is permanently attached it's just a matter of pulling a spring pin and lowering it till it locks in place and same to remove. I do use it for roughing 90% of the time just in case something goes wrong and then lock it out of the way. Definitely a nice feature to have and no hassle at all to use and has never gotten in the way it is the same distance from the spindle as the bed and if your turning off the end of the lathe for larger pieces one grub screw and it slides off.

Hello Mark.......and, thanks for giving your experiences with the guard.

I don't have one, and if I did, there are times when I would definitely use it. There probably isn't any of us who uses figured and gnarly wood, that hasn't wondered if it would hold together! I don't blame the guy in the video for attempting it, but he was certainly not out of the way when it came apart......that is where a valuable lesson is to be acknowledged. Having the guard, and not using it........well, this is another lesson!

Later.......

ooc

 

[jschnell1203]

I still have mine on. Also I wrapped some tape around the corners because I getting scratched on them.