2 more deaths from fractal burning

[odie]

Odie, you're confusing governmental regulations with a private organization's internal policy. Nobody has banned fractal burning. Obviously, the AAW has no regulatory authority so you are perfectly free to electrocute yourself to your heart's content (oxymoron acknowledged). One of the primary missions of the AAW is the education of safe woodturning practices

Bill.....

True, and regardless of my ambiguous statements here:

I do believe AAW has banned fractal burning within it's official reach.....and, that is what should be addressed.

I won't be electrocuting myself anytime soon, as I have no interest in pursuing fractal burning.

AFAIC, there is no artistic value in it, and it's on the level of covering worms with paint, and let them wiggle on a canvas.

-----odie-----

 

[hockenbery]

, there is no artistic value in it, and it's on the level of covering worms with paint, and let them wiggle on a canvas.

It is fundamentally wood-burning with electricity. There is more control than you realize.

All the other wood burning techniques have some element of randomness

Lasers are the most precise then pyrography knives, branding, torching the least precise

I know a couple of guys who do this and they control the patterns making it close in accuracy to branding.

Regardless - the risks outweigh the benefits by far.

 

[Bob Sheppard]

Odie, you're confusing governmental regulations with a private organization's internal policy. Nobody has banned fractal burning. Obviously, the AAW has no regulatory authority so you are perfectly free to electrocute yourself to your heart's content (oxymoron acknowledged). One of the primary missions of the AAW is the education of safe woodturning practices

I saw a fractal burning demonstration years ago. It did look cool, but I have enough electrical knowledge to realize how dangerous it really is. I live & drive in New Jersey. I don't need to find other ways to kill myself.

 

[Bill Boehme]

AFAIC, there is no artistic value in it, and it's on the level of covering worms with paint, and let them wiggle on a canvas.

I would put fractal burning on par with the cause of my car breaking down while going to the airport many years ago. Moisture and dirt in the distributor cap resulted in the ignition high voltage burning a carbon track that shorted out the ignition spark. The carbon tracks in the distributor were about as attractive as most of the fractal burning that I have seen.

I would like to believe that I am in full control of things when I am doing pyrography, but sometimes the pen touches the wood where it shouldn’t or I get branded.

 

[Tim Tucker]

I hear the echo of wisdom from my Grandfather in my head whenever I see or hear of fractal burning...." Son...just because you CAN....doesn't mean you SHOULD..."

 

[Phil Hine]

I love the fact that we live in a country where we can make those kind of decisions on our own, I equate fractal burning with sticking a sharp piece of steel into an unbalanced 15 lb. piece of wood spinning at 700 rpm. If you know what you are doing, beautiful results are the outcome. If you don't know what you are doing, bad things happen. To each their own.

Phil

 

[Daniel Henry]

Having personal freedoms is a wonderful privilege. And the more freedom one has, the more privilege he or she should feel. However, I wear a seatbelt because it is the law BUT data supports the statement that seatbelts reduce injury and even saves lives. The components ( drives, motors, bearings, and etc.) of a wood lathe are manufactured to be within certain, standards, specifications, and regulations. There are standards and specifications for the steel used to make the gouges, chisels, scrapers, and such. At last check there are no fractal burning devices on the market that have an electrical safety rating.

Now I ask that we remember the Fire Fighters, EMTs, Paramedics, Police, and other First Responders. Should I decide to participate in fractal burning at my personal resident and as a result a fire or medical emergency occurs, the responders are now at risk due to my stupidity.

 

[Tim Tucker]

Notice you never hear of fractal burning “injuries”? Only electrocutions. But poking a sherpened piece of steel into an unbalanced piece of wood MAY lead to an injury…. And RARELY a death. Big difference between fractal burn and woodturning….

 

[Karl Loeblein]

There’s PPE and procedures for doing both turning and burning safely. Problem is too many people doing fractal burning don’t take time to learn the safe practices for working around high voltages like using the right type of high voltage gloves. Electricity it’s mostly invisible so people most don’t recognize the danger.

 

[Tim Tucker]

I...I don't know Karl...Until there is a well developed hobbyist organization that teaches, trains and insures clubs for the sake fractal burning...OR it is accepted as a formal "arts" class curricula that is taught at the college level/trade schools...I don't believe there will be a way to insure that it can be done safely by participants. I still say that we never hear of injuries with fractal burning accidents. Only deaths. I think that means something......

BTW - Will you be going to the the Symposium in Chattanooga?

 

[Karl Loeblein]

I...I don't know Karl...Until there is a well developed hobbyist organization that teaches, trains and insures clubs for the sake fractal burning...OR it is accepted as a formal "arts" class curricula that is taught at the college level/trade schools...I don't believe there will be a way to insure that it can be done safely by participants. I still say that we never hear of injuries with fractal burning accidents. Only deaths. I think that means something......

BTW - Will you be going to the the Symposium in Chattanooga?

Fully agree with warning people about the dangers involved, but many people are going to try this technique regardless of clubs banning it. Those people need to understand ways to eliminate the dangers.

If (big if) I ever decide to give this a try then here’s some of the things I’ll be doing. Wear high voltage gloves, build a system that is remotely activated to avoid holding the probes, use a deadman switch to energize circuit remotely, use a neon transformer rather than a dangerous modified microwave oven transformer, use only high-voltage wire rated for the neon transformer, work on a wooden table, and no fractal burning standing barefoot out in the rain. Last but not least, tell my spouse which breaker to switch off before coming near my body If I‘m dumb enough to ignore all the safety precautions.

Sorry I won’t be coming to the AAW symposium this year due to cost and honey do projects that are past due. Luckily I get to see a lot of great demonstrators at my club meetings.

 

[Dave Landers]

If (big if) I ever decide to give this a try then here’s some of the things I’ll be doing.

Add - always keep one hand in a pocket

 

[Kent Crowell]

Such a needless tradgedy! Please leave fractal burning on the ash heap of things we should never do!

Wisconsin couple electrocuted while using dangerous art method popular on social media

The process uses high-voltage electricity to create designs in wood and has gained popularity on social media sites.

www.cbsnews.com

Roger I agree 100 %. As a retired Industrial Arts teacher, I would never think of doing this at a school, club or at my home. It looks like the all volunteer team at SWAT2022 has a vendor who will be once again selling his "homemade neon sign Fractal Burner" in Waco.

It cannot be made safe. Not UL approved, Not UL tested. If you run it on top of your Saw Stop, it will leak enough current to throw the waste block into your blade. Extremely dangerous.

Would you trust your life to a free pair of $37 gloves to protect you from "Output voltage 10,000-volt RMS. Output current 25± mA RMS."

Exposure to only 25 milliamps applied across your chest from right arm to left arm and you may not be able to let go.

" Current and Its Effect on the Human Body https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/files/2018-12/fy07_sh-16610-07_module_1-current_effect_on_human_body.doc



The effects of electricity on the human body depend on many variables.



The strength of the current

Duration of contact

Body mass (small frames provide less resistance, large frames provide more)

Gender of the person

Moisture of the body

The path of the current

1 Milliampere	Perception level, a faint tingle
5 Milliamperes	Slight shock felt, not painful, but disturbing Average individual can let go Strong involuntary reactions to shocks in this range can lead to injuries
6-25 Milliamperes (women)	Painful shock Muscular control is lost
9-30 Milliamperes (men)	Freezing current or “let go” range
50-150 Milliamperes	Extreme pain Respiratory arrest Severe muscular contractions* Individual cannot let go Death is possible
1,000-4,300 Milliamperes	Ventricular fibrillation (the rhythmic pumping action of the heart ceases) Muscular contraction and nerve damage Death is most likely
10,000+ Milliamperes	Cardiac arrest Severe burns Probable death

*If the extensor muscles are excited by the electric shock, the person may be thrown away from the circuit.



Source: W.B. Kouwenhoven, “Human Safety and Electric Shock,” Electrical Safety Practices, Monograph 112, Instrument Society of America, p. 93. (Papers delivered at the third presentation of the Electrical Safety Course in Wilmington, DE in November 1968.) "

 

[Kent Crowell]

The 20 clubs in the south central US held their Southwest Association of Woodturners convention/symosium recently in Waco Texas. The promoters will let anyone sell anything as long as you pay your vendor fee. The vendor chair is an AAW member but has the view that adults should be able to be as irresponsible as they want with no concern about the next person or buiyer. His club does not have D & O insurance for his board. HIs club's website and newsletters are full of images of board members playing around with Fractal Burning. One guy from Oklahoma will sell you his homemade - not UL approved device for $349 - $389. Basically a small transformer $39.99 and some accessories. I am sure he likes his 500% markup. For your safety he would throw in a pair of free gloves at the trade show. Safety warnings are missing.

When we get our AAW election results, join me in asking the new board to add a rule for the Chapter Best Newsletter and Chapter Best Websites providing disqualification for specifically promoting Fractal Burning with images, videos, ads, in any media. https://www.woodturner.org/Woodturn...spx?hkey=2064d96f-de06-4c5a-b80f-f536f38a0fce

 

[hughie]

I find this thread interesting as it demonstrates something I became ware of more than 20+ years ago. That many enter who into the woody world do so with little or no background industry experience or be it like same experience. Now this is not necessarily bad thing, in fact I see it as a good thing, new skills are learnt, horizons are broadened and that's got to be good for society in general. I think the idea to not out run the vision is valid but for many I would question do they actually have a vision? As I was growing up one expression I heard a lot of was 'use your common sense' usually after I made some stupid mistake. But at the same time the speaker would take me a side and explain where it had gone wrong. This sentiment was woven into everyday life including my schooling, so I grew with this thing called 'common sense'. A thing that caused me to be wary of what I didnt understand and curious enough to ask further about it. But it also gave me confidence in what I did know and allowed me to try what I didn't. But some how we have lost it and now a little knowledge is a signal to go full steam a head into an area of uncertain outcomes with little or no appreciation of the dangers.
Life sure has changed

 

[Michael Brown]

Bill.....

True, and regardless of my ambiguous statements here:

I do believe AAW has banned fractal burning within it's official reach.....and, that is what should be addressed.

I won't be electrocuting myself anytime soon, as I have no interest in pursuing fractal burning.

AFAIC, there is no artistic value in it, and it's on the level of covering worms with paint, and let them wiggle on a canvas.

-----odie-----

IMHO, watching the worms on the canvas at 5x speed would likely be more interesting than the resulting 'art'

 

[Richard Kuivila]

I agree but the difference with woodworkers is they are not using commercial products... these accidents are all (as far as know) from home made devices.

You only get ONE "Oops,,,"
One hand to the other goes right thru the heart. Many other body paths are just as deadly !

 

[Richard Kuivila]

The problem with this process, with them using microwave transformers there is no safe way to do it. The circuit in a microwave transformer when you get a dead short or are getting electrocuted the breaker never knows it. It just thinks the circuit is under normal load and will keep cooking the person If he/she becomes part of the circuit. Simplified drawing but if the left side of the circuit gets grounded out then breaker will trip. But the live right side of circuit how the transformers are wired the breaker does not know it is grounded out or electrifying anything. The breaker will not trip, left side 120 volts right side 2200 volts.

It ain't the hardware. It's the voltage level and the conduction paths thru the body.
Neon sign transformers aren't ANY SAFER !

 

[Richard Kuivila]

IMHO, watching the worms on the canvas at 5x speed would likely be more interesting than the resulting 'art'

Felt tip marking pens have a MUCH lower voltage !
(might be safer... ?) [p.s. where can I get some "IMHO" ?]

 

[Michael Edelman]

It’s the current that kills. Many years ago I was taught that it takes only 20ma to put the heart in fibrillation. With the 4,000 volts from a microwave oven transformer, you can pull 20ma through 200,000 ohms. In other words, you don’t have to touch the electrodes. The seemingly small leakage current passing through the wood will kill you.

 

[Michael Ogden]

True...

I have mixed feelings about this. Should we ban fast cars, firearms, ladders, sleeping pills, etc., because some people are stupid? I would imagine that done under the correct safety considerations, the risk from fractal burning could be minimized. If that is true, then wouldn't the best course of action be to supply warnings and information about safety procedures?

No matter what precautions to inform everyone of the risks, stupid people will do what stupid people do...can't prevent that, unless you restrict the ability of those who would have heeded the warnings, and would take the appropriate actions to safely pursue fractal burning.

-----odie-----

In my "other" life, I work with farm equipment - tractors, hay cutters, etc. There is almost as much yellow and black CAUTION stickers plastered on everything as there is trademark colored paint. I have to wonder, would one walk up to a machine that is loud, with spinning stuff all over the place and stick one's hand or foot into it? But then, the manufacturer would be faulted because "It didn't say I wasn't supposed to stick my hand in there". Sad state of affairs.

 

[Peter D'Attomo]

I purchased a piece years ago with the burn, and it got me started on the process. I did a few pieces and liked the effect.
I had help from qualified electricians who advised me. Hope someone will develop a safe method, it has it's use.

 

[Steve Bonny]

In my "other" life, I work with farm equipment - tractors, hay cutters, etc. There is almost as much yellow and black CAUTION stickers plastered on everything as there is trademark colored paint. I have to wonder, would one walk up to a machine that is loud, with spinning stuff all over the place and stick one's hand or foot into it? But then, the manufacturer would be faulted because "It didn't say I wasn't supposed to stick my hand in there". Sad state of affairs.

They put the stickers to cover what stupid people have already done! If you see a sticker, you can be sure that someone has killed or hurt themselves doing it. One of my favorites one is on the bathroom doors at work. The sticker says "Caution - Door might open". Really?

 

[Darryl Fective]

I purchased a piece years ago with the burn, and it got me started on the process. I did a few pieces and liked the effect.
I had help from qualified electricians who advised me. Hope someone will develop a safe method, it has it's use.

I believe that it can be set up to operate in a safe way. I'm guessing the problems arise when people decide to hold or move electrodes while it's operating. I would guess there are a lot more deaths from using chainsaws, than fractal burning. A chainsaw is sort of an essential tool for woodturning, but fractal burning is more of an elective embellishment.

 

[Dave Landers]

when people decide to hold or move electrodes while it's operating

Probably, but a problem is that you can't see the electricity. You can see, for example, the horror-movie-implement at the end of the chainsaw, so there's some bit of warning there. Electricity is invisible. It's also not understood by most "normal" people. Invisible danger + ignorance is not a good combination. Note that ignorance is not a defect, just a state of doesn't know (yet).
But ignorance (plus some youtube) tends to make us believe we'll be ok.

IMO: The AAW's stance is correct for an organization mostly made up of normal folk (or made up of mostly-normal folk ... take your pick). It matters not how many people are killed or not, nor how many understand and can take proper precautions. As long as there's a significant quantity of "normal" members, a very strong caution is warranted. Sometimes the only way to make a caution stick is with a rule.

 

[Ed Davidson]

All fractal burning set-ups that I'm aware of are homemade, jury-rigged, not lab tested/certified and potentially deadly. If you choose to take your chances and do it anyway, warn your family and loved ones that if they find your lifeless body in the shop some day, next to your prized fractal-killer..."don't touch anything, including me."

 

[Jerry Bennett]

Last year, in our little town a young guy about 30 at his birthday party with all of his friends and neighbors there decided to show all of them this great new thing. he died on the spot while they watched. He had very right to do it.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

ln the OP's link, there were two people killed, and it's possible one was attempting to render assistance. I can agree that it's a good idea that the AAW safety committee has banned the practice of fractal burning within it's reach.

For the public to not have access to information where private individuals are using fractal burning is problematic at best. Unless there is a law against fractal burning, it becomes an issue of where to draw the line concerning individual rights. That's what freedom is all about, folks......protecting someone's individual freedoms means not allowing a majority opinion to tell someone else what they can, or can't do. I believe I heard somewhere that "freedom means having the right to fail", and that certainly seems to apply here...

Places like TicToc and YouTube have the right to ban, or not ban these amateur videos because they have rights that are also protected.....and it's my opinion they probably should do that.

Those who feel the practice of fractal burning should be banned, should probably contact lawmakers who have the power to do something about it.

All of the above contributes to why I initially stated that I have mixed feelings about this.

-----odie-----

I, too, was wondering how they both got electrocuted. There should be laws against fractal burning, IMO. There are all sorts of electrical codes. Perhaps this falls under one of those in some places.

 

[Michael Edelman]

There’s no way to outlaw fractal burning, or any of a thousand dangerous things people do. What we should focus on is educating people to the risks, and advising them of safer methods.

It *is* possible to construct a safe fractal burning apparatus; there are thousands of devices using high voltages that people use safely. But there are many who will just charge ahead with hand-held electrodes.

 

[Glen Crandall]

When I first saw examples of fractal burning I thought it was very interesting. I even considered purchasing a commercial unit. (Never considered building my own.) But having been an aviation electrician in the navy I do know a bit about the potential dangers. Consequently I shelved my interest in the practice. In my mind, it's not worth the risk. Personal opinion.

 

[Lou Jacobs]

I was surprised to see a recent sales email from Woodturners Wonders featuring a piece with fractal burning. It is certainly within his rights to do so, but just seemed a bit irresponsible to me, considering the AAW position on the inherent dangers.

 

[Daniel Henry]

. . . "irrresponsible" . . . I concur!

 

[Ric Williams]

I'm confident that I have enough conventional electrical training and experience to *think* I could do fractal burning safely. I also have enough sense to know that too much confidence gets people killed every day, because they don't know what they don't know. I also have experienced a few hundred DC volts across my hand and that experience was... memorable.
Risking much worse for the sake of putting random burn tracks in wood? No thanks. I have no desire to be a Darwin award winner.

I propose having anyone interested in trying fractal burning, touch their tongue to the terminals of a fresh 9v battery and try to hold it there. Then explain to them that what they're thinking of playing with is at least 1000 times stronger and if it hit you, you most likely would not be able to make it stop. Nor would anyone who touched you while trying to save you.

I do know of a news report of a local guy who tried fractal burning, screwed up and electrocuted himself, his mother and his girlfriend. They all survived, but last I heard he was in a hospital with seriously burned lungs, among other injuries, and it was unknown if he'd survive. He thought he knew what he was doing. The two women who tried to save him had less serious injuries, like permanent nerve damage. They didn't deserve that fate.

 

[Daniel Henry]

I'm confident that I have enough conventional electrical training and experience to *think* I could do fractal burning safely. I also have enough sense to know that too much confidence gets people killed every day, because they don't know what they don't know. I also have experienced a few hundred DC volts across my hand and that experience was... memorable.
Risking much worse for the sake of putting random burn tracks in wood? No thanks. I have no desire to be a Darwin award winner.

I propose having anyone interested in trying fractal burning, touch their tongue to the terminals of a fresh 9v battery and try to hold it there. Then explain to them that what they're thinking of playing with is at least 1000 times stronger and if it hit you, you most likely would not be able to make it stop. Nor would anyone who touched you while trying to save you.

I do know of a news report of a local guy who tried fractal burning, screwed up and electrocuted himself, his mother and his girlfriend. They all survived, but last I heard he was in a hospital with seriously burned lungs, among other injuries, and it was unknown if he'd survive. He thought he knew what he was doing. The two women who tried to save him had less serious injuries, like permanent nerve damage. They didn't deserve that fate.

Some will stated that we have the freedom to do whatever we please to do. In a vacuum that might be correct. However, as you adaptly wrote, the 'good samaritans' didn't deserve that fate.