Big lathe, big bowls?

[john lucas]

I have a powermatic 3520A and after I got it I did what I'm sure many of you do. I started making bigger and bigger things. Then I found out that I can't get rid of 20" bowls. Wood that large is a hassle to load into the truck, my saw is just barely big enough to cut it up and it's a struggle to load it on the lathe. Large bowls seem to take forever to sand and finish.
So my question is, how many of you turn large bowls or other big stuff. I love my lathe. It's fantastic for offcenter work because of the mass of the lathe and the same is true for roughing smaller bowls. The power and mass of the lathe makes it a joy to use. I do on occasion with for more swing for odd projects but in reality a good solid 14" lathe would do 90 percent of everything I turn. maybe even a smaller lathe. I'm thinking a 12" mini lathe made of lead might be the best deal.

 

[Mike Cunningham]

I ventured down that same road. Started some years back with a Jet 1236 that my wife purchased for me. From that I went to a Vicmarc shortbed VL300 and immediately started making 20" - 22" bowls. I soon learned several facts, obtaining, transporting and processing wood of that size is work. Storing rough-outs of that size requires space. Finding customers seeking bowls of that size is rare......at least for me (maybe it's the quality and not the size ). Anyway, my experience was the same as yours, too many negatives and no market for that size bowl. However, having said that I still have use for a large lathe, and turn large pieces of wood. I moved into wall hanging sculptural type turnings as well as shields (they're getting better and I've been selling a few). I also decided that I wanted more bed length than my shortbed offered (just in case!!) so through some wheeling-dealing, horse-trading and driving time, I ended up with my friend Bob Rosand's Oneway 2436, he with a smaller, newer Oneway, another fellow with my Vicmarc and another party in Ct. with cash. I love the size and mass of the Oneway and I can still turn peppermills and bottle stoppers in addition to quite large wall hangings. But, 18"+ bowls haven't been onboard. I have a Vicmarc VL100 as well. A friend has a Jet 1642 2 hp that seems capable of most anything someone would want to turn.

 

[hockenbery]

Hi John,

My experience with Big bowls (above 16" diameter) and big hollow forms (above 14" diameter) is similar to yours.

displayed nicely they draw folks into the booth. However they generally take along time to sell. Large pieces tend to dominate a room and people can't envision using something that large.

From a pure business point of view, bigger pieces are not worth it for me. The sell for a premium but they take more time to make. nailing a big curve can take two to 3 times as long as a smaller one and of course removing the material. Big pieces take up more room in a gallery of show booth and they tend to stay there a long time.

That said a large hollow form or a 22"bowl on a pedestal will draw folks in.
I had a discussion with the late Frank Sudol about big pieces. He said people are buying big houses, 6,000 square feet. They need big pieces to fill them and that was his market. Few of us are in Frank's league.

A 16" lathe is plenty big enough for most of what sells well. For folks that turn 20 hours a week or more. The bigger lathes lathes come with features besides the swing that make turning more productive.

happy turning,
Al

 

[Griesbach]

I couldn't agree more. I just put a 75 Lb burl on my PM3520, the biggest piece,I've ever put on a lathe, shaped and cored it. I could have used more swing so I didn't have to cut so much off the edges but the biggest core is going to finish out at about 16". Until you actually see and handle a bowl that big you have no real idea just how BIG it really is.

A friend of mine that does lots of shows each year kept taking a 14 incher for three years before it sold. With my burl I should have taken a slice off the end for a large platter which might have an easier time selling.

 

[S. Clark]

nailing a big curve can take two to 3 times as long as a smaller one and of course removing the material.

The challenge is 90% of the fun! While I do sell may work, I don’t make my work to sell. In other word, I don’t have to sell to eat. Selling is a way of sharing with the community and is a reality check for where I’m at with my skill and my art/craft. Everything else I’ve read here is right on with my experiences too.

I have a VB36. Fantastic machine; I love to turn goblets on it. Does that make sense? Only to those that have a VB.

- Scott

 

[john lucas]

Scott your talking to someone who turned a goblet 1/4 the size of the head of a pen on his 700lb powermatic. If I just had a VB36 I could probably turn smaller.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

i chose a 16 inch swing lathe at richmond after viewing the wonderful turnings displayed, 90% (an estimate) of the work could have been done on that swing. i was more interested in the lowest speed of the lathe than the swing because of out of round found wood. turnings of a large variety of different wood and forms were in the instant gallery

what is the percent increase in torque for how deep a turning is compared to how wide it is?

while i certainly have trouble over a certain depth, i also have increasing trouble when i turn over a certain width, especially the inside of a hollow form

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

I got the bed extension for my PM3520b and mounted it in the lower position. Turned a whopper of a piece exactly once, then moved the bed extension to the upper postion. Much more useful in that postion for me.

Although I don't frequently turn large diameter pieces, I wouldn't want to go with a smaller swing machine. When I had a 14" swing lathe I was always fighting the banjo trying to get the largest piece of wood on lathe I could. With 20.5" of swing on the PM, I can't remember the last time I had to take the banjo into consideration when planning a piece.

Ed

 

[robo hippy]

Any bowl over 18 inches is a 'party' bowl. This is more of a specialized market. I do sell mostly 12 to 14 inch bowls for 'family'. It is nice to have one in your booth if you sell regularly, but I wouldn't keep an inventory of them handy. People will remember, and call you back. Finding and handling wood that size isn't too much of a problem for me, but I did concrete work for 30 years also. I never considered it to be any more of a problem to shape some thing that size, same process as a smaller bowl, and time involvement isn't any more porportionally expected. They are fun to show off, and do bring people into your booth.
robo hippy

 

[Richard Baker]

My experience was similar to John's, but on a smaller scale (1642-EVS2). Made a couple of segmented "vases" that ended up being 15-1/2" x 25" tall. They look good in corners of a large livingroom, but no one has said "Oooh, please make me one of those". Any desire for a larger lathe has dissipated. The long bed is handy for sliding the tailstock out of range of one's elbow.

 

[Jim Stoppleworth]

After I got my 3520b I had to do what most everyone else has done, make a bigger bowl. It was supposed to be a 28" bowl (family sized popcorn bowl). Wood had a major defect that reduced the finished size to 20"diametrer by 11inches deep. Gave it to son's family for a popcorn bowl. They use it everyday as a catchall in their living room for toys, remotes, etc. Daughter promptly told me she DID NOT want a bowl that big for her family. I've probably made my one and only big(ger) bowl. It was as has been said here a lot of work sanding.

Stoppy

 

[Brujo]

I must eat more fruit than you all. The 20" redwood bowl on my kitchen counter, the first big bowl turned on my stubby 1000 can barely hold the weeks bounty from the local farmers market.

I think a 16-20 inch is the perfect size for a fruit bowl.

I think the previous posters are generally right about big bowls not selling as well, although I think it is the price not the size that is discouraging buyers. Spending more than a bill or two on a salad bowl is out of the question to even a lot of art collectors.

I generally save my big pieces (>20") of wood for wall hangings and sculptural pieces. I have never had one of those sit around for too long even though I always put a price on them way over what I think they should fetch.

 

[waltben]

I originally wanted a Stubby 1000 thinking of the extra swing, but Vicki Jordan talked me down to a 750. Although I've turned up to about 26" round and 23 x ~18" oval, I agree that anything over around 18" takes quite a while to sell.

I turned a 25" diameter bubbinga piece that took over two weeks to complete - mostly sanding (and sanding, and sanding, and sanding. . . . ). I've made several pieces out of more cooperative woods like pecan that were much less labor intensive. I do know the more interesting and colored wood pieces like the pecan ones have almost all sold, but I've still got that monster bubbinga one.

 

[Wyatt Holm]

Before I got my Vicmarc, the largest diameter was 10" (very large). Now 20" still is a bit to small than the largest I want to make. I have made a few 20', several 18" and 16" pieces. But I would say that the most easy, and perfect size is 14". I do not use the full swing of my lathe very often. But when I do use it, it does get used. The last project I made was a 48" long spoon. The handle was about 3/4" diameter. I was grateful for the longbed on my lathe for that.

 

[Steve Worcester]

When I bought my latest 2436 3HP, I got the full outboard attachment with the toolrest. Made a few large bowls (made it in into 500 bowls even) and some wall hangings. But large work requires a whole different commitment and level of concentration (and time) that I rarely use. In addition to having to get a engine hoist to put the wood onto the lathe.

A small hollow form at 700 RPMs coming off the lathe will give you a noogie and a black eye, a 36" crotch at 700 RPMs will kill you.

I think I have had enough trips to the ER and trauma center

 

[Tony K. in NC]

Not as much time in it

Well I have been turning for about a year now (March 28th will be a year) And i found out real quick that the rikon 12" i had didn't do what i wanted, by the time i had turned what i could fit it was only about 8 to 10" dia. granted that is my best selling but i do sell quite a bit of larger items also. BUT my main goal was hollow vessels. With that in mind i got the jet 16/42 1 1/2 hp. I have maxed out its swing a few times but generally ends up about 12 to 14" dia. but for the most part that is about as large as my market will take. With all that being said, I still spend quite a bit of time on the rikon but enjoy the strength and VS of the jet.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Somewhere around 16 inches there's a transition from bowl to objet d'art. The thing gets too big to put into most cabinets without dinging it up, and is too wide for most shelves. Pretty much means it has to hang on the wall or eat up a lot of table/counter space. If you've got a formal dining room with seldom-used furniture, good thing. If not, you'll be pushing it out of the way to put the condiments onto a turntable in the same location pretty soon.

It's not an extra 2-4" that I seem to need, to use a common weatherman phrase, but an extra 1/8 or 1/4. That's how much larger I cut my blanks than the over-the-bed capacity. Sure would be nice to have a bigger lathe then. Instead I drawknife or spokeshave the nubs or take it back to the saw. Heat of frustration begins the drying process early, though.

 

[George Guadiane]

I see that this thread is OLD - and still timely.
I have been turning bigger pieces TO ORDER lately, but like everyone else, it seems that other than this retailer who is just using the pieces for store decoration, the big pieces that I have done, just SIT.
I turned two pieces off the end of my lathe, just to get them round, first time I used the outboard turning stand in about 3 1/2 years (when I bought the 3520 MM). Just enough to get them round and over the bed... I won't be doing that again, any time soon, not even for the (GOOD) money. I had an almost finished vase come off of my jamb chuck, JUST as I was taking (wait for it...) the last cut on the bottom... Talk about no fun. Smaller pieces don't do that as often.
Grunting and straining are NOT the reasons I turn wood.

 

[cwearing]

?

The Jet 1642 will handle anything I'm capable of working on----it is also dollar for dollar possibly the best purchase out there.

 

[mdwine]

I sure am glad to be reading this NOW, instead of getting a larger lathe!

Now, I'm an EXTREME-NOOB, I have exactly one six inch shallow bowl under my belt. (and I turned that with help from an instructor!)

But... that doesn't stop me from dreaming and thinking of "bigger and better"... This thread was exactly what I need to check my dreams with my reality !

Intresting reading, and it is exciting to think about.... for now!

Thanks to all for sharing their experience!

 

[john lucas]

I read about and dream about cars like the Saleen f7 and lamborghini but I drive a 97 Mercury tracer 5 speed. 0-60 in about 13 seconds on a good day with a tail wind but I get almost 40 MPG and don't even carry comprehensive insurance on it, it isn't worth it.

 

[Barbara Gill]

I have a Oneway 1640 with the outboard turning set up. I got this lathe because of its possibilities. I can turn large if I want and I can turn long if I want. I have used both the large and the long but not often. It is nice to have the 16" inboard capability. It is also nice to have all that bed for my hollowing rig.

 

[Mark Placek]

Large bowls

At the start of my turning career, I thought bigger was most certainly better.
My largest to date is 24" square and 7.5" deep, measured diagonally it's 34"
This was a commissioned piece for the delMano gallery and now sits on a huge dining room table in Lake Tahoe.

These days I rarely turn over 18", I found this size is what most of my clients wanted, and much easier to turn.
I still use the same lathe, it's a little small for what I'm turning, but I feel very comfortable (still cautious though) working with it.

 

[salgoud]

I am glad that I read this thread. I am planning on getting new lathe this year and thought I would get on with a bigger capacity. Mine lathe now has a 16 inch swing which handles very well about 98 % of what I turn.

After reading this thread I think I may stay with a 16 inch swing lathe. I not sure even why I want another lathe, the one I have now works fine.

 

[john lucas]

I think we should explain that many of us buy bigger lathes because of the Mass and sometimes horsepower. I bought my Powermatic because I had turned on one and was impressed. You can rough out faster because there is less vibration.
sometimes I turn off center work or square work. The diagonal on these can easily reach beyond the swing of smaller lathes. There's also that occasional weird piece like a table top I did for a client that required that I turn with the headstock slid all the way to the end and a homemade floor stand tool rest. I bought this lathe because it had possibilities, not because I needed it.
Bigger lathes usually have larger motors which can also be beneficial when roughing out small or large pieces. You can take bigger bites if your tool handling skills are up to it.

 

[David Wilkins]

I got a bigger lathe last year, went from a 1440 reeves drive to a nova dvr with outrigger. I did a 19" bowl a month ago, and I had a 28" one on a week and a half ago. My projects are erratic.
I teach turning too, all my projects have to be designed to be turned on midi lathes, there is no limit there. Early on I discovered the 100's, more likely 1000's of projects I could teach, and that taught me how unimportant lathe size is.

 

[Eric]

What John said

I think we should explain that many of us buy bigger lathes because of the Mass and sometimes horsepower. I bought my Powermatic because I had turned on one and was impressed. You can rough out faster because there is less vibration. .....There is also that occasional weird piece........ I bought this lathe because it had possibilities, not because I needed it.
Bigger lathes usually have larger motors which can also be beneficial when roughing out small or large pieces. You can take bigger bites if your tool handling skills are up to it.

I agree with John. I moved up to my PM3520B for it's mass (which I almost regretted while moving my new toy from the delivery truck to my basement) I also wanted the spindle size, the continuously variable speed ranges, reverse, horsepower, and it's movable head.

I don't think I've turned anything larger than 18" finished. But it's great to be able to tune the RPM to the woods vibration and increase the RPM as the work piece progresses.

Question - What wall thickness do you use for your larger bowls?
Also, have you found that, for the same size bowls, thinner wall are accepted more than thicker walls, or thicker over thinner?

 

[Frank Kobilsek]

I moved up from Jet 1642 to PM 3520 last spring. I too bought the ext. and mounted it in the lower position. The only good use for it has been a place to set the tailstock when I need to get it out of the way. I have yet to turn a piece that needed that swing. The max in my limited marketing effort to sell are 14" bowls and platters maybe a bit bigger.

That said the weight and power of the PM makes turning more comfortable and faster than the 1642.

Frank

 

[john lucas]

I make my larger bowls thicker, probably 5/8" or a little thinner. The just feel better. I think a really thin bowl that size would feel too flimsy to the customer. They handle my 6" thin bowls like they are afraid to use them. consequently if I make thin bowls I make them decorative so they only roughly appear useful.

 

[Michael Stafford]

For the longest time I have wanted to turn some larger pieces but not necessarily bowls. I want to turn large platters that can serve as wall hangings. I accumulated large planks, some up to 22" wide that when I purchased my intent was to resaw them into boards for the making of boxes of the flat work variety. When I began turning I thought I would resaw them and use them for segmented work. And finally I decided that they would be best served if I used them as platter blanks so that is how they will be used. From the few platters I have turned it was obvious that I needed to develop my skills before I used these valuable and beautiful wide planks. So I decided to take a platter turning class.

With my new lathe I have turned a couple of bowls over 20" just because I had the blanks. I have a few more large blanks but I doubt that I will ever turn many large bowls because I am not going to invest in a coring system and I hate to see so many chips end up in the compost pile.

It reaches a point in every turner's life that there are no more horizontal surfaces where turnings can be displayed. That display space is consumed even faster when you turn large bowls. Everybody should turn at least one I guess to get it out of their system. I thought I had it out of my system after I turned the last one but I guess I am going to turn all the blanks I have.

In Richmond last year, Anthony Harris had a very large bowl on display in the Instant Gallery. It was not the item you were supposed to look at, rather what it contained. He had dozens of small boxes with threaded lids in his large bowl which attracted a lot of attention. Maybe the best use for a large bowl is to display smaller turnings like boxes. I am pretty sure I cannot eat as much salad as a 20+ inch bowl can contain and even though I love fruit that it a lot of fruit to eat before the fruit flies get it....

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

I've been wanting to turn a wall hanging, but I don't want to upset the apple cart at home.

My wife hangs her quilts, embroideries, beadwork and pictures on the walls. My turnings occupy the horizontal space (outside of the kitchen).

It's been a peaceful coexistence so far. If I try to claim some wall space, it could get ugly. She might start talking about wanting to park her car in my workshop / studio again.

Ed

 

[Michael Stafford]

Ed, my wife also does needlepoint and beading so I do know where you are coming from. We have a lot of walls and friends who have walls that are bare...I wonder how they sell.......

 

[MichaelMouse]

I moved up from Jet 1642 to PM 3520 last spring.
That said the weight and power of the PM makes turning more comfortable and faster than the 1642.

Anxious to get things done? Guess that would put you in the "lathe is a tool" camp?

I went the opposite direction, purchasing a lighter weight lathe with larger capacity than my former. Since it has two speed settings below the minimum on Ol' Blue, I can turn rough pieces with comfort. Takes a little longer, but I'm not really in a hurry. Slower is safer, anyway. Think I'll break out a faceplate someday and turn something I can't swing over the bed just to say I did it.

Does have a full one horse rather than three-quarters, so it is more "powerful" overall than the Delta. Once again, nothing I care to challenge, because my forearms don't look like Popeye's.

 

[roger dunn]

Big lathe, Big Bowls

I started with a General 20" and turned on it for 4 years. I turned up to it's capactiy and after I'd given away bowls to friends and family who said "enough" I realized I needed another option for what was left from making sawdust. I got a Powermatic 4224 with outboard. I heard that a gallery in Seattle and one in Port Townsend wanted 'bigger bowls' so that was the niche I've entered, bowls over 15" and platters up to 23". It amazes me that people have the space to use them or display them but it is enjoyable to have an outlet for extra $ to buy supplies as a hobby turner.

 

[odie]

My Woodfast has a 16" overall capacity.

Since we're giving opinions, it's mine that the perfect sized lathe is probably in the neighborhood of 20". If I had 20" available to me, I'd still likely do 99% of my work less than 16".

I've only turned down a purchase of good solid defect free wood between 16" and 20" a few times.......they are rare, for sure......but, those times they were available to me, I'd like to have tried!

24" is bordering "overkill"......but, that's just my opinion. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a 24" lathe, if it had what I were looking for in other ways, though.......

OOC

 

[LHauch]

While I currently have a Nova DVR w/extension that has 16" over the bed with 29" outboard turning capacity, my next will be a larger lathe, either the PM4224 or a Robust Sweet 16. While I have only turned two pieces that were larger than 16" dia., the extra weight will help me to turn larger hollow forms.
If you want a 28" tall by 12" dia. HF, you need to have the weight of the larger lathe, it's not the swing that matters.
Yes, the larger pieces are sitting out 1 on a plate stand on a corner table, the other is hanging on the wall.
I use the outboard capacity mostly for taking off the tenon on smaller the 12 - 15" bowls which are mounted on my cole jaws.

Cheers,
Larry

 

[Paul Rains]

this is great post for me

I am moving up from Jet Midi, where I have turned 10 inch bowls. I was looking at Jet 1642, 1.5 or 2 hp, now powermatic has my eye but $1000 more than Jet 2hp, I just don't know if I can afford $2000 let alone $3000, what is your opinion??

 

[odie]

I am moving up from Jet Midi, where I have turned 10 inch bowls. I was looking at Jet 1642, 1.5 or 2 hp, now powermatic has my eye but $1000 more than Jet 2hp, I just don't know if I can afford $2000 let alone $3000, what is your opinion??

Well, if an opinion is what you want......an opinion is what you'll get!

I've had a number of JET tools in the past, but not a lathe. Jet produces some very decent equipment, but not the best. The main thrust of Jet is to capture the market with lower prices......and, we all know what that means!

If it were me, I'd get the Powermatic.

The Jet will get anyone going, but if this hobby ever gets serious for you......you'll end up selling the Jet.

OK........now, you have my opinion! :cool2:

ooc

 

[mdwine]

I think electronic variable speed and reversability are very good considerations as well...