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CBN.....an alternative point of view.

odie

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Odie I have the Veritas burnisher and the pins on mine are tall enough to do my 1/2" Sorby scraper. I have had it for around three years so yours may be an older model. They might supply you with taller pins. The pins on mine are at least 1/8" taller than my Sorby scraper. I use it a lot on final finish on my bowls.

Yep, you are absolutely right, Fred.......:cool:

Not only are the newer Veritas pins tall enough to handle 1/2" Sorby scrapers, but there are two of them! My original Veritas only had a single 3/8" tall carbide pin that was most likely epoxied into the hole.......it needed to be driven out. My scrapers are all ground to about 75°, and this is close enough to the two suggested angle grind uses in the new Veritas directions, that I'm using both pins. I'm now experimenting with the possibilities. The Quilted Maple turning you see in the photo was a great piece to experiment on, being how this grain pattern is such a difficult wood to get a clean finishing cut with a scraper. I'm seeing improvement, but am hoping more "stick time" with burnished burrs will see even more improvement......working on it. So far, so good! ;)

Since I've now got two Veritas bases, I'm using both of them mounted side-by-side on a quick detach mount that fits between the bedways. It has been my usual to make special tools and jigs instantly accessible, or it becomes too easy to not use them. Making everything very convenient to use, is key!

ko
 

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Just curious, which pen do you like. I have tried both at different times and I'm still not sure why there is two pens. The sharper pointed one would give less curl on the bevel. I really like how they work just can't make up my mind about which one.
 

odie

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Just curious, which pen do you like. I have tried both at different times and I'm still not sure why there is two pens. The sharper pointed one would give less curl on the bevel. I really like how they work just can't make up my mind about which one.

At this point, I'm not sure which is better, either, Fred.......

The answers probably aren't going to be evident without some additional "time in the saddle", so to speak.

Since my scrapers are at about 75°, and are more in-between the recommended ranges for the two carbide pins, it may be more of a personal preference, over other turners whose scraper grind angles are at the two extreme ends of the recommended ranges. In the case of the latter, it may be more evident to these turners which carbide pin is better for their needs........:confused:

ko
 
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Just curious, which pen do you like. I have tried both at different times and I'm still not sure why there is two pens. The sharper pointed one would give less curl on the bevel. I really like how they work just can't make up my mind about which one.

From product page at Lee Valley: "Two 1" long carbide burnishing rods are supplied. One is ground at 10° for burnishing scrapers with bevels of 70° or 75°. We now include a second rod ground at 5° to burnish 75° to 80° bevel angles."

This thread has been very interesting to me. However, without an organized understanding of scrapers (yet), much of it hasn't "stuck" yet. I find Doc Green's 3-part scraper article to be very helpful in developing a basic understanding of scrapers, and how various burrs might work (or not!). Even experienced turners might find grist for the mill there, as he's done some experiments.

Part I
Part II
Part III
 

odie

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From product page at Lee Valley: "Two 1" long carbide burnishing rods are supplied. One is ground at 10° for burnishing scrapers with bevels of 70° or 75°. We now include a second rod ground at 5° to burnish 75° to 80° bevel angles."

This thread has been very interesting to me. However, without an organized understanding of scrapers (yet), much of it hasn't "stuck" yet. I find Doc Green's 3-part scraper article to be very helpful in developing a basic understanding of scrapers, and how various burrs might work (or not!). Even experienced turners might find grist for the mill there, as he's done some experiments.

Part I
Part II
Part III

Thank you very much for posting these articles, Jamie.......very well done, and I find myself agreeing with everything, so far. The illustrations are great, too. I just finished part one, and will come back later to finish parts 2 and 3.....I'm shutting down my computer after posting this, and will return later this evening. From what I've read so far, I can highly recommend part one, anyway! :D

You see the two Veritas pins have an overlap of the recommended scraper angles at exactly 75°, and that just happens to be my standard scraper grind! I've been testing both pins on my scrapers, and honestly, I'm not seeing any difference in performance, so far. If my scrapers were closer to 70°, or 80°, there may be a noticeable difference, but mine are smack dab in the middle, and so far, both are very applicable to my style of turning!

Thanks again for doing the research on this, and posting your findings, Jamie.......It's a great resource!

ko
 

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As a scraper phycho, I found Doc Green's article interesting. However, the CBN wheels add another whole dimension to scraper sharpening and burr formation. The burr from more standard aluminum oxide wheels is very fragile. From the CBN wheels, they are very similar to the burnished burrs.

robo hippy
 
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As a scraper phycho, I found Doc Green's article interesting. However, the CBN wheels add another whole dimension to scraper sharpening and burr formation. The burr from more standard aluminum oxide wheels is very fragile. From the CBN wheels, they are very similar to the burnished burrs.

robo hippy

Oooo, psycho?. Will I need protection if I stop by your shop? OK, get serious -- with the CBN wheels (of which I dream), how much can you control the burr? Or do you simply need to have a light hand and the burr you get is the burr you get?
 
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john lucas

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I find that different scrapers and need different burrs. Apparently it's both the grind and the temper of the steel that changes how the metal takes a burr. I have one scraper that gets a lousy burr of the grinder but works great with diamond hones to raise the burr. I have another scraper that works best with a burr formed using a steel or ticketer. My John Jordan shear scraper works best with his ceramic hone that he sells for raising the burr. I also find that you can control the size of the burr and the quality of the cut using the different diamond hones. A medium hone leaves a different burr than a course. The finer diamond hones don't work very well for raising a burr.
I haven't used the Veritas burr raising tool but assume it's similar to using my polished steel ticketer which is designed for raising a burr on cabinet scrapers.
 
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My scrapers are some M2 HSS ones from Craft Supplies, a couple of Doug Thompson ones, and some of the Big Ugly ones. I can't really notice much difference other than some durability, which seems to be more of a metal thing rather than a sharpening thing. I use both 80 and 180 grit CBN wheels, and can't seem to feel much difference that way. I have tried upside down sharpening like Jimmy Clewes does, and while it MAY be a tiny bit sharper, for sure it isn't nearly as durable as the right side up sharpening. I don't have the Veritas burnishing tool, so can't really compare it. From seeing it used, I can see that it would be easy to over burnish and get too much curl in the burr. The main memory of seeing it in use was a turner who stated flat out, that it was impossible to hand burnish a burr on HSS, which I took as a personal challenge, and found out it takes very little pressure. I have tried burnishing, and raising a burr with hones, and haven't found them to have any significant advantages, and this is thanks to the CBN wheels. I was at a friends yesterday, and he has one of the Sorby belt sander stations, and the burr from it is not nearly as good as the ones from the CBN wheels. Controlling the burr is mostly pressure against the edge. Most of the time it is a simple kiss against the wheel edge. This does require being able to exactly set your angles on your platform so you don't have to guess. Push hard into the wheel, and you get a fairly heavy burr. Push more gently into the wheel, and you get a strong burr, just not as big, and I have found little difference in durability. I use the same burr for shear scraping. When honing a burr on, I hone parallel to the bevel. If I push up and down, that would be identical to the wheel other than what grit of hone I use. I was talking with Kel McNaughton about sharpening his coring tips and he said to use a 220 grit hone rather than the finer ones, because you get a more sturdy burr. That does seem to have some truth to it. Maybe I need to get a 400 grit CBN wheel to test that out.

The Big Ugly:It is big, and it is ugly. I have been posting about this for some years now. It has been used by the Oregon Coast Myrtle wood turners for so long that no one knows who came up with it first. Traditional is a 30 inch long bar of 3/4 inch steel with tantung (cast metal, almost as hard as carbide, but easily sharpened on standard wheels) silver soldered onto both ends. Heavy glove worn on handle hand. Sharpen after breakfast, turn till lunch, sharpen again after lunch, and then turn till dinner. Myrtle tends to be abrasive, and has interlocked grain. I haven't checked prices lately, but a 6 by 1 by 1/8 inch piece is about $60. Stellite is another metal I am looking into. It is used on the Woodcut coring system, and it sources out of Canada. I have figured out the silver soldering process thanks to a friend, but doubt I will make them to sell as this tool has always been a DIY type thing, and making them to sell would put the price very high. You have to buy silver solder tape or ribbon as they call it, flux between bar stock and ribbon, then flux between tantung and ribbon, heat to cherry red, then let cool. Standard flux and solder methods don't work. I have plans for a video and maybe magazine article, some time within the next year.

I also chatted with Doc Green about scrapers, and need to get back to him again. He has one of the 120 grit Wood River (Woodcraft) diamond wheels that they have since stopped selling in favor of the Optigrind 'Woodriver' CBN wheel they are now carrying.

robo hippy
 
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