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deep deep hollowing

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I am interested in talking to turners that do very deep hollowing as in 3 feet or deeper forms. I would like to know what they use for boring tools, techniques and lathes.

Lyndal Anthony
 

john lucas

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Deepest thing I've done so far was about 16" and you need a big thick bar for that. I added a 1" bar to my jamieson style captured bar system and that was starting to push it. Lyle's new captured bar rig will probably go a lot deeper but I haven't asked him how far.
To go over 3 feet will take a pretty good sized bar, small cutter, and patience. Hopefully someone who has done really big pieces will answer you.
 
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Hi Lyndal,
I just finished making a 1 1/2" x 38" boring bar that I'm going to use in my
Jamieson set up. I drilled the end to receive a bar and cutter from my Woodcut
system. I haven't used it yet, just finished it yesterday. I have a piece of Cherry that's 15" x 48" and I'm going to start it next week. This will be my largest attempt at hollowing. I'm using a Powermatic 3520B lathe.
Jim
 
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I am a member of the same Club that Joe and Steve belong to. I have a version of Steve's bar that actually Steve Sinner and Jerry Sargent market through the Sanding Glove. My bar is the same size but I was pushing it when going 29 inches deep. I made a new bar with Brian McEvoy in mind. It is 2†in diameter and 9 feet long. It works wonderful. What I would like to know is what people that make the forms that are four feet deep and deeper use. I also have just finished building a combination lathe bed extension/tailstock swing away that extends my bed length another 16 inches. I am looking forward to trying that.

Thanks to everyone for their input so far.

Lyndal
 

john lucas

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Since I'm going to build a bigger bar one of these days are there any thoughts on the pro's and con's of rectangular bars, vs round bars. If you use hollow bars would there be any advantage to filling them with something?
 
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Since I'm going to build a bigger bar one of these days are there any thoughts on the pro's and con's of rectangular bars, vs round bars. If you use hollow bars would there be any advantage to filling them with something?

If you use hollow bars I would say fill it with more metal. All joking aside, filling your hollow bar will help dampen vibration John.
 

john lucas

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Greg I made one of the aluminum tubing laser mounting rigs that Bruce Hoover wrote up in the Journal. I think it was the next issue someone suggested filling it with spray foam insulation to make it stiffer. It worked. That's why I'm asking.
 
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Elmer passed away not long back. I think he sold his big stuff to Syd Vierra. At least the last I was at Elmers place he used Soren Berger style cutters that he made himself. If I remember right his bar was 10 feet long. His lathe for it was made from parts from a fork lift. It was amazing how fast a four foot piece could be hollowed in like 1/2 inch cuts. If you dont get what you need from videos Syds around and maybe will help. Elmer was in his 70s doing this stuff.
 
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If you watch the 7th episode of "Craft in America" (Family) on PBS, you will probably get some idea from the Moulthrop segment. You can stream it online from PBS.Com
 
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Lyndal, current project is large black walnut vessel. Started at 30 in tall and shaved off a few to even it out. Diameter is approx. 18 in. Tallest work completed to date is a pine vessel 58.5 in tall. I use a 6 ft 1.75 in dia solid bar tapped to recieve .5 in or .75 in cutting tips. have pro-forme, mcnaughton and a set of Brian McEvoys cutters. Beware any knots they can be punishing!
 

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Thanks to everyone for his/her input. It really has been helpful.

As soon as I get a little extra time, I am going to try out my new 2" dia. x 9' long boring bar with my new 16" bed extension. I should be able to do a 4' tall form!

Lyndal
 

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Square stock bars are slightly more rigid than round. Round stock is often used simply because it can fit a smaller opening.
 

Bill Boehme

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I am a member of the same Club that Joe and Steve belong to. I have a version of Steve's bar that actually Steve Sinner and Jerry Sargent market through the Sanding Glove. My bar is the same size but I was pushing it when going 29 inches deep. I made a new bar with Brian McEvoy in mind. It is 2†in diameter and 9 feet long. It works wonderful. What I would like to know is what people that make the forms that are four feet deep and deeper use. I also have just finished building a combination lathe bed extension/tailstock swing away that extends my bed length another 16 inches. I am looking forward to trying that.

Thanks to everyone for their input so far.

Lyndal

Are they the guys who were set up at SWAT next to the Sanding Glove and turning a huge vase on a long bed Robust? The one that I saw looked like two one-inch bars welded together side by side. There was a Mini-Me version set up on a Jet mini lathe. I have a very large piece of mesquite that I want to turn into a tall vase. I am currently turning the exterior and looking for some sort of hollowing rig after it occurred to me that my Sorby Hollowmaster is far too short.
 
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Bill, I think you are right sanding glove offers them, it is a steve sinners bar and I also like deep hollowing just setting up my shop now but ordered the large bar.

It came in and let me say this is some system, I wasn't sure what to expect but bigger and heavier than I thought, Very pleased the big sell for me was the use of the rolley munro head. call Bruce at the sanding glove also very helpful.....
 
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Square stock bars are slightly more rigid than round. Round stock is often used simply because it can fit a smaller opening.

About 70% stiffer actually. Ideal would be round for the deepest distance, square elsewhere. Square also provides some torsional resistance at the gate.
 

hockenbery

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The square bar is one those woodturning trade offs.
Much stiffer than round
Less friendly to the opening should you touch it with the bar.

A square bar with ease corners is more opening friendly than one with square edges.

Al
 
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Very Deep Hollowing

Lyndal,

Square stock is about 60-70 percent more rigid for the same relative size and material. For round stock the makers of the Kobra hollowing tool have determined that you need roughly 1" diameter per 15 inches when using round stock. Steve Sinners design of two round bars welded together gives the advantages of rounded edges which are much friendlier to HF openings, but has the rigidity of square stock. I think Frank Sudol (who taught Steve) had the best design (it had an extended handle so you could control the tool while standing at the tip). If you look at AAW project book IV you can see the basic design, there is a photo of Frank using my lathe to teach Steve and Binh how to hollow with his tool.
 

Dennis J Gooding

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Lyndal, I tuned in late to this thread but I would like to offer some comments from an engineer’s point of view in the design of a boring bar for very deep hollowing. Setting aside cost, the main issues are the stiffness of the bar, the weight of the bar and the minimum size opening that the bar must penetrate. Ultimately, the last factor will determine whether any design is feasible. For any given opening size, there are some interesting trade-offs to be made regarding the choice of a cross-section of bar. There are three obvious candidates: square bar, round bar and round pipe.

Consider first the relative stiffness or bending strength of the three types of bars. The stiffness is proportional to a quantity called the “second moment of areaâ€of the cross-section. Without dragging equations into the discussion I will summarize the comparative strengths of bars that will fit through a given sized opening. Taking the stiffness of the round bar as 1.00, the relative stiffness of the square bar is 0.424, that is, it will deflect 1/0.424 = 2.36 times as much under a given load as a round bar that fits through the same sized hole. The stiffness of pipe depends on both the inside and outside diameters, but suffers surprisingly little loss of stiffness unless the walls are rather thin. For example, if the wall thickness is 10% of the outside diameter, the stiffness drops only to 0.590 of that of a solid rod. It is immediately clear that a pipe with a 10% wall thickness will be stiffer than a square bar for the same opening size constraint.

Now consider the weights of these respective alternatives. Again, taking the weight of the round bar as 1.00, we find that the weight of the rectangular bar is 0.637 and the pipe with 10% wall thickness is 0.36. Thus a square bar fitting a given opening would not only be far weaker than a pipe of 10% wall thickness but would weigh almost twice as much.

I would summarize these results as follows. If absolute maximum stiffness is required for a given access opening size, then a round bar is the answer, but the weight of the bar also will be maximum. If the opening size requirement can be relaxed just a little, then a pipe can provide the same rigidity as a slightly smaller round bar and weigh a small fraction as much as the round bar. The square bar seems to have no significant advantages in any scenario.

I believe that excess weight would be a problem for two reasons: First, it would increase the static friction force that the turner must overcome to begin to move the tool. Second, it would increase the force necessary to overcome momentum when stopping or redirecting the tool.

For anyone interested in the mathematical details, a Google search for “beam deflection†and for “second moment of area†will provide what you want.
 

john lucas

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Dennis Thanks for the input. It sounds like a solid bar is the choice for most applications. The friction of moving the bar is minimal especially if you wax the tool rest and a round bar has a very small contact point.
ONe thing I'm looking at for a larger bar is overall weight of the bar. I have a hollow tube I've been saving just for this application. I had planned to attach smaller diameter solid bars to the tip simply because I already have them and it's easier to attach cutters to them.
I was going to make the H shape out of the main bar but now think I will simply weld 2 of the hollow tubes together. It will make a more compact unit for storage.
Any suggestions on this idea.
 
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Very interesting thread as I, have and am, making my own bars. My first set were of 1/2" square stock. It does alright for small forms but there is a significant amount of flex beyond about 6". It is interesting that the hollow tube is better in strength than the square stock. I wonder how filling the hollow tube with sand or shot would affect it?
 

Dennis J Gooding

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Nate, filling the bar with shot or sand would not make it stronger--only heavier and harder to control. In principle, this would increase the damping of vibration a bit, but it is not clear that this would be needed.
 
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I have a self made large bore hollowing set up for larger projects. It is a D arm type with a solid round steel bar - accepts a insert in the end that i bought with a tear drop cutter. What is not shown is the vertical arm that holds the laser. If it helps I can take additional pictures of the entire thing set up. It is a stand alone and does not secure to the lathe. I like the setup this way because I can place it however I wish for cutting and it seems to be much stronger.

I also have a steady from the spin Doctor that I use on larger work (see bottom of picture #1).
 

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Bill Boehme

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... Without dragging equations into the discussion I will summarize the comparative strengths of bars that will fit through a given sized opening. Taking the stiffness of the round bar as 1.00, the relative stiffness of the square bar is 0.424, that is, it will deflect 1/0.424 = 2.36 times as much under a given load as a round bar that fits through the same sized hole. The stiffness of pipe depends on both the inside and outside diameters, but suffers surprisingly little loss of stiffness unless the walls are rather thin. For example, if the wall thickness is 10% of the outside diameter, the stiffness drops only to 0.590 of that of a solid rod. It is immediately clear that a pipe with a 10% wall thickness will be stiffer than a square bar for the same opening size constraint....

I don't know that it is immediately apparent to everybody that it is the diagonal of the square bar stock that is being compared to the diameter of the round stock. I thought that it is worth clarifying just in case anyone may have assumed that the way that the size of square stock is normally specified by the side dimensions is what is being compared to round stock with the same diameter measurement.

The only problem with seamless steel tubular stock is the price -- but, you did say "setting aside cost". Wish that I could.

For all practical purposes, considerable hole clearance is necessary for both maneuvering and visibility so it is not a very practical assumption to view things in terms of a boring bar that barely clears the edges of the hole.

I agree with John Lucas that static friction is a non-issue even with the massive Sinner rig that I checked out at the SWAT symposium. And, I see the large moment of inertia as a positive feature that results in smoother control. Since the use of any hollowing rig mandates slow and smooth movements, I don't see a problem in overcoming the momentum of a heavy, but very slow-moving bar.

I agree that there is no benefit in filling a hollow bar with anything although I have heard great wild-eyed testimonials about using the abundant, but very hard to refine unstable element Delirium. they say that it does wonders, but I ... wonder. ;)
 
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It was almost immediately apparent, but I had to crunch the numbers to match Dennis' factor.

Regarding the rule of thumb, 1" diameter per 15" length, the stiffness varies with the fourth power of the transverse dimension, square or round. The tip deflection varies with the cube of the length. So the "rule" applies only in a linear region of the relationship. The Eiffel Tower has a nearly ideal profile, even though the lateral loading is different.

Nate's mention of hollow being stronger than solid needs the interpretation that the hollow is also larger; but not much larger, with the fourth-power boost.

I find no instance of "seamless," except in Bill's post, and don't consider seamless necessary, if welds are on the sides of the tube, away from the tool rest and the gate. D-type frame seems superior to me for torque control.
 

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... I find no instance of "seamless," except in Bill's post ...

Me neither, but I rightly or wrongly associate round welded seam tube with mild steel, which to me seems like something liable to slowly bend when hanging cantilevered quite a distance out from its support. I know that mild steel is probably the most commonly used structural steel, but it is also used in more complex welded up assemblies. My limited exposure to steel tubing of any sort is with respect to the aerospace industry. Also, that is not my field of expertise so I could be all wet.

I do see your point that having the seam on the side is much better than having it on the top or bottom. For all that I know, the solid round or square bars may also be mild steel.
 

Dennis J Gooding

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I must have missed John Lucas' post about static friction being a non-issue and I am a bit surprised. My largest bar is a 1-inch bar about 18-inches long and I have to be careful to keep the bearing surfaces clean and waxed if static friction is not to be a problem for me. To obtain the 3-ft reach that Joe Greiner wants probably will require a bar of at least twice that diameter and more than twice as long and therefore probably will weigh more than eight times as much as mine. Also, don't forget that the weight bearing on the tool rest is at least twice that of the overhanging bar. I would guess that you would have to rig up roller bearing surfaces in both the length-wise and cross-wise directions to make static friction tolerable. The problem with having large static friction is that you have to apply a large force to get the bar to start to move, and when motion starts the friction suddenly drops to near zero, causing over reaction.
 
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It was Lyndal Anthony, the OP, who wants 3-ft, not me (yet). So far, I can reach about 9" with 1/2" solid round shank Oland tool, with torque control by Vise-Grip handle.

Clarification about hollow: The total stiffness is computed as that of the solid outside MINUS the absent inside.

Except for exotic alloys, most steel has modulus of elasticity at about 30 million psi, so grade isn't very important regarding stiffness. Higher strength (different from stiffness, BTW) would resist permanent bending.

It seems to me that ideal would be hollow square with a round solid bar, of adequate free length, welded inside. Flat steel bar welded top and bottom would provide maximum increase in stiffness where needed, but would foul at the gate. Welding on the sides wouldn't, and the stiffness increase would be linear instead of fourth power. For friction concerns, attach stips of HDPE or UHMW to the tube and the gate; impossible to glue, so I'd use rivets beyond the working region. And use a D-type frame.
 

Bill Boehme

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I must have missed John Lucas' post about static friction being a non-issue and I am a bit surprised. My largest bar is a 1-inch bar about 18-inches long and I have to be careful to keep the bearing surfaces clean and waxed if static friction is not to be a problem for me. To obtain the 3-ft reach that Joe Greiner wants probably will require a bar of at least twice that diameter and more than twice as long and therefore probably will weigh more than eight times as much as mine. Also, don't forget that the weight bearing on the tool rest is at least twice that of the overhanging bar. I would guess that you would have to rig up roller bearing surfaces in both the length-wise and cross-wise directions to make static friction tolerable. The problem with having large static friction is that you have to apply a large force to get the bar to start to move, and when motion starts the friction suddenly drops to near zero, causing over reaction.

A common method of reducing breakout friction is through dithering when high inertia, low forces, and small movements are the case. The bar would be moving (thus past the breakout friction problem) long before coming in contact with the wood. Once in contact, there is no shortage of naturally occurring dithering. For me, it goes without saying that tools are kept clean (and waxed if appropriate).
 
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I use a Keith Clark hollowing system. I've turned 2 feet deep with it. Here's a picture.
 

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I finally got around to try to hollow 45 inches deep. What I have learned is; the deeper you go the degree of difficulty increases exponentially! First, the inline roller skate wheels on my steady rest melted, which I expected. I replaced those, but had to reinforce my home built steel tubing steady rest. Next, I was using a Powermatic floor standing tool rest for the rear of my boring bar, but it started flexing, so I built another one. (I had access to some heavy steel tubing.) Next, my 2†dia boring bar had a schedule 80 tubing outrigger on it and the bar was flexing, so I replaced the tubing with 2†solid round bar. The biggest challenge for me was just drilling the pilot hole. My drill extension only allowed me to go 36†deep and I just got tired and stopped there. Some day I MIGHT try going the full 42†deep. (By the way, it took me about 10 hours to hollow.)

Check my pictures of my tool evolution.
 

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Dennis,

This was a great explanation, very well done. Thank you.


Lyndal, I tuned in late to this thread but I would like to offer some comments from an engineer’s point of view in the design of a boring bar for very deep hollowing. Setting aside cost, the main issues are the stiffness of the bar, the weight of the bar and the minimum size opening that the bar must penetrate. Ultimately, the last factor will determine whether any design is feasible. For any given opening size, there are some interesting trade-offs to be made regarding the choice of a cross-section of bar. There are three obvious candidates: square bar, round bar and round pipe.

Consider first the relative stiffness or bending strength of the three types of bars. The stiffness is proportional to a quantity called the “second moment of areaâ€of the cross-section. Without dragging equations into the discussion I will summarize the comparative strengths of bars that will fit through a given sized opening. Taking the stiffness of the round bar as 1.00, the relative stiffness of the square bar is 0.424, that is, it will deflect 1/0.424 = 2.36 times as much under a given load as a round bar that fits through the same sized hole. The stiffness of pipe depends on both the inside and outside diameters, but suffers surprisingly little loss of stiffness unless the walls are rather thin. For example, if the wall thickness is 10% of the outside diameter, the stiffness drops only to 0.590 of that of a solid rod. It is immediately clear that a pipe with a 10% wall thickness will be stiffer than a square bar for the same opening size constraint.

Now consider the weights of these respective alternatives. Again, taking the weight of the round bar as 1.00, we find that the weight of the rectangular bar is 0.637 and the pipe with 10% wall thickness is 0.36. Thus a square bar fitting a given opening would not only be far weaker than a pipe of 10% wall thickness but would weigh almost twice as much.

I would summarize these results as follows. If absolute maximum stiffness is required for a given access opening size, then a round bar is the answer, but the weight of the bar also will be maximum. If the opening size requirement can be relaxed just a little, then a pipe can provide the same rigidity as a slightly smaller round bar and weigh a small fraction as much as the round bar. The square bar seems to have no significant advantages in any scenario.

I believe that excess weight would be a problem for two reasons: First, it would increase the static friction force that the turner must overcome to begin to move the tool. Second, it would increase the force necessary to overcome momentum when stopping or redirecting the tool.

For anyone interested in the mathematical details, a Google search for “beam deflection†and for “second moment of area†will provide what you want.
 
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