dust collection

[DWFII]

I am asking this question everywhere I can think of, so even if you see it elsewhere please do not hesitate to respond. This is such an important topic and especially important to me as the following may illustrate...

I have a very small shop and limited space. I turn small projects as a hobby--pens, candlesticks, handles, etc..

I wear a Resp-O-Rator (?) when I turn and especially when I sand and finish. But I've noticed that I am creating a lot of very fine dust that seems to get everywhere.

I'd like to set up a dust collector that will deal with the fines...both during sanding and after sanding. I can sweep up the heavier stuff--that I'm not worried about (or should I be?)--but the small stuff is becoming a problem I never anticipated. But I simply don't have room for a big bag and barrel cartridge system. I could afford it but the space is not there.

I've seen Grizzley and PSI and a few others offering fairly compact dust filter/air cleaner boxes that can be set near the lathe to collect dust as it is being created. Do these work? Are they sufficient?

My shop space is so limited, I have to store both my lathe and my drill press (I don't have room for a floor model) under a bench...I would appreciate any advice with regard to how to deal with the dust problem--economically and space conscious-wise.

Assume I am completely ignorant of anything to do with dust collection--it's close enough to true--and I welcome advice.

Thanks

DWFII

 

[dkulze]

Yup, DW, the box filters will work well (but keep the respirator mask on also). Just make sure you get one that can clean the volume of your whole shop every 2-5 minutes max and filters down pretty small (I think 1-5 microns is pretty good, anyone else know for sure?). If you can, get one with cleanable filters. Will save money in the long run. Should run about $200 all told.

Now me, I just got a box fan with AC filters taped to it. That's about as low budget (and low tech) as you get but works kinda OK in a pinch (major poverty here).

good luck,
emphasema boy (AKA Dietrich)

 

[Whit]

I've got a ceiling-mounted Delta dust cleaner about 2 feet over and 4 feet up from the lathe with the intake side of the thing pointed at the headstock area. This thing seems to pick up most, but not all of the really light, airborne dust that my central shop dust collector doesn't get. When I'm sanding I place a pick-up hood within inches of the turning wood. And, as Dietrich says, wear a good dust mask. The kind with replacable canisters, not the paper dust masks. They're a joke. All they do is give you false sense of security and filter almost nothing. When sanding away from the lathe, I also use a box fan pointed out an opened window acting as an exhaust fan. I also use the canister mask and this fan when I'm spraying volatile finishes such as lacquer.

I think of dust collection as being akin to the old story of a journey, each step of which gets you one half of the remaining distance to the destination. You get close but you never get all the way there.

Whit

 

[Jim Becker]

There is a remarkable difference between air filters/cleaners (which is what you are asking about) and dust collectors. The only way to effectively collect dust at the source is with the latter using a hood to the rear and bottom of the workpiece as you are sanding on the lathe. You need to pick the material up directly and immediately. It's also important that the DC have the best filtration on it possible. Most of the stock filter bags don't cut it in that respect...you need to get your filtration down to sub 1 micron and cartridge filters are generally the best for that purpose. Don't trust "ratings" for these things from most manufacturers...they are somewhat "creative" in their marketing materials.

An ambient air filter is a "too late" solution when it comes to health-related matters as the fines are already in the air and presumably in your lungs before they even get near the machine. Their real value is cleansing the air of fines missed by other means to reduce the amount of dust that settles in your shop when you are not there.

 

[PapaDoc]

You may have seen my reference elsewhere but some great information has been compiled by Bill Pentz. He is a woodworker who is living with the consequences of not taking care of the fine dust. He has channelled his energy into making this information available to the general woodworker. I had my entire perspective changed. You can get to his site by going to www.billpentz.com and then click on his dust collection/cyclone section.
This is important stuff. Good luck in your effort to add more safety. In a small space, like my own, it is even more important.
Blessings,
David Galloway

 

[GeeSeaWhy]

I have the same problem - small shop, no room for DC. What I use is the Fein Turbo II shop vac. I built a plywood bracket that screws into the modular toolpost I have, the nozzle fits into the bracket. It works well, as evidenced by the amount of dust visible if I don't turn it on. For power sanding, I plug the drill into the vac and the vac starts up when the drill does. There's one disadvantage of my Nova DVR - if I plug the lathe into the vac, the electronics draw enough current to keep the vac always on. With a different lathe you could use the lathe to switch the vac on. I expect the setup wouldn't be as effective on larger turnings, but I guess that's not a problem you have.

HTH

Graeme

 

[Jim Becker]

Graeme, the switching circuitry on the Fein vac wasn't intended to deal with larger motors like you have on your NOVA lathe. It's primarily for small tools with universal motors. It's probably best for you to plug the DVR into the wall outlet by itself.

 

[ssinner]

You are right to be concerned about all that fine dust. The finer it is, the more dangerous it is. Having it around your work area means you are constantly circulating it into your breathing air.

The only way to really eliminate the problem is to collect the stuff at the source. Use a top quality system such as Oneida. Since you're short on space, take a look at their cyclone with the internal filter. It's very compact, but a real pain to clean weekly. That often translates to procrastination, resulting in an inefficient system. If you can afford just a little more space, try the exterior filter cartridge.

In my opinion, the "box filters" are practically worthless, since they only clean the ambient air. Your lungs, of course, are doing the same thing!

The trick is to create a low pressure zone on the side of the work away from you. Don't worry at all about the chips and shavings - you'll not be inhaling many of them. Let them fall to the floor and pick them up later - while running your dust collector, by the way. In fact, run it any time that you are doing anything at all that may in some way stir up or create dust. That low pressure zone will cause the air to move in that direction, taking the fine dust with it. This is a case of needing to move volumes of air. High velocity is not needed, as it would be if you were trying to collect heavier stuff like sawdust or chips. I am able to trap very nearly 100% of the dust by using two 4" drops at each point of operation (lathe). One is mounted on a floor stand, & the other is simply connected to a magnet that I can stick anywhere on the machine. Using a strong quartz-halogen lamp and my glasses as indicators, I can quickly tell if the drops need to be relocated. The smallest of dust particles will show up in the light, & my glasses give me a backup check. If they get dusty after a few hours, something is wrong. Areas of my studio that have not been dusted for three years have a little dust on them, but certainly not what you'd expect from a workspace that is used for woodworking seven days a week!

Others have made the point about filtering down in the 1 micron or less range, so I'll not repeat that. Just be careful, because dust collector used to mean chip collector. Many of the units offered for sale today have filter bags that are about as effective as a window screen.

 

[DWFII]

All,

I ended up purchasing a 1 hp PSI unit with two felt 1 micron bags. I may eventually replace the top one or maybe even both with custom bags from American Fabric Filters. I want to see how the bags that came with the DC work first. I only have the one machine and I figure my run will be less than 8 feet. Bought a lathe hood as well.

One of the folks I talked to at AFF told me to open a small bag of flour at the intake immediately upon first start up. Supposedly this will coat the inside of the bag and "prime" it. I have come to the conclusion that the small box filters are not up to snuff although I may install a ceiling mounted air cleaner later on, to deal with the ambient dust every time I sweep the floor or move a box.

Thanks for all the help. It really did (help, I mean) I'll keep reading this thread if only because this is a subject that I want to know as much about as I can learn

DWFII

 

[ssinner]

I forgot to mention that if you have a shop vacuum, you should get one of the Gore filters for it. The standard filter will pass small particles. The Gore filters are a little pricy, but with care will last a long time. Read & follow the instructions (novel thought, eh?). Run your dust collector when using the vacuum, since the vacuum's exhaust will stir up any ambient dust.

 

[bonsaipeter]

Box fan/filter air cleaner

Suggestion for emphasema boy (AKA Dietrich), and others:

A standard 20"x 20" box fan with an AC filter taped to it is not going to be effective at all in filtering fine dust particles from the air. May I suggest you try the following which is what I have used successfully for several years.

You can spray a fine mist of oil onto an ordinary furnace/AC filter which makes the filter's fibers "tacky" so that the fine dust particles actually stick to them instead of passing right through the rather large opennings. I use the cheapest lightweight motor oil (10-30W) I can find which is too viscous to spray as you purchase it. I therefore dilute it by mixing about 1 part oil with 2 parts mineral spirits which can now be easily be sprayed using an old empty spray bottle from almost any household product. Outdoors, generously mist the entire 20"x 20" filter with the diluted oil by not to the point of dripping. Allow the mineral spirits to evaporate for a couple of hours (outdoors) and then attach the now "oil tacky" filter to the air-in side of you box fan. You will be amazed at how much dust accumulates onto the oiled filter in a relative short amount of time. When the filter looks almost black and I can no longer see light through it, it's time to discard it and replace it with a new one. I pick up the 20" x 20" filters when they are on sale for about 50 cents each. One quart of motor oil (about $1.29) will do about 15 filters. I usually spray 5-6 filters at a time and keep them on hand to be used as needed. Cheap, but amazingly effective.

Remember, it is still best to trap fine dust at its souce with a well designed dust hood and dust collection system and that this is only a cheap solution for capturing the fine dust that does escape into your shop's air.

Peter

 

[dkulze]

Hi, Peter,

I actually pick up the HEPA rated AC filters for about 99 cents each at the local overstock and damage hardware store (they've usually been bent and restraightened). I put a standard filter over it to pull the big stuff so that it doesn't clog as quickly. I know that this is a real cludge job and isn't very effective but it does reduce the dust level in the shop significantly and pulls the cloud away from the lathe. I still wear a respirator for sanding and dry wood. Actual dust collection system is in the works as soon as budget allows (the replacements for the respirator are cheaper, ah well).

Thanks for the reccomendations,
Die <cough, cough>trich

 

[bonsaipeter]

HEPA Filters

Hi Dietrich:

The HEPA filter concept for a box fan sounds interesting. Are these 20" x 20" x 1" in size? Do you happen to know to what micron size particale the're suppose to filter down to? Where in the Boston area to you find these? Sounds like a Building 19 or Spagues type of find. The next time we trek "north" to visit our kids, I'll try to plan it that I can make it to an ART meeting.

Peter Toch

 

[Swampfox]

I am an Environmental Consultant/contractor and do a fair bit of asbestos abatement. During abatement we use negitive air machines, which pull 2,000 cfm through 3 filters the final being a HEPA filter. They are big - 3 X 4 X 3 (maybe). I use one in my shop and also use it as a stand for my bench top table saw. The HEPA filters are expensive but if you change/clean the pre-filters you wont have to change the HEPA filter much.

Here's a link to the company I get them from. They service asbestos/mold abatement companies and if you are interested in respirators they have it all.

www.aramsco.com

 

[dkulze]

The filters I get are usually from Grossman's Outlet store. They are meant for home AC units so I'd imagine they don't filter down to the really small stuff but they get alot of the medium to medium small. Also, the 20x20 fan doesn't draw enough air to act as a full filter for the shop. I need to stress that it is primarilly used for dust abatement, not safety.

I'm about to make my underground garage next to the basement into a shop. I'll be building a wall across it to provide sound insulation and avoid junk creep in either direction. I plan to cut a 20x20 hole in the upper wall to mount a fan in blowing outward. This should provide some negative pressure and move the particulates out into the garage proper. I'll be putting filters on this fan to avoid a nice, even coating of dust on everything but will rely on the open garage door and movement in and out to take care of the really fine stuff.

All in all, the 20x20 is a stopgap, cludged solution to a persistant problem. A real air cleaner and dust collection combo is what I'm eventually shooting for.

By the way, Hi, Peter. Miss ya at the meetings.

dietrich (AKA, The Blacklung Kid)

 

[akransom]

On my site there are 2 solutions. One is a 30" fan mounted in the wall and the other is a vent fan mounted ib the wall. The 30" fan is mounted behind the lathe and even when using an angle grinder with 24 grit there is NO dust problem. The vent fan Is used with miter saw and gets 90% of the dust at 45 degrees. www.turningaround.org

 

[woodwish]

Building a 20" x 20" box fan filter is easy and I used one with stacked filters for several years in my old shop, worked OK. Whenm I built my new shop I looked at the commercially available air cleaners from companies like Jet & Delta. Basically they are what's called a squirel-cage fan with stacked filters, and maybe some fancy timers and such. I went to a local AC contractor and picked up a medium size used fan from a scrapped unit for $5 (mostly to cover the time for the kid that took it out). I built a plywood box to hold it along with three air filters in progessively better effeciency, final being a HEPA rated one. The advantage to squirel-cage fans is the huge difference in volume of air. These fans are what is in you home central heat/AC unit and move a lot of air efficiently. Worth the trouble and still cheap, plus looks a little nicer that a cheap box fan with a filter duct taped to it.

Good luck, any protection is better than none!

Ray

 

[William Young]

Ray;
It sounds like yours is similar to the one I built. The top left picture shows tha squirrel cage furnace blower (sitting on the stool) that came from a scrapped furnace. It had a new motor in it so I had to pay $45.00 for it. The pocket filter provides a lot of surface area and is rated at 1 micron although that rating gets better as a "cake" is formed on the inside of it.. The spun fiberglass filter on the front is the run of the mill $1.00 furnace filter that catches the 'big' stuff.
It is amazing how much fine dust this unit captures.
W.Y.

 

[woodwish]

Very similar to mine but I used three filters stacked in progressively finer quality. I like the pocket filter, where did you find it? I could do some rework and include that, it looks like a big improvement just for air flow due to increased surface area.

Ray

 

[William Young]

Ray;
My pocket filter is 16" x 20" same as used in this one
http://www.houseoftools.com/product.htm?pid=16314 but they are not showing a separate price.

Also BusyBee has them for their model CT051 but they dont show the price for that size replacement one either.. .. only a smaller one for a smaller unit. To get to CT051 click on air cleaners >>> air cleaners , and scroll to bottom of page
http://www.busybeetools.com/

A phone call or email to either of those sites would get you a price and BusyBee is usually the best price.

Other than that, any major tool outlet should have them in stock as well so its best to shop around for price.
W.Y.

 

[gran]

My shop is unheated/unairconditioned. I want to install just the NPU without filters and vent everything outside. No neighbors close by to complain. My thought was to install one of the trashcan collector units upstream of fan unit to keep big chunks out of fan motor. Does anyone see any problems with this set up?

 

[akransom]

Dust colection

Personaly I believe that all the "Air cleaners" are a TOTAL waste of time and money. They don't remover the danderous stuff. Dust collectors work BUT ONLY if the dust collector vents out side the shop. See my solution at http://www.turningaround.org/Casket.htm . NOTHING IS AVAILABLE THAT WILL ALLOW THE AIR TO BE RECURCLATED MINUS THE HARMFUL PARTICLES!!!

 

[gran]

That was my logic for wanting to vent the suction unit outside. Too bad I don't have a window that close to my lathe. Probably just as well as the occasional flying parts would have broken it