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dust control via sanding booth

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I have been using a box fan with a furnace filter hanging behind my lathe for a while now, and for the most part, it seems to work well. I've been thinking of upgrading to the typical dust cyclone/fan system. However, given the challenges of trying to collect dust using a suction system and the fact it's the invisible stuff that kills you, I am starting to ponder the idea of designing a sanding/spray booth like they use in industry. Any turners have their lathe in a cross-draft booth for dust control? Anyone have a sense regarding the feasiblilty of designing one using common MERV13 furnace filters and still catch the invisible stuff (PM2.5)?
 
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Robo Hippy has documented his "sanding in a barrel" setup here sanding hood

A sanding booth is a good idea but you will need to plan for sufficient airflow and effective filtration (or exhaust to the outdoors). Spray booths typically are designed for 50-100 linear ft./min. If the booth opening is 8' x8' (64 sq.ft.) that would call for a blower moving 3200-6400 cfm while accounting for any loss due to filters. That's a lot of air- if it's going outside you may need a heated makeup system. If it's being recirculated you still need a big blower. It's more efficient to restrict the catch area with good hood design. You might think about designing a "booth" with wall and ceiling panels enclosing the lathe closely to keep the airflow requirements down.


Filters are another big subject. MERV 13 furnace filters are not going to capture the smallest particles. Some people insist on HEPA level filtration which is supposed to snag most particles down to .3 micron. A common rule of thumb in dust collection systems is to have a minimum1 sq.ft. of filter area for 10 cfm of airflow. That gets expensive fast. That ratio might not be applicable to a low velocity "booth" though. You also need to consider cleaning the filters- a single stage system will blind the filters with fine dust relatively fast and anyone who has had to clean out a cartridge filter after accidentally clogging it knows what a pain it can be.



I assume most turners (and woodworkers) in general) struggle with this. I have a 6" drop from a 3hp cyclone system to a rudimentary hood on a pivoting arm behind my lathe, and I run a 2,000cfm ceiling mounted ambient air filter, plus I wear a papr when sanding.
 
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Thanks for posting that link Brian. I do plan to upgrade my sanding hood. Mostly I want one that can stay in place for turning, rather than my design that only goes on when sanding. I did try a more open booth, but you need huge air flow to make that work, like maybe 10 times what any average shop dust collection system could put out. You can buy that white plastic like my barrel is made out of in sheet stock, up to 5 by 10 sheets. I found out that 1/4 inch thick stuff is pretty difficult to bend to the shape you want, but with lots of ropes, you can get it to bend. I am thinking that 1/8 inch stock would be perfect. The black hole/slurpy type hoods do about half the job, maybe fine for spindles, but not as good for bowls. It would be fairly simple to add wings to the sides, and/or an under and over part that you could add on or take off, depending on what you are sanding. Been on my mind for a number of years not. I do like the idea of having a hood on rails behind the lathe so you can slide it around to properly position it.

Still trying to come up with a better model of my articulated arm for bowl sanding. Can't sand without it. I want a flex shaft that mounts on a vs mini lathe and/or motor, and a mandrill that goes on the arm, and can handle a 5 or 6 inch disc.... Always some thing else to invent....

robo hippy
 
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Brian, I'm not as expert as the posters above, but I will offer one observation. I used to use the box fan/furnace filter set up and it certainly collects dust. About 1.5 years ago, I installed an actual air cleaner, and it's 2 orders of magnitude better at getting fine stuff out of the air. Now if somebody would only make the odd filter size for these units and provide some competition for the manufacturers...
 
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It’s certainly feasible to create a x- draft booth for dust control. It would be similar to a paint booth. Research is required to determine the velocity in the open end to carry the dust to the collection point. Take into account the negative velocity (dust traveling against the air flow) particularly if power sanding. The blower size will get big, and the sq ft of filter area to maintain flow will get big, but it’s doable. You will have to filter/recirculate unless you turn at outside ambient temp. Look up Bill Pentz dust collection. How much $ you got budgeted?

I looked at dust collection several years ago, more flat work oriented vs turning, but all the concepts apply. To get the airflow and filtration necessary to actually meet OSHA type stds became prohibitive in my view, and I chose a cheaper route, a papr system (Versaflow).
 
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At this point I'm just trying to wrap my head around the feasibility of a wind tunnel, as Mark puts it, and there is always the cost/benefit angle to consider. The PAPR route is certainly less $ than a cyclone-type but doesn't keep dust from infiltrating every square inch of the shop. The cyclones have to be big enough to capture the small stuff in the air stream and there is the filtration issue at the other end you have to contend with--otherwise you are just pumping the small stuff into the shop. Seasonal temperatures here also make replacement air a real thing to contend with. I am quickly understanding why there are engineers...
I'll tinker around with specs and see if I can come up with a design we can poke at to see if it makes sense.
 
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Along with a papr I do use a small 1-1/2 hp DC with large pleated paper filter to catch dust, it just isn’t 100% effective. I have a 1000 cfm filtered blower for spraying I use as a “shop filter” though it doesnt have as fine of filter as the dc. There are the fine filtered shop filters available also. These help with capturing a lot of the dust that settles around the shop, but do not prevent inhaling the dust as you are sanding. You might figure some of these ideas into your “ dusting program”.
 
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Is anybody here using the PM 1250?


I have been wondering about positioning one so that filtered air is blown at my face? I wear a PAPR and run DC and a room air filter, but I'm wondering if this offers any alternatives/benefits? Particularly if the price would come down by a factor of 2 or 3 :) .
 
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The box fans do move a fairly small amount of air. The dust sources in the shop are many. Just about any hood will get most of the dust, but not all of it. Just getting dust on your shirt or smock and walking through the shop stirs up dust. Picking up shavings creates a lot of dust. Best bet is to try to get it before it escapes, so at the source. The air scrubbers are a nice addition.

As for a wind tunnel, that would cover it. On my bucket list is to get into one of the vertical wind tunnels. It won't be as much fun as my days of being a hang glider pilot, but it would get me off the ground again....

robo hippy
 
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Wait! You're on to something. A lathe in one of those skydiver wind tunnels. Plenty of filtered air, no cleanup and no sore feet or tired back from standing at the lathe all day. A real boon for seated turners and just think of the body motion that's possible. :Do_O:eek:
 
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Robo Hippy has documented his "sanding in a barrel" setup here sanding hood

A sanding booth is a good idea but you will need to plan for sufficient airflow and effective filtration (or exhaust to the outdoors). Spray booths typically are designed for 50-100 linear ft./min. If the booth opening is 8' x8' (64 sq.ft.) that would call for a blower moving 3200-6400 cfm while accounting for any loss due to filters. That's a lot of air- if it's going outside you may need a heated makeup system. If it's being recirculated you still need a big blower. It's more efficient to restrict the catch area with good hood design. You might think about designing a "booth" with wall and ceiling panels enclosing the lathe closely to keep the airflow requirements down.


Filters are another big subject. MERV 13 furnace filters are not going to capture the smallest particles. Some people insist on HEPA level filtration which is supposed to snag most particles down to .3 micron. A common rule of thumb in dust collection systems is to have a minimum1 sq.ft. of filter area for 10 cfm of airflow. That gets expensive fast. That ratio might not be applicable to a low velocity "booth" though. You also need to consider cleaning the filters- a single stage system will blind the filters with fine dust relatively fast and anyone who has had to clean out a cartridge filter after accidentally clogging it knows what a pain it can be.



I assume most turners (and woodworkers) in general) struggle with this. I have a 6" drop from a 3hp cyclone system to a rudimentary hood on a pivoting arm behind my lathe, and I run a 2,000cfm ceiling mounted ambient air filter, plus I wear a papr when sanding.
For what it's worth, I've evolved to essentially the same system as Kevin. 6" drop coming from 3hp cyclone attached to rig on PM3520 headstock so it's always right behind where I sand; a whole-shop air filtration box on the ceiling over the lathe; and I wear a PAPR. I purchased the CleanAir PAPR 1.5yrs ago and have gotten in the habit of always wearing it when I turn which has the added benefit of being that I have a face shield on (which I didn't use very often before). Habits are a nice thing: first thing into the shop I put on my smock, then wireless noise canceling earbuds tuned to my favorite radio station, then my CleanAir; cyclone is always switched on before I sand.
 
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Interesting conversation. I’ve tried to “cut” down on dust if that’s even possible. Beyond a papr I’ve used green wood and wet sanding. This past week I got ahold of some dried wood and even though I wet sanded that, the turning created more dust than what I’m used to.

What type of system would help when turning that could handle all the excess wood fibers?
 
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You mean the big shaving that come off a gouge? Those would require 1) a lot of air flow to keep them entrained in the pipes so the wouldn't clog, and 2) a lot of capacity once they reach the collector. I was working on a 12" hickory bowl this and ended up with 1/2 a garbage can full. My original posting was addressing the finer sanding dust that is harder to catch at the source. Sucking fine dust from a large volume of air is challenging due to the physics, so I was thinking about moving a larger volume of air through a large surface area filter rather than a small (6") duct port. But filtering small particles might be even harder physics to overcome than catching it.
 
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Brian, you may be overthinking this. Lots of the folks on this forum do a good job of collecting fine dust with available solutions.

If, however, you want to go farther into the weeds, there's a resource to help you get in there and root around. It never led me to any actionable conclusions, however. http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/
 
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I have heard good things about the Clear View systems. They were not around when I got my centralized system, so I went with Oneida.

Generally it is difficult for the DC to get shavings as well as fine dust. When scooping up the shavings, that puts a lot of dust into the air. To collect at the lathe, you need a hood similar to the one I built to get all of the turning and sanding dust. I would guess that the big gulp type hoods probably get 80% of the dust. The more enclosed the piece is, and the stronger your air flow is, the more dust you get.

robo hippy
 
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I quickly decided to build an outside workstation that is covered but has opensides. Set up takes me about 15 minutes to bring out my equipment from my shop. I have a Powermatic 2014 so the bed is bolted to my bench and stays there. The rest of the lathe I physically set up, head stock is a managable weight. I use all the regular p.p.e. including an Elipse P100 half mask under my faceshield. 20210312_141759.jpg


20210312_141810.jpg

20210313_184516.jpg

This allows me to set up a large three speed shop fan at the end of my lathe and it feels like a wind tunnel. Clean up is fairly quick with a push broom and a large dustpan. It seems like the fine dust is blown away and the chips/shavings are left on the deck behind the lathe. Tearing it down at the end of the session is 15 minutes. You can see the weather proof hood in the last pic that covers the bed of the lathe. I know this isn't dust collection per say but its the solution for dust control that I've come up with and for me it works. The lathe in the shop just covered all of my other equipment with too much dust and even with the windows and doors open the dust (especially the fines) just lingers and hangs in the air.
al
 
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You mean the big shaving that come off a gouge? Those would require 1) a lot of air flow to keep them entrained in the pipes so the wouldn't clog, and 2) a lot of capacity once they reach the collector. I was working on a 12" hickory bowl this and ended up with 1/2 a garbage can full. My original posting was addressing the finer sanding dust that is harder to catch at the source. Sucking fine dust from a large volume of air is challenging due to the physics, so I was thinking about moving a larger volume of air through a large surface area filter rather than a small (6") duct port. But filtering small particles might be even harder physics to overcome than catching it.
Noted. Yes that fine dust really gets annoyingly
 
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I quickly decided to build an outside workstation that is covered but has opensides. Set up takes me about 15 minutes to bring out my equipment from my shop. I have a Powermatic 2014 so the bed is bolted to my bench and stays there. The rest of the lathe I physically set up, head stock is a managable weight. I use all the regular p.p.e. including an Elipse P100 half mask under my faceshield. View attachment 41670


View attachment 41671

View attachment 41672

This allows me to set up a large three speed shop fan at the end of my lathe and it feels like a wind tunnel. Clean up is fairly quick with a push broom and a large dustpan. It seems like the fine dust is blown away and the chips/shavings are left on the deck behind the lathe. Tearing it down at the end of the session is 15 minutes. You can see the weather proof hood in the last pic that covers the bed of the lathe. I know this isn't dust collection per say but its the solution for dust control that I've come up with and for me it works. The lathe in the shop just covered all of my other equipment with too much dust and even with the windows and doors open the dust (especially the fines) just lingers and hangs in the air.
al
Something like this would be ideal for summers here but winters are my frustrating indoor time.
 
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Brian, you may be overthinking this. Lots of the folks on this forum do a good job of collecting fine dust with available solutions.

If, however, you want to go farther into the weeds, there's a resource to help you get in there and root around. It never led me to any actionable conclusions, however. http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/
I tend to over think stuff, it is true and I suspect that just using a cyclone, a PAPR, and dusting once in a while would make the most sense. In fact, I’m not even sure why I started to think on the spray both in the first place. I think it was to reduce dust through out the shop which a normal air filter unit would handle but you also need the PAPR at the same time. And thanks for the link to Pentz’s site. That is what got me heading into engineering land with this project in the first place
 
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Efficient dust collection starts with picking up the dust at the source. That's particularly hard at the lathe, but using as large a duct as possible connected to a hood that can be adjusted close to the work is a good start. A hood surrounding the work like Robo's that is easy on and off would be even better.
 
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I tend to over think stuff
I prefer to call it being thorough. :cool:

When I'm in the shop I use a Jet room air filter and I run a 3 HP DC whenever I use any power tools, including the lathe and the shop still gets dusty (yes, I wear a PAPR). In fact, by far the dustiest thing in the shop seems to be the top of the dust collector. :p
 
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Is anybody here using the PM 1250?


I have been wondering about positioning one so that filtered air is blown at my face? I wear a PAPR and run DC and a room air filter, but I'm wondering if this offers any alternatives/benefits? Particularly if the price would come down by a factor of 2 or 3 :) .
I just bought the PM1250. I was never able to get a firm answer as to whether it is HEPA or not. I think just short of a HEPA rating but an improvement over my ceiling mounted air cleaner and all other air cleaners except Oneida's box type cleaner. However, I would recommend using it as an add-on to an established dust collection system.

I'm kind of obsessed with collecting as much of the finest dust as possible. I have an Oneida cyclone for direct collection from my larger tools like the table saw, bandsaw, jointer, planer, and router table, a HEPA vacuum for direct collection from my sanders and routers, a ceiling mounted air cleaner for ambient dust, and recently added the PM1250 which maybe will in the end just replace the ceiling mounted cleaner.

When I started turning about 3-4 years ago, I decided I needed to use my cyclone to directly connect as much dust as possible. I bought the Black Hole setup from Craft Supplies USA. It was pricey but it works well. It is connected via a flexible 4" duct to my cyclone and mounts to the lathe on a track with an adjustable arm. I can move it wherever I need it and orient the hood however it works best. For sanding on the lathe I believe it collects virtually all the fine dust and, because the cyclone is HEPA it doesn't go back into the air. What does go back into the air is collected by the ceiling mounted air cleaner and, now probably better with the PM1250. This keeps almost all dust from significantly building up on the floors and tops.

If that all isn't enough I do own a powered mask which was recently upgraded to a HEPA version also.

I believe that woodworkers should do everything possible to avoid breathing dust. Over time it's a killer or at least degrades your lungs and nasal passages. There is a lot of evidence out there and I just don't feel that it's worth the chance I'll be lucky. I have spent a lot of money on dust collection over the years, but my shop remains as clean as possible and virtually free from the smallest dust particles which are the most harmful.

My advice is do whatever you can to keep all dust and particles from getting into your lungs but especially the smallest particles. The PM1250 can help do that but it isn't the total solution.
 
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I have one of these dust hoods for my miter saw, and attached to the 3 HP DC with 4" hose. I don't think this is an off the shelf solution for a lathe, but maybe it will spark an idea for someone else.


I can give some feedback on the performance with a miter saw. It does a decent job of collecting dust, but I have to say it's not 100% and that's with a machine that is tending to through dust towards the hood. You can see that some of the dust scatters forward and some of the dust cloud "bounces" back. While much of the dust is collected the 4" DC hose just doesn't move enough air to create the necessary air flow throughout the hood. But really, what would. Some of the dust collects on the inside surface of hood, and much of this can be jiggled and cajoled to fall into the hose before shutting down the DC. The rest just gets ignored until the occasional major shop cleaning. (If you're putting one on a miter saw I recommend the lighted model).
 

Randy Anderson

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Lots of good advice here and like many I've been through many iterations of dust collection setups in my shop. You can go full tilt on design and cost and still not solve the problem if not done right and, getting it right has a LOT of variables that depend on the shop setup, type of work, etc. The one thing I have done and settled on as a core part of the design is outside exhaust. I know it creates a number of other issues re temp and humidity control, noise for neighbors, etc but, even with two stage setup and filters you can see fine dust outside where it exhausts. At least it's not in the shop. My shop is open on both ends with large garage doors so when the weather is nice I open both and have a large fan that blows end to end. Not a wind tunnel but it moves a lot of fresh air from behind me out the back of the shop.
 
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I've been wading through LOTS of information about air filtration and dust collection, fans and static pressure, and all the other complicated stuff involved with engineering dust systems. It is way more complicated than you might imagine, and of course, so is matching the commercial solutions to your specific goals. So, let me ask this--would it be useful to this forum if I somehow summarized what my intended goals regarding dust collection motivated my initial post and what solutions I see as being reasonable based on this discussion and other research?
I have read through several "dust discussions" on various forums, and I have formed a framework in my head to understand dust management in the shop. It seems that there are two different goals often mashed together- dealing with shop debris and addressing air quality concerns. Yet, I don't think I have seen that kind of conceptual framework written out. Would taking the time to write that out be useful to anyone? Or is matching up dust collection solutions with control goals an obvious connection?
 
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I think it could be useful. Like you, I went through a whole ton of reading on best ways to set up shop dust collection, but in the end I found from experience, it boils down to what you have in your shop, the size of your shop, and any future expansion plans, and then attempt to match up what you'd like to have with what your budget is.. and after all that designing and planning, etc. my own dust collection set up turned out to be super simple, and it works very well for my little set-up, and my only real issue with it is because I am deaf I have to remember top turn off the dang dust collector motor, or it'll run all day doing nothing... I finally worked out a diagram and got the components to set up a switched relay to turn the DC on and off by way of parallel switches by each blast gate (and one spot by my table saw which is some ways from blast gate, and one spot by the exit door) and each spot will have a little L.E.D. wired into the system that turns on whenever the DC motor is on (hence, the one by the door at the other end of the shop) so I have a visual indicator when the dust collector is running (or at least the relay has it switched on) or not.

Long story short, seems to me that as a whole, each setup has to be based on your shop and what you'll be doing (and your layout) Only thing remaining that I want to address is the floating dust (worse in winter) and to that end, working on a filter box design (with a cheapo ventilation fan from harbor freight jury rigged to a home-built air box) that will mount on one wall in the main side of the shop (shop is basically 2 bays divided by a wall, with a 10 ft opening on the end between the 2 - overhead heater sits in the "off" bay and blows into the main side , so I figure with a fan to move air through the wall at the other sort-of enclosed end with a good filter (easily changed out) I can scrub the dust out of my shop air pretty well too.

As far as the engineering of dust systems, I finally realized after a ton of research that most of what you're finding on line is based on either A) industrial (Factory/ OSHA approved) systems, or B) content sponsored or created by folks looking to make money selling you higher-priced premium dust collection stuff (that you probably don't even really need) or C) folks looking to make advertising revenue from google search results by writing blog content (and/or clickbait ads) - The "real" stuff from real-world folks like you and me, rarely comes up in the first several pages of web search results (you'd have to already know where it is, and by then, odds are you've already spent your money on a bunch of stuff you realize later you didn't really need)
 
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My quick summary, after doing similar research: there are 2 paths 1) engineer industrial type machine collection systems and then size the dc system appropriately ($1,000’s), or 2) chip collection, not fine dust, and use a respirator to protect the lungs (my choice).

One of the issues with #1 is unless you have measurement capability you dont know how successful you are.
 
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So, let me ask this--would it be useful to this forum if I somehow summarized what my intended goals regarding dust collection motivated my initial post and what solutions I see as being reasonable based on this discussion and other research?
Yes, but in the context of the problems You are trying to solve and the compromises You are willing to accept.
 
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2) chip collection, not fine dust, and use a respirator to protect the lungs (my choice).
While I do use my outdoor shop (deck) with a large fan for wood turning, this is the solution for my indoor shop and flatwork (when I can't bring the tools outdoors to my deck bench. I especially use a repirator during and after any operations that create fines that linger. I use a jet 2.0 h.p. with a cyclone/thien baffle but I can run my finger over any surface after working and see the fines that aren't being captured. Finest of the fines are what I am trying to avoid. Yep... it's the invisible stuff that kills you.
 
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I started a thread here in June or July on an article I came across: “Dust Collection- The Clean Air Myth”
https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/woodworking-tips-1605may/dtew/dtew1.html
In the article, he describes his basement woodshop. He has a large cyclone dust collector with hoses linked to major equipment, plus a ceiling mounted dust filtration box. Even with all of that, he can wipe a finger along any wall and come up with dust. (This is similar to my situation)
Anyway, after visiting a cigar parlor with no noticeable smoke, he came up with the idea to add an “air purifier.” to run in concert with his existing system. These are small-ish units with a pre-filter, a HEPA filter, plus an activated charcoal filter. He claims this has solved his problem, no more dust residue. He is so happy that he is buying another unit for his first floor.

Read the whole article, I am just summarizing the main points.

My take-away is that you can get both HEPA filtration plus adequate cfm by buying multiple cheap units rather than one really large unit. The Rabbit Air model that the article refers to is not that cheap but I found other similar units with good reviews at the YouTube page by Consumer Analysis. It's been 6 months since I read the article and I still haven't done anything. One issue is that I decided that getting a good air quality (particulate) meter was important before doing anything else, and I got stymied on trying to pick one.
 
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I started a thread here in June or July on an article I came across: “Dust Collection- The Clean Air Myth”
https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/woodworking-tips-1605may/dtew/dtew1.html
Read the same article some time ago. IMO you are on the right track to get a meter 1st to measure the outcome of whatever you try. As for the super air filters, they do not protect you while creating the dust, but will clear the shop air when you stop creating dust. The dust still has to travel through the air that you are breathing to get to the filter.
 
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