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Working with green wood

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The crack close to the rim looks like it's old and existed pre-turning; I'm less sure about the ones near the foot but I'm leaning that way for those also. A week, wrapped up like you had it, would not have been enough time to dry that quickly to result in new cracks. If they were existing there's nothing you could have done.
I've had ash bowls in shavings in a paper bag split at the rim within 3 days. Although I'm pretty sure ash cracks when I look at it the wrong way.
 

hockenbery

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I've had ash bowls in shavings in a paper bag split at the rim within 3 days. Although I'm pretty sure ash cracks when I look at it the wrong way.

When bowl cracks it is usually related to part of the bowl drying too quickly and not being able to warp because another part of the bowl won’t move with it.
A few bowls <5% will crack when you do everything right.
A bowl with a nice curve and even walls will rarely crack when dried slowly.

Analyze the cracked bowl. Are the walls even? Are the curves nice.

I don’t put shaving in the bag with a bowl - wet shavings increase the chance of mold and dry shavings will take water out of the bowl too fast.

Paper bags create a humidity chamber to slow the drying. The end grain which wants to dry quicker gets moisture from the long grain.

The bags cannot be where there is a lot of air movement or they will transport the moisture out of the bag too fast and dry the bowl too quickly.

I also wash the bowl off in the sink and towel dry before going into the bag.
This rehydrates the endgrain that may have dried out on the lathe and reduces rhe chances of mold.

I swap the damp paper bags for dry ones every day for the first week to prevent mold and inspect for mold,
If there is mold. If I see any mold I wipe the bowl with Clorox.
After 5-7 days I leave the bowls in the bags for 4-5 months.
Then out of the bags and on a shelf for 2 months then at about 8 months I might get a moisture meter reading below 10%. My drying room has a dehumidifier that keeps the room 50% Humidity.
 
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I'm currently experimenting to find the best way for where I am and the different woods I can get. In a bag, in a bag with shavings, seal end grain and stick in a shelf. I've definitely found the shavings cause mold.
I'm also trying to find a good way to store them. My shop is only 12 x 20, so not a ton of space for storage, will have to come up with some creative storage spaces in there.
 

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I agree with AI's comment that shavings in the bag are not a good thing. They either lead to molding or behave as a desiccant and increase the chance of cracking.

I prefer to use Anchorseal ... It is quick and easy to apply ... It works perfectly in my climate ... and my club buys it in bulk and then sells it to the members for $10 a gallon.
 
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Russell,
Our climate is probably somewhat similar to yours. We're in the mountains and I believe you're in the prairie (?with pothole lakes), but we get some pacific weather effects and you're colder and continental in the winter, probably. Anyway...

I wax the outside of roughed bowls, place in a closed paper grocery bag, and place on a ventilated shelf (metal or plastic with a grid rather than a solid shelf) open side of bowl in bag down. Usually 2 bowls to a bag unless small and then there might be 4-5 in the bag. This is in my basement with an ambient temp, year round, of about 65 degrees. After 5 months, I take out and place on the shelf outside the bag for a month or two, then flip upright and stack for later use.

My good friend takes a paper leaf bag sold at hardware stores and fills it with roughed blanks, maybe 15 give or take, usually not waxed, folds the top and lets them sit on the floor of his basement until he's ready for them. Generally 6 months or so.

If you're short on storage space in your shop, you might find an even better place for storing until dry out in the garage or a shed, or in the basement. Some place out of the artificial heat, anyway. Our living area indoor winter humidity is in the teens and would probably dry the blanks too fast.

There are a great many ways to slowly dry the blanks and you'll figure out your own favorite method in time.
 
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The crack close to the rim looks like it's old and existed pre-turning; I'm less sure about the ones near the foot but I'm leaning that way for those also. A week, wrapped up like you had it, would not have been enough time to dry that quickly to result in new cracks. If they were existing there's nothing you could have done.

The weight of the bowl, kept in a cardboard box in the house (no central heating now, and now out of the box) has levelled out. The cracks have opened 'nicely'! (I can see clear through a couple.)
It's at about 14% moisture content. The plan's to fill the cracks with crystal clear resin. If I fill now, without the heating in the house being on, will the resin cause problems when it dries further? (I'm sure it's best to wait til it's as dry as it'll get in the winter (it might reach 10% in my house), but can't see it'll get much drier before then.)
Thanks for any thoughts!
_MG_8466.jpg _MG_8472.jpg
 
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If I fill now, without the heating in the house being on, will the resin cause problems when it dries further? (I'm sure it's best to wait til it's as dry as it'll get in the winter (it might reach 10% in my house), but can't see it'll get much drier before then.)

Yep to what Bill and Gerald, and you, said -- best to wait. I'd imagine by mid-summer you'd be good to use the epoxy. Epoxy is pretty flexible and if you fill now it will certainly turn into shallowed channels if the cracks open further. If you weigh the bowl on a scale measuring in 1/10ths of grams, it would be pretty obvious when the water loss slows down. I'd wait until the variation from week to week is minimal.
 
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Thanks fellas, that's a great help. In future, I'll be avoiding splitty wood for green turning unless it's splits I'm looking for.
I'd imagine by mid-summer you'd be good to use the epoxy.
Maybe you can help me sort this in my mind. To my understanding (just from what I've read), in winter humidity in the air is low, and the heating in the house is on - great final drying conditions. In summer, the air's warm and moist (here anyway - Wales, UK) and no heating, so wood in the house won't get as dry as it will in winter. Is that correct? (I realise in the US you have hugely varying climates so things could be very different.) If that's correct, this bowl will have to wait til winter til it's as dry as it's going to get? Happy to do that, but it's one to remember for future reference - avoid turning splitty green woods in Spring?! If I can get into green turning it'll be great - my workshop's in a tree surgeon's yard, and my hope is to get a regular turnover of bowls drying as I'm producing more (if that makes sense).
 

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Thanks fellas, that's a great help. In future, I'll be avoiding splitty wood for green turning unless it's splits I'm looking for.

Maybe you can help me sort this in my mind. To my understanding (just from what I've read), in winter humidity in the air is low, and the heating in the house is on - great final drying conditions. In summer, the air's warm and moist (here anyway - Wales, UK) and no heating, so wood in the house won't get as dry as it will in winter. Is that correct? (I realise in the US you have hugely varying climates so things could be very different.) If that's correct, this bowl will have to wait til winter til it's as dry as it's going to get? Happy to do that, but it's one to remember for future reference - avoid turning splitty green woods in Spring?! If I can get into green turning it'll be great - my workshop's in a tree surgeon's yard, and my hope is to get a regular turnover of bowls drying as I'm producing more (if that makes sense).

Cold air can't hold as much moisture as warm air. When cold air reaches as much moisture as it can hold it is saturated and the atmosphere becomes cloudy and might lead to rain.

The term relative humidity means the percentage of moisture in the air relative to the saturation content at a stated temperature. So, 50% relative humidity on a very cold day is drier than 50% relative humidity on a very hot day. In fact, 55% relative humidity on a very cold day is drier than 45% relative humidity on a very hot day. This leads us to a term called absolute humidity measured in grams per cubic meter. On a cold winter day when you heat the air in your home the amount of moisture per cubic meter indoors is the same as it is outdoors even though the relative humidity indoors is much lower. All of this discussion is to say that absolute humidity is what determines the dryness of the wood.

All of this information about moisture aside, your bowl is relatively thin and should be dry enough that it is stable in two or three months.
 

hockenbery

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in winter humidity in the air is low, and the heating in the house is on - great final drying conditions. In summer, the air's warm and moist (here anyway - Wales, UK) and no heating, so wood in the house won't get as dry as it will in winter. Is that correct?

True.. if you want to get more precise. Digital thermometer/hydro meters are really cheap. Just saw a 4 pack for $12. For $3 you can know the MC of dried wood for your environment.
The importance of drying a bowl to 8-10% MC is that most climate controlled homes target 50% for the RH
Adding moisture in winter removing it in summer.

The table below will tell you the moisture content of wood reaching equilibrium in a particular environment.
C9AD0E48-39DF-49D1-9E48-9C6F099CEA21.jpeg
 
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Thanks fellas, that's a great help. In future, I'll be avoiding splitty wood for green turning unless it's splits I'm looking for.

Maybe you can help me sort this in my mind. To my understanding (just from what I've read), in winter humidity in the air is low, and the heating in the house is on - great final drying conditions. In summer, the air's warm and moist (here anyway - Wales, UK) and no heating, so wood in the house won't get as dry as it will in winter. Is that correct? (I realise in the US you have hugely varying climates so things could be very different.) If that's correct, this bowl will have to wait til winter til it's as dry as it's going to get? Happy to do that, but it's one to remember for future reference - avoid turning splitty green woods in Spring?! If I can get into green turning it'll be great - my workshop's in a tree surgeon's yard, and my hope is to get a regular turnover of bowls drying as I'm producing more (if that makes sense).


Another thing to remember is that "wood moves". No matter how old or how dry the climate is when you have changes in season or weather the wood will move , it is just a characteristic of the medium we use. So the advise we are all giving is get the wood as dry as your working conditions allow and live with the minor movement you will get. Do not try for "perfect dry", not gonna happen. Attaching other items a turning brings in a whole other set of conditions to deal with.
 
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OK, got it - get it as dry as I can now, then it'll be within the usual annual fluctuation in moisture content that it's going to have to live within from year to year anyway.
Thanks all!
C
 
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I was expecting some questions from newer turners
And more additional experiences that others have.

I love turning green wood.
I don't have any experience with mesquite. May try to change that.

I appreciate the compliments too.

Al
I just went through your presentation document and read through many of the comments. You have covered just about everything and I like your preference for "crack prevention" versus "stabilization", because I have seen where many new turners think stable means that a dry finished turning will not expand and contract with changing humidity.
 

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You have covered just about everything and I like your preference for "crack prevention" versus "stabilization", because I have seen where many new turners think stable means that a dry finished turning will not expand and contract with changing humidity.

Thanks for the kind words.
You are so right about wood moving as it dries and continuing to move with changes in humidity.

I get asked all the time “how do you keep it from warping”
My answer is “I plan on it warping and I can calculate the limits of the warp if I need to.”

Fortunately a turning from a single piece of wood won’t change shape noticeably once it has dried to around 8% MC.
In Constructed pieces changes in MC can cause joints to fail or become an unwanted texture.
 
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Speaking of green wood, I picked up an old mesquite branch that was sitting alongside an oilfield lease road on the way to one of my rigs the other day. It had a couple cracks, but looked like it had been there a while. Thought I could maybe get a pen blank out of it. Just started cutting off the bad stuff this evening and was left with a decent size piece, maybe 1 3/4" squared and 8" long. I also noticed after squaring it up, it had some green spots on it. Put the moisture meter to it and it red lighted me at 15%. Wow, I would have thought this thing was almost dead. Lol So it will sit on a shelf for a while anyway.
 
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Quote from Hockenbery: (Fortunately a turning from a single piece of wood won’t change shape noticeably once it has dried to around 8% MC). This is true for most turned objects if made to the standards you set forth but the thing that got me going on this came up in another thread concerning threading wood. The point made is that wood threads should be coarser then the currently sold chasing or threading jigs and have more clearance to accommodate the the movement caused by changes in MC.
 
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Speaking of green wood, I picked up an old mesquite branch that was sitting alongside an oilfield lease road on the way to one of my rigs the other day. It had a couple cracks, but looked like it had been there a while. Thought I could maybe get a pen blank out of it. Just started cutting off the bad stuff this evening and was left with a decent size piece, maybe 1 3/4" squared and 8" long. I also noticed after squaring it up, it had some green spots on it. Put the moisture meter to it and it red lighted me at 15%. Wow, I would have thought this thing was almost dead. Lol So it will sit on a shelf for a while anyway.

Wet mesquite is great for turning. Turn mesquite wet if you like, Mesquite hardly moves or warps. I love turning mesquite.
 
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Wet mesquite is great for turning. Turn mesquite wet if you like, Mesquite hardly moves or warps. I love turning mesquite.

That's good to know. Thanks Fadi! I wasn't planning on turning it right now anyway. But at least now I know it won't be a problem when I decide to. I haven't done much turning lately, too busy at work. But I just started up some kitchen tools for the mom and sis for Christmas. It actually feels pretty good to get back on the lathe again!
 

hockenbery

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Quote from Hockenbery: (Fortunately a turning from a single piece of wood won’t change shape noticeably once it has dried to around 8% MC). This is true for most turned objects if made to the standards you set forth but the thing that got me going on this came up in another thread concerning threading wood. The point made is that wood threads should be coarser then the currently sold chasing or threading jigs and have more clearance to accommodate the the movement caused by changes in MC.
Let’s include threaded joints under constructed.
 
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{Wood is going to move so turn it with a shape and thickness that lets it move.
Practice practice practice turn turn turn.
Wood grows on trees}
The above quote from Hockenberry sums up everything a turner needs to know for success but I would like to add to that "don't think you can dry a large piece of wood before turning.
 
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I think I will go with the crack prevention.

Sort of difference in using the slides as talking points versus making them readable by those not present.

Got to concentrate on that a bit more...

Thanks.



A friend dropped these off yesterday, they're maple, and about 16/17" dia. I'm not knowledgeable enough to do much with these right now. I've watched your green bowl turning videos a few times, but never have turned a green bowl yet...... Id hate to see them go to ruin. any suggestions on how to buy some time with these, say a couple weeks or so?...Thanks.
 

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I'm relatively new to bowl turning but have been a spindle turner for years. I've had a lot of luck drying my first turnings in a 5 gallon bucket of silica gel. After 4 days in the gel they are ready for their second turning and I get very little, to no cracking. The gel can be rejuvenated in the oven.
 
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I’m new at turning—6 months—and know what QR codes are, but I don’t understand grain balancing. I’ve been turning fairly fresh Norfolk pine (end grain sealed) soaked a few days in 50% dishwashing liquid per Ron Kent and still get a few cracks—end grain bowls. But I’ve got other wood and need to understand grain balancing. Is it just symmetry in setting up the blank?
 
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Alan, the soap soaking is for making the wood easier to sand out. All the pine trees tend to have a lot of resin in them, and that will clog up your abrasives. It does nothing that I could ever tell to keep the wood from cracking. To prevent cracks, round over all edges, especially on the rim. Have an even wall thickness. I use the stretch plastic film over the rim to provide a bit of compression and to slow the drying at the rim, which is the area must likely to crack. Knots also tend to start cracks. Haven't turned the Norfolk Island Pine though....

robo hippy
 
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Alan, the soap soaking is for making the wood easier to sand out. All the pine trees tend to have a lot of resin in them, and that will clog up your abrasives. It does nothing that I could ever tell to keep the wood from cracking. To prevent cracks, round over all edges, especially on the rim. Have an even wall thickness. I use the stretch plastic film over the rim to provide a bit of compression and to slow the drying at the rim, which is the area must likely to crack. Knots also tend to start cracks. Haven't turned the Norfolk Island Pine though....

robo hippy
Thanks for answering. Here’s where I got the idea of soaking green wood pre-turning. From www.ronkent.com:
“The liquid I tried and now find so useful is...are you ready for this?....concentrated dishwashing detergent: Costco’s Kirkland brand sells for about $7.00/gallon in Hawaii, quite possibly less in other parts of the country. ( My guess is that this is their private label on a similar product with familiar major brand name, and that many or most other brands will deliver the same results.)
What are the benefits that I find? First there is the advantage of stabilizing the wood; a great deal less "moving" and warping both while working on the vessel and after it is taken off the lathe. A second favorable difference shows up in cutting. The shavings are a delight! Clean, long, cohesive ribbons, both for fine trimming and for the macho adversarial plunge-cuts that characterize my favored rough-shaping "technique". It feels almost as if the wood has been lubricated and allows the edge of the tool to slide smoothly through the cut. I never did figure out what "conditioning" means, but whatever it is, I’ll bet detergent does it!
Ah, and on the rare (Hah!!) occasions when I resort to using sandpaper....it is a whole new sanding experience. For one thing it allows sanding work that not only is green, but even wood that is soaking wet. The sandpaper still becomes clogged, mind you, but a couple sharp slaps on the bed of the lathe clears the grit and allows reuse again and again.
And with dry wood...well. you have to try that to see for yourself. The closest I can come to describing the difference is to compare it to certain special woods (ebony comes to mind) where the dust seems to be tiny beads rather than that with which we are more familiar. Again the sense of lubrication.

Technique​

Now back to my story. Though the experimentation never ends, I currently use a dilution ratio of one part water to one part concentrated detergent. (I’ve also tried diluting with isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol and suspect I get better penetration, but am not sure it justifies the added expense.) Even after this dilution the result is a viscous, syrup-like liquid, leaving me to suspect that further dilution would heighten the economy without losing effectiveness. I vary the proportion each time I mix it, still seeking an optimum ratio.
I do, however, regularly add eucalyptus oil to the mix. It is available at most drug-stores; I use about one teaspoon per gallon. What does this add to the process? A distinctive, pungent scent It just smells good!

Green wood​

All of my work is on logs that I get from local tree-trimmers. They bring it to me as soon as the tree is cut, and I’m likely to start turning it the very next day. The wood at this stage is not only green, it is soaking wet! I strip the bark, mount the log, and rough-turn the shape to about one inch thick. (Attention NASA Engineers: Please read as 2.54 cm.). I remove the work from the lathe and slather on a thick coat of the mix., wait a few minutes for the foam to soak in, then repeat. Maybe as many as a half- dozen times, inside and out.
I haven’t...yet...adapted detergent to my old "trick" of total immersion. (For many years I have used an open vat of Varathane...75 gallons of the stuff...for multiple immersion of completed turnings ). A detergent" pre-soak"----at an early stage of turning---seems the logical next experiment to try. I’m planning a five-gallon tub for starters. (I also have begun experimenting with the mix as a "sealer" on end-grain of cut logs, waiting in my wood-pile. I suspect it will decrease splitting and checking. As for other woods...woods not as porous as Norfolk Pine...well, I’d be very interested in hearing from you if you find out.)
After the soak – by what-ever means – I set the work aside for a few days to allow detergent to permeate the wood, and become surface-dry.
Before I started using detergent this was a chancy thing to do. When I was lucky the vessel-to-be only warped. I wasn’t always lucky. There was a definite risk of losing the work altogether due to checking and cracking. With this new technique my experience to date has been minimal "moving" and zero checking .
At this point I re-mount the workpiece and proceed using the usual tools and procedures, enjoying the benefits to cutting and sanding described earlier.

Dry wood​

I use the same procedure on logs that have dried out standing in the wood-pile, and I find the benefits are even more marked. Norfolk Pine dries and spalts very rapidly in Hawaii’s humid climate. Spalting typically starts within a month of the tree’s cutting. By the fourth month the wood is almost completely black. Though there still is considerable moisture in the log, the wood acts as if it were dry. It is significantly more difficult to cut smoothly, and it is easily subject to bruising and tearout. This dark-and-dry wood drinks up detergent like a camel in the desert, but the overall process differs mainly in quantity. My goal is to penetrate...permeate...the wood with liquid detergent. Sometimes I start working the piece right after the soaking, before the detergent has even had a chance to dry. More often, though, I will subject the rought-turned form to repeated soakings over a period of days, then allow up to two weeks of standing before I finish the piece. Did I mentioned "conditioning" and "stabilizing? Let me now add another word of description: This wood acts as if it has been rejuvinated.

Effect on Finish​

I told you about trying acrylic wax and rejecting it because of its effect on the final finishing process. Detergent, on the other hand, seems to actually enhance my own particular technique. Remember: my finishing process consists of multiple cycles of soak, oil-sand, and dry. The detergent-treated vessel is fully receptive to absorbtion of the oil. It is difficult for me to be certain, but it seems to me that I am achieving even more dramatic translucence from the oils when using wood that was treated with detergent during forming of the vessel. How will detergent affect other finishing techniques on other woods? I haven’t tried it, so I do not know, but my strong expectation is that, once dry, the detergent-treated wood will accept any of our standard, traditional finishes and that it might greatly improve cohesion of the new water-based products.”
 

hockenbery

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I don’t understand grain balancing.

simple grain balancing is that the same growth ring will be equal distances from the rim of a bowl when measured on opposite sides. Easy to see with sap wood it will have a symmetry
When the rim is toward the bark the grain will form rings or oval around the center.
When the bottom is towards the bark the grain will form hyperbolas centered on the bottom

With your NIP you may be trying to line the knots up so that all are in a line around the bowl.
Unfortunately mathematics says you can only line up 3. But usually lining up the lowest, highest and the one closest to the middle gets you closest.

These two photos show how to line up the cambian layer growth.

When these bowls were on the lathe they were started between centers. To align the rims the axis are positioned vertical and horizontal. When the tailstock is released the vertical axis can be rotated to vertical. Then the bowl is rotated 90 degrees so that the vertical axis becomes the horizontal and the new vertical axis can be rotated to vertical. When done with care the horizontal points move together. So every thing lines up.

IMG_0255.jpeg IMG_0256.jpeg
 
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simple grain balancing is that the same growth ring will be equal distances from the rim of a bowl when measured on opposite sides. Easy to see with sap wood it will have a symmetry
When the rim is toward the bark the grain will form rings or oval around the center.
When the bottom is towards the bark the grain will form hyperbolas centered on the bottom

With your NIP you may be trying to line the knots up so that all are in a line around the bowl.
Unfortunately mathematics says you can only line up 3. But usually lining up the lowest, highest and the one closest to the middle gets you closest.

These two photos show how to line up the cambian layer growth.

When these bowls were on the lathe they were started between centers. To align the rims the axis are positioned vertical and horizontal. When the tailstock is released the vertical axis can be rotated to vertical. Then the bowl is rotated 90 degrees so that the vertical axis becomes the horizontal and the new vertical axis can be rotated to vertical. When done with care the horizontal points move together. So every thing lines up.

View attachment 53809 View attachment 53810
Thanks for taking the time to explain.
 
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Well, with my once turned bowls, the LDD soak did nothing to stop the madrone I turn form warping. No stabilizing, nothing, other than it did bring out the red color in the madrone better than if I just air dried it. No clue as to what it would do with a twice turned bowl.

robo hippy
 
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Well, with my once turned bowls, the LDD soak did nothing to stop the madrone I turn form warping. No stabilizing, nothing, other than it did bring out the red color in the madrone better than if I just air dried it. No clue as to what it would do with a twice turned bowl.

robo hippy
In Ron Kent’s discussion, he mentions he hadn’t tried it on other woods and wanted others to report—so I guess we can cross that wood off the list for soaking in LDD.
 
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Location
Eugene, OR
I tried an experiment once when the alcohol soak was a big thing. That is not mentioned as much as it used to be. I took 2 madrone bowls about the same size and did the LDD and DNA soaks and then let them dry. No difference at all, other than the DNA one was more difficult to sand out. No clue as to what would happen if I tried it with a twice turned bowl.

robo hippy
 
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