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Spindle runout problem

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May 25, 2010
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Hi all,

I'm fairly convinced I have a runout problem on my Laguna 1836, and assuming(?) it is a bearing issue, but I realize other causes are possible as well (bent spindle?)

The dial indicator has been ordered and is on its way, but visually, if I thread a chuck on the lathe and turn it on, there is a definite pronounced wobble. If I use a center, I there is a visible vibration in the tip - at least until I turn up to fairly high speed when the vibrations all blend together. :)

The only thing I can think of that might have caused this was that I recently chucked up a relatively large blank that was a bit out of balance, enough so that the chuck unwound a quarter turn or so each time I turned off the lathe.

I'll plan to call Laguna once I have some actual numbers to report, but I know the expertise on this forum is far higher than what I'm likely to find on the other end of the phone call. I've seen a lot of good information on this site, especially here. I'll post the runout numbers and some pictures here as well once I get them.

A couple of other questions, though -- how big of a deal is it to replace the bearings (or worse, if necessary)? Is there a manual somewhere that explains the process? (It's obviously not in the user guide that came with the lathe.) I'm relatively "mechanically competent" but I don't want to just start removing parts without a plan.

Otherwise, I've been loving the lathe, but something's just not right.

Thanks,

Dan
 

odie

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Panning for Montana gold, with Betsy, the mule!
A couple of other questions, though -- how big of a deal is it to replace the bearings (or worse, if necessary)? Is there a manual somewhere that explains the process? (It's obviously not in the user guide that came with the lathe.) I'm relatively "mechanically competent" but I don't want to just start removing parts without a plan.

Dan......I was lucky to find information about bearing replacement on my Woodfast lathe online.....by someone who had done it. You might want to run a search and see if likewise information is available for your Laguna lathe. Just because there is runout, it doesn't mean your bearings are worn. Like you said, it could mean your spindle isn't absolutely straight......either slightly bent, or manufactured that way. You can get away with a couple thousands of runout, and it will never be enough to be problematic for woodturning purposes. The trick is to minimize the re-mounts to as few as possible.

If you take a long lever and wedge it against your spindle (not against the bare threads), you can easily apply pressure and test to see if there is any play in your bearings. There was play in my original bearings, and they needed replacement after about 20 years of use. (Those who turn a lot of out-of-balance work will probably wear out their bearings faster than I did.) I believe I used a long crowbar for doing this test for play in the bearings. Try this at several points in the rotation of the spindle.

Oh, by the way......when you get your dial indicator, you want to place it as far out on the spindle as possible, so that any runout is larger at a point furthest from the bearings. Here there are threads, so the best place to check is within the morse taper opening........

Another thing to consider, if you do replace the bearings, is to order two sets of bearings and two drive belts........that way, you have a spare set ready to go, at some point in the future! ;)

Good luck........:D

-----odie-----
 
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I had the same problem with my Laguna 1836, a pronounced wobble especially when using a chuck. Suspected cause was off center turning or something stupid on my part but I'm not sure. Lived with this for a while but finally called Laguna. They were helpful and I ordered new spindle assembly, $170 and $20 for shipping. Had to wait almost a month for it to arrive, and needed to call/email repeatedly to find out shipping status. Installing the spindle took me about 2 hours and is not too difficult. There is a YouTube video on subject. Process involves loosing bolts and set screws to slide off pulley, bearings, and spindle lock ring. The new spindle solved the runout problem and I'm going to very careful in future work knowing that the spindle can be deformed.
 
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Thank you all, I will definitely check this out! The lathe is only about a year old, so it seems especially early for normal wear and tear on the parts.

Feeling a lot more optimistic after reading these responses. These things cost too much to have runout like this.

And as an aside, I am always impressed with how little time passes before responses start rolling in. Much appreciated.

Looking forward to getting this fixed...

Dan
 
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The bearings are pre-loaded. You can remove the rear spindle (indexing) cover and find a locking collar. Take the motor tension off the belt and loosen the hex screw in the locking collar. The collar will probably turn off by hand. The rear bearing is exposed and is not a pressed fit. Behind the bearing is a wave washer for the preload. You can inspect the rear bearing and make sure the seals aren't leaking grease. The adjustment for the preload is to turn the locking collar hand tight and you can feel the tension as the wave washer starts to engage. Only hand tighten the collar and then tighten the hex screw to lock the collar. Line up the rear cover with the indexing numbers and tighten the screws. This may not solve the problem but is the final adjustment on installing a new spindle shaft. The video you were directed to shows her using channel lock pliers to tighten the preload collar and is incorrect. If you have to take out the spindle you may as well install a new belt at this time also. If you have any questions PM me and I'll give you my phone #. I did lots of research and have done the spindle and bearing replacement. My problem was the rear bearing had a leaking seal and it doesn't take long for the bearing to go out after it loses grease. Good luck.
On a large blank, you need to use the spindle locking screws to stop the chuck from coming loose. I tighten my chucks with any size wood and kill the stop switch just to have this as part of my startup procedure.
 
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Quote from a bearing company:
"The purpose of preload in a bearing system is to eliminate clearance that is designed into standard ball bearings. Almost all radial ball bearings are made with a clearance or space between their components to allow for free movement. This space, if not taken up by a preload can allow the rolling elements to slide rather than roll, or even allow for races to misalign."
As I understand the wave washer will maintain this load to a certain extent as the bearing wears.
 
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I have a delta and had to replace my bearings cause I could grap it and move it up and down by hand just took them out took them to the local bearing house and got new ones while I had it out had the spindle shaft checked at a machine shop to make sure it wasnt that put it back together works like a champ and like above I watched Kim do hers also its about the same real simple to do if your mechanicly inclined or you can take it to your local machine shop and they can fix it right up for ya.
 
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Sometimes it's just the way things are.
A fleet of trucks, all the same model, cost, and same rear axle bearings. Truck # 1 axle bearing goes out at 4000 miles, truck #10 axle bearing goes out at 400,000 miles.
 

Bill Boehme

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Hi all,

I'm fairly convinced I have a runout problem on my Laguna 1836, and assuming(?) it is a bearing issue, but I realize other causes are possible as well (bent spindle?)

The dial indicator has been ordered and is on its way, but visually, if I thread a chuck on the lathe and turn it on, there is a definite pronounced wobble. If I use a center, I there is a visible vibration in the tip - at least until I turn up to fairly high speed when the vibrations all blend together. :)

The only thing I can think of that might have caused this was that I recently chucked up a relatively large blank that was a bit out of balance, enough so that the chuck unwound a quarter turn or so each time I turned off the lathe.

I'll plan to call Laguna once I have some actual numbers to report, but I know the expertise on this forum is far higher than what I'm likely to find on the other end of the phone call. I've seen a lot of good information on this site, especially here. I'll post the runout numbers and some pictures here as well once I get them.

A couple of other questions, though -- how big of a deal is it to replace the bearings (or worse, if necessary)? Is there a manual somewhere that explains the process? (It's obviously not in the user guide that came with the lathe.) I'm relatively "mechanically competent" but I don't want to just start removing parts without a plan.

Otherwise, I've been loving the lathe, but something's just not right.

Thanks,

Dan

I seriously doubt that there is a bearing problem. If the bearings were worn out or if there were insufficient preload then you could verify that by removing the belt and then grab the nose of the spindle and wiggle it side to side. Even if the bearings needed to be replaced, the side load from the drive belt would take out any wobble.

The most likely cause of the problem is a warped spindle. My first lathe had a warped spindle. Delta sent me a new spindle along with new bearings and snap rings. Replacing the bearings usually is a straightforward job, but on this spindle it was basically impossible to remove the bearing closest to the nose of the spindle.

Preload is an axial load on the bearing to take out the free play.
 
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I seriously doubt that there is a bearing problem. If the bearings were worn out or if there were insufficient preload then you could verify that by removing the belt and then grab the nose of the spindle and wiggle it side to side. Even if the bearings needed to be replaced, the side load from the drive belt would take out any wobble.

The most likely cause of the problem is a warped spindle. My first lathe had a warped spindle. Delta sent me a new spindle along with new bearings and snap rings. Replacing the bearings usually is a straightforward job, but on this spindle it was basically impossible to remove the bearing closest to the nose of the spindle.

Hi Bill,

This rings true to me. (And again, it's thought provoking answers like these that inspire me to post. Hopefully this thread will one day help someone else as well.)

The dial indicator arrives today, so I'm curious what kind of numbers I get. It also occurred to me last night that I sprung for the "Rockler extended protection" when I bought the lathe. I've never bought an extended warranty on anything before, but this one supposedly covered user-inflicted damage on getting it into the house (I knew I would be carrying it down stairs and into the basement myself so I wanted the extra piece of mind.) If I'm reading the policy right, it also covers labor on covered repairs. I watched the Kim Tippin video referenced above so I know I *could* do the repair myself, but why not see if they'll send someone to the house to do it for me? :)

Dan
 
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I agree with Bill. So far you are only seeing a combination. What part is the bad part, lathe, chuck, or drive center. With the indicator you will be able to measure just the lathe.
 
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A warped spindle coming out of the factory would indicate that they are not letting the spindle cool down prior to preforming the finishing cuts on the bearing surfaces. The rough turning process will usually heat up the metal work piece which can have an effect on the finished diameters of the piece and on occasion the piece can warp from internal stresses that change while the piece is cooling down. Best practice is to have a room temperature metal piece when making final finish cuts, when there is lack of quality control in the manufacturing process you end up with a larger numbers of issues like this.
 
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All that may be true, but in this case it wasn't (noticeably) warped coming out of the factory. The lathe is about a year old - still very new of course, but it wasn't acting like this until recently.

I'm not convinced this is solely a quality control issue. Not that different processes/designs couldn't have impacted the quality of course, but this wasn't a "lemon out of the box".
 
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A bearing failure and running an out of balance load for a long enough period of time could heat up and warp a spindle. Or a small amount of runout on a warped spindle can lead to bearing failure and overheating and causing more warpage of the spindle. Hard to say what caused the failure after it has occurred.
 
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Okay, mystery solved (???), although this has been a strange one.

I set up the dial indicator as recommended just inside of the spindle taper, as perpendicular as I could get it. Turned on the lathe and the dial was rock solid. Barely budged at all. Maybe 0.0001 at the most.

I put a drive center in, and lined up the dial plunger perpendicular to the point, and the thing started jumping, probably 9 or 10 thousandths. Tried every single one of my drive centers, and they were all the same.

I put a couple of chucks on (yes, one at a time :)), with the jaws fully closed, and the dial went nuts, Stopped it as quickly as I could.

Took off the spindle cover on the outboard side of the headstock. Everything inside was bone dry and tight. No play in the spindle when I tried to move it by hand. Started thinking there might be debris inside the spindle, so I got out my MT cleaner, but that came back out pretty clean.

I was scratching my head, trying to figure out what it could be. The spindle seemed fine, but there's no way *all* of my chucks and centers would be hugely off.

Then I noticed the threads on the outside of the spindle:20200209_171316.jpg


And I remembered thinking each time I threaded on a chuck or a faceplate recently "I thought this threaded on farther."

To test it, I took a chuck and deliberately only threaded it 3/4 of the way on, then turned on the lathe at a slow speed. Rock solid. Threaded it the rest of the way, and the wobble started. Mystery solved... I think. This must have happened when I had a large blank on the lathe, stopped the lathe, and the chuck unwound just enough to be off-balance and crush the threads.

At first, I was thinking I could just grind off the last thread. But while that might work to clean up the chuck behavior, it wouldn't explain the runout of the drive centers. So, I'm assuming something got dented internally too, to prevent a center from seating properly.

I guess a new spindle is in the cards for me. My next question will be to see if this counts for the "accidental damage protection" I have in the extended warranty.

Argh.
 

Bill Boehme

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It looks like you might possibly have unscrewed a chuck without first sufficiently backing out the setscrews. You could use a triangular file to clean up the damaged threads. Also, shine a light into the Morse taper socket to see if there are any "rings". The rings would be galling caused by a drive center slipping. If there is any galling you will probably also be able to feel it with a finger. Galling can be repaired using a Morse taper hand reamer in the spindle socket. It's very likely that one or more of your drive centers will have matching galling. If you put a damaged drive center into your repaired Morse taper socket it's very likely that you will be back at square one. Repairing galling on a drive center isn't easy, but you might be able to do it by carefully using silicon carbide sandpaper only on the damaged section. You could start with medium grit and work up to 1500 grit. The optimal solution would be to replace any damaged drive centers, but that's a hard pill to swallow for frugal woodturners.

One final thought ... don't use the dial indicator with the lathe running.
 
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I agree with everything Bill said especially checking the MT for galling. However it appears to me you have decided the spindle is the cause of the drive center wobble. I could be that or it could be the drive center. If you don’t have any runout at the end I can’t imagine the spindle is bent and not have runout. I would suspect either galling or a not so good drive center.
 
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If you have the proper sized threading die you can run it over the spindle threads to clean up the threads that are bent over. A machine shop could weld new metal where the threads are damaged and rethread the missing threads. Some spindles on some lathes in some instances will not readily thread all of the way onto a new chuck depending on the chuck manufacturer and the insert used in the chuck. If you run into that problem you need to make sure the chuck is seated against the flat face of the spindle, you can always place a machined washer to take up any space between the chuck and the spindle flat face if needed.
 
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It looks like you might possibly have unscrewed a chuck without first sufficiently backing out the setscrews. You could use a triangular file to clean up the damaged threads. Also, shine a light into the Morse taper socket to see if there are any "rings". The rings would be galling caused by a drive center slipping. If there is any galling you will probably also be able to feel it with a finger. Galling can be repaired using a Morse taper hand reamer in the spindle socket. It's very likely that one or more of your drive centers will have matching galling. If you put a damaged drive center into your repaired Morse taper socket it's very likely that you will be back at square one. Repairing galling on a drive center isn't easy, but you might be able to do it by carefully using silicon carbide sandpaper only on the damaged section. You could start with medium grit and work up to 1500 grit.

Bill,

Is there anything you haven't seen in this field? That's probably exactly what happened. Or more accurately, I probably didn't sufficiently tighten down the setscrews at first, and then as the chuck unwound after stopping the lathe, it probably dragged the screws into the threads. I'll try and get my hands on a proper sized threading die.

I did shine a light into the Morse taper socket this morning, and found nothing yet. With a finger, it felt perfectly smooth. Looked at all of my centers, and saw no abnormalities at all. Is it your opinion that the wobble caused by the damaged threads and the runout seen in the drive centers are two unrelated problems? Having never actually measured the drive center runout before, it's possible that's been there for longer than I've noticed.

The optimal solution would be to replace any damaged drive centers, but that's a hard pill to swallow for frugal woodturners.

At this point in my life, my time is far more valuable to me than the cost of some new drive centers. If I find a center that I know to be bad, it'll go in the trash pretty quickly.

One final thought ... don't use the dial indicator with the lathe running.
Message received, loud and clear. I had that thought last night as well.

I thought this was supposed to be "wood"working? I'm learning a lot more than I thought about metalwork in the process. And more importantly, about how to measure it.


Thanks again...

Dan
 
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Dan, I have had a not so good drive center, but in reality it doesn’t matter much for the turning you are doing with a drive center installed. Also I never have the set screw installed unless it is used mainly for very large turnings as they can vibrate and cause the problem you have experienced.
 
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I just wanted to give one more followup to this story.

I spoke with Brian Diaz at Laguna today. Even though it was pretty clear the crushed threads were my own fault, Brian offered to send me a new spindle assembly.

I know that not everyone has had the best experience with Laguna's customer service, but I want to give credit where credit is due. They really came through with flying colors and stood behind their product.
 
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I just wanted to give one more followup to this story.

I spoke with Brian Diaz at Laguna today. Even though it was pretty clear the crushed threads were my own fault, Brian offered to send me a new spindle assembly.

I know that not everyone has had the best experience with Laguna's customer service, but I want to give credit where credit is due. They really came through with flying colors and stood behind their product.
i am having the opposite problem with Rob S. keeps saying it is not Laguna's problem, but not suggesting anything that can help me with the wobble. my spindle has a small degree of deformity, and I will check it later [as you did]. My question: did the new spindle FIX the wobble??
 
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In my case, yes. Their shipping, on the other hand, left much to be desired. The spindle was poorly secured in the box and was poking out the side by the time it got to me!
 
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UPDATE: I went back to Woodcraft and talked to another laguna lathe person. He pointed out that is it possible to 'goober' up the threads on the headstock and that it is critical to 'seat' the faceplate squarely. This seemed to help and I turned a nice bowl yesterday. Today I contacted via email the COO of Laguna. I told him my story and suggested that those of us who buy products at the low end of their price range deserve good customer service as the high dollar folks.
Lets see if I get a response.
 
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He pointed out that is it possible to 'goober' up the threads on the headstock and that it is critical to 'seat' the faceplate squarely.
Is that the technical term? :)

I understand that a Laguna is not a Robust, and that you get what you pay for. But that still doesn't make it a small investment for most of us.
 
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from websters:
What is goober slang for?


goober. noun (2) Definition of goober (Entry 2 of 2) slang. : a naive, ignorant, or foolish person.

so an ignorant person who doesn't know how to tighten the screws on an attachment to the headstock can change this noun to a verb and 'goober' up the threads!
 
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