Hollow forms - getting started

[Elie Kochman]

I was just granted a small budget to add to my tool collection, and was thinking to add more hollow forms to my repertoire with the addition of 2 items - a Jacobs chuck to make bulk removal a lot easier, and some form of hollowing tool to refine the inside.
Now, I may well be going about this from the wrong direction (in which case - please point me in a better direction!), but having watched a number of vidoes on the making of vases and other hollow forms, it seems that going with carbide tools would be the way to go. Since my budget is really not that large, I'm looking to do this as economically as possible.
My question are:

1. What would be the minimal selection of tools needed - I was thinking a straight and swan necked tool, with square and round cutters (though I understand that this may be 2 tools, with 2 types of interchangeable cutters)?
2. What brand is most economical - i.e. not complete junk (as I've discovered the costly way with my gouges before upgrading them), but perfectly sufficient to the job? What brands should I be sure to steer clear from? What features are most important?

Thanks for any input and insight!

 

[hockenbery]

My suggestion is to take a class or get a mentor from a woodturning club.
Then you will know what tools you want.

I use A 1/2” twist drill bit 14” Long mounted in a turned wood handle for drilling to depth and making the pilot hole for hollowing. On some forms I use a 1” twist drill bit with a Morse taper that fits in tailstock. I avoid using any bits with a point that makes a hole in the bottom that needs to be turned away.

For hollowing I suggest a straight and a bent tool with a HSS cutter. Probably 1/2” thick steel to start. This diameter bar limits you to a depth of 7” or so - plenty big enough to start on.

I use the Trent Bosch tools. The John Jordan tools are similar in design.
Both will work well.
Both require a learning curve.

if you plan to learn on your own
Hollow some small bowls with the tools until you figure out how to use them with out getting catches before you try hollowing through a hole.
Work a little above center and Never let the tips point up they can point down a little.
These are scrapers and the bevel should not contact the wood.

 

[Bill Blasic]

If you are thinking carbide look at Hunter Tool Systems. These carbides cut not scrape. For hollow forms I use Hunter, John Jordan Hollowers and Kelton Hollowers. They can be used with handles but I prefer using a hollowing system. I know that most are expensive but they can be made by yourself quite reasonably. I like Hockenbery use a twist drill for setting depth. And I highly recommend his suggestion that you find a club and get a mentor!

 

[Mike Johnson]

If you are getting a Jacobs chuck, a set of Forstner bits comes in handy on many wood turning projects. For cheap carbide cutters, I have used a few of the Import tools available on eBay and Amazon for some of my sphere cutting tools I made and they work just fine. They have various shaped cutters and straight and curved steel shafts that fit into a quick change handle system. These are not the same quality as some of the domestic made tools, but the cost will get you into hollowing within your budget. You can always upgrade your tools later on when you find your favorite items to turn on the lathe. Decide what kind of projects you want to turn down the road and determine the tools you will need for those projects and look for deals that come up on used tools on Craigslist, eBay and Estate Sales.

 

[Elie Kochman]

Thanks for the great (and rapid) responses!
I've taken a turning course before, but have not yet worked with carbide scrapers/cutters. I don't belong to a local club at the moment - life is too busy to make the commitment at this point - but my local Lee Valley often has turning seminars, and I will definitely check them out to see if they have something coming up. In the meantime, YouTube plus practice will have to do - and yes, I don't plan on starting with undercutting and hollowing through a narrow hole until I have a lot more confidence in my technique!
For the Jacobs chuck, I already have forstner bits which I use with my drill press, and I've found that the chuck itself tends to run about $50 regardless of where I shop. It's good to know that with the carbide cutters, the cheaper imports aren't horrible - but also to know which brands are more popular as I do look to upgrade them. If I'm reading the comments correctly (and this is for anyone who may be reading this later and looking for a summation):

1. Straight and bent tool handle, 1/2 inch diameter;
2. Trent Bosch tools - https://trentboschtools.com/ ~$100 USD/tool, not including a handle
3. John Jordan tools - https://www.johnjordanwoodturning.com/ ~$80 USD/tool, not including a handle
4. Hunter tools - http://huntertoolsystems.com/ ~$60-100 CAD/tool, including a handle
5. Kelton tools - http://www.kelton.co.nz/ (available from Lee Valley and other retailers) ~$55 CAD/tool, not including a handle

You can get by with imports while learning the techniques and figure out which specific tools to upgrade.

On the brands listed above, Kelton seems the most economical, at $150 CAD for a set of 3, and you make your own handle (which as a woodturner - no surprise there!), followed by the Hunter tools.

As an added comment - I did the pricing info by looking at each manufacturer's site, and if I couldn't get usable information from there, went to an arbitrary retailer. I do not have any affiliation with any of the sites/brands/retailers named above.

 

[Michael Nathal]

Be careful when comparing prices. The 3/4 inch diameter bars can be almost double the price of the 1/2 inch. I believe the Jordan tools you quote are for $80 for the large size. The 3/4 bars allow you to go deeper/bigger but they may be overkill if you have a small-ish lathe. The half inch bars are good to learn on, and you will always have a need for them even after you graduate to the larger sizes.

 

[Damon McLaughlin]

As others have mentioned I too use a twist drill bit. Forstner bits have a point on the bottom that leave a dimple in the bottom of the hole and you will have to turn it a way. A twist drill bit doesn't leave that small simple.

I use John Jordan's hollowing tools. I have all three sizes and find that the 1/2" is what I use most, for about 80% of my hollow forms. The high speed steel (HSS) tips are very easy to sharpen and hold their edge a long time.

If you go with carbide cutters keep in mind that those cutters can't be sharpened and will have to be replaced as you use them. Keep this in mind if you're on a restricted budget.

I'll agree with Hockenberry, if you can find a class on hollowing or a mentor to help with hollowing what you can learn in one session can be invaluable. There is no commitment to have to attend every meeting should you join a woodturning club, typically members go when they can/want. Most clubs will allow you to attend without joining right away so that you can see if the club is something you would enjoy. If you have a club nearby go to a meeting or two if time permits. If they have a web site watch their demonstration schedule and see if one comes up for hollowing. And if you end up liking the club and find it beneficial I'm sure they would love for you to join.

One word of caution, while there can be a lot of informative videos on youtube not all of the videos are done in a safe manner, with the right tools or with good techniques.

 

[Richard Coers]

A couple of observations. Very difficult to advise you about tools when we have no idea what lathe you have and what size hollow forms you intend to make. The recommendations to start with smaller diameter tools could either be spot on, or be ill advised if you intend to do some 12" deep forms. Drilling out waste with a Forstner bit can be a disaster with cheap Forstner bits, especially in wet wood. You will always need a Jacobs chuck, get that anyway. You intend to do all the hollowing free hand? That's a very difficult way to start. I strongly suggest you wait for a better budget and get a captured hollowing rig. Probably 2/3 less learning curve, and a lot less blown up forms since you can use a laser or camera system to watch wall thickness. An lastly, learning a major new skill as hollowing is ripe with danger by using Youtube. Of course there are skilled people doing it, but a LOT more unskilled who hope to become the next video sensation. If they start out, "Well hello Youtubers, please subscribe", I stop watching immediately! Most of these people are there for money and aren't necessarily skilled. Just my opinion, but at my age, I respect the ones that have earned their stripes. Not the ones that picked up a free bunch of tools because they have subscribers and blindly promote them as the only tool to use.

 

[Elie Kochman]

Be careful when comparing prices. The 3/4 inch diameter bars can be almost double the price of the 1/2 inch. I believe the Jordan tools you quote are for $80 for the large size. The 3/4 bars allow you to go deeper/bigger but they may be overkill if you have a small-ish lathe. The half inch bars are good to learn on, and you will always have a need for them even after you graduate to the larger sizes.

You are correct - I accidentally quoted for the large hollowing tools. A set of small hollowing tools would be $75 for the straight and hook tool pair.

 

[Elie Kochman]

A couple of observations. Very difficult to advise you about tools when we have no idea what lathe you have and what size hollow forms you intend to make. The recommendations to start with smaller diameter tools could either be spot on, or be ill advised if you intend to do some 12" deep forms. Drilling out waste with a Forstner bit can be a disaster with cheap Forstner bits, especially in wet wood. You will always need a Jacobs chuck, get that anyway. You intend to do all the hollowing free hand? That's a very difficult way to start. I strongly suggest you wait for a better budget and get a captured hollowing rig. Probably 2/3 less learning curve, and a lot less blown up forms since you can use a laser or camera system to watch wall thickness. An lastly, learning a major new skill as hollowing is ripe with danger by using Youtube. Of course there are skilled people doing it, but a LOT more unskilled who hope to become the next video sensation. If they start out, "Well hello Youtubers, please subscribe", I stop watching immediately! Most of these people are there for money and aren't necessarily skilled. Just my opinion, but at my age, I respect the ones that have earned their stripes. Not the ones that picked up a free bunch of tools because they have subscribers and blindly promote them as the only tool to use.

Thanks for the feedback!
I'm well aware of the dangers of learning willy-nilly from YouTube - I split my learning on YouTube into 2 categories: ideas for turnings I might be inspired by, and techniques I want to learn how to do (though the project in question may be something I don't actually care for). And finding good teachers in the second category can be difficult, but I find if I search the author to see where else they teach, and watch a video to confirm they do at least discuss technique and shortfalls of various approaches, I can usually eliminate a lot of the ill-advised noise.
My lathe is an old Beaver 3400 - it has served me well to-date, as it's forced me to focus on good technique, slow and careful cuts throughout the turning, and thinking through any potential problems before they come up. And while I understand your comment about saving for a hollowing system, I prefer to learn the hard way if I can, so that I actually understand what I'm doing in a hands-on manner. I'm not a production turner at all - I turn because I find it enjoyable, and am happy to spend the extra time because I have to work slower due to my tool limitations.
In terms of size of hollow-forms - I have no idea! So starting small (which I understand to mean 5-7 inch depth limit) works for me if it means I can get started learning sooner at a lower cost of entry, if I'm not teaching myself bad habits by doing so.

 

[Doug Freeman]

Regarding hand held vs captive/articulating systems - its not a matter of speed, its a matter of whether you want to have to maintain the focus required to hold/move the cutting edge in the proper orientation for several minutes at a time. Losing focus can result in a lost project or possibly personal injury. Its pretty monotonous hollowing by hand, which makes keeping focus more difficult. Just depends on the person I suppose.

Ive hollowed to about 8” hand held several times, lost a few nice projects and thankfully avoided injury. I decided it was well worth a few hundred $’s to get a system, and it was a very good decision for me. There are several plans available if you wish to make your own.

I still hollow smaller stuff, 3-4” deep and dia, by hand. I made all of my tools from mild steel bar stock and use carbide cutters. I mainly use 8.9 mm round cutters for them. You need a torch for bending, preferably a drill press, know how to drill and tap small holes, and a 4” hand grinder makes cutting and shaping the bars easier. I use 3/8 and 1/2” bar mostly since they are for shallow forms. Dont get hung up on “tool quality” for carbide tipped tools. As long as they are steel and shaped properly they will work. Unlike a gouge you aren’t using the steel to cut, only hold. Que eye roll, but for small forms, PSI Tools has a set of 3 tools for about $70 that I would use if I didnt make my own.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

U might look at your display area to see what u can display.....also a nice form with unusal figure or grain is often more desirable over something just on size.

Finnish.....to attract a crow or not

...

 

[GRJensen]

You might check out the Simple Hollowing System by Harrison Specialties ... https://www.harrisonspecialties.com/simple-hollowing-system/

I bought one several years ago, and have been very happy with it.

 

[Dean Center]

One thing that has been raised in the above responses that might not be completely clear is the option of a forstner bit vs. a twist drill bit.

With hollow forms, the purpose of the drill bit is to a) give you a reliable bottom depth b) remove some of the waste wood c) give you enough room to use your hollowing tool, and d) prevent ending up with a pernicious knob in the center of the bottom.

You can put a jacobs chuck on the tail stock side and drill with either a twist drill bit or a forstner bit. You can also drill the hole with a twist drill bit held in your hand, and save the cost of the jacobs chuck. A jacobs chuck is not a precision tool, so doing it by hand is not going to substantially reduce the quality of result.

To drill it by hand, put a handle on a standard or longer length drill bit, so you can get a reasonable grip on the tool. It's easier to control a smaller diameter by hand so you might want to have a set of drill bits 1/4", 3/8", maybe 1/2" (6 mm, 9 mm, 12 mm) so you can make the initial hole with the small one and increase the size of the hole in steps.

2) If you decide to go with the carbide tools you have described above, like the Easy Wood Tools, I don't believe you would need a square (or squarish) cutter to do the inside of a bowl or hollow form.

3) As you have discovered, there are a great many opinions about the tools and methods for making hollow forms. There isn't one right answer--it's a matter of personal experience and preference. Some day, you'll have enough experience to be highly opinionated on the subject, too. For now, feel OK about your choice, learn to use whatever you select to your best ability and have fun.

4) If you are actually thinking of end grain hollowing, to make vases, goblets, boxes and such, rather than true hollow forms made through small openings, you don't actually need hollowing tools. Until you get more than 4-5" deep, you can do the job with gouges and scrapers. The Hunter carbide tools are fantastic at end grain hollowing, but they're also fairly pricey. Since you have a budget, regular old gouges and scrapers are a fine way to go for now.

 

[Bill Blasic]

Elie I've look at your Instagram page, seen your lathe and how you use it and I understand how you turn. So I make this recommendation buy either the 1/2" small John Jordan Hollowers either 2 or 3 pc set (my first choice) or the Kelton small 1/2" 3 pc set. Why I say Jordans first is that they have a replaceable cutter. Usually clubs meet once a month and I'm sure the value you would learn in that couple hours each month would come back to you a hundred fold, truly think about a club.

 

[Elie Kochman]

Thanks for all the latest replies! The wealth of information here is awesome!
Based on all the various responses, it sounds like the small Jordan Hollowers is the way to go - at $75 for a set, that's a pretty good deal. That, plus a Jacobs Chuck (any kind of coring will be made easier with that addition - it's been a while coming) and a new area of turning will get opened.
Regarding joining a club - unfortunately, the closest club is well over an hour away from me, and while 2 hours drive a month isn't bad (except in the winter, when driving can be pretty nasty here in Toronto), life is so busy at the moment, I can't see making the commitment right now. I have reached out to other woodworkers closer to me to see if there's an option I haven't come across locally, but so far, no luck.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Elie,

You might check with a local arborist they may know of a woodturner in your area that you can network with for turning resources and collaboration.
The AAW site also has a map feature that shows members in your area code. There are plenty of other wood turners out there that are hiding amongst us.
Facebook or Craigslist may also provide leads to other turners in your area, network with these people and you will find all sorts of deals on tools, machines, materials and knowledge.

 

[Gary Beasley]

If there are other turners fairly close by it may be an opportunity to help start a local club. Calling a few to meet over coffee might get some enthusiasm going that will take off on its own. It may be as simple as a rotating meet at a members home each month to socialize and learn a bit from each other.

 

[Elie Kochman]

And that looks like where I'm at! There are several turners located within a 20 minute drive based on the AAW search, so I may be reaching out to them to see if there's interest in meeting up for a coffee, and then taking it from there.

 

[Bill Blasic]

Funny, one of my clubs is 9 hours away, another 2 hours East, another 2 hours West and I do have 2 here at home. No I don't go to all of them all the time,

 

[Mike Johnson]

Place an add on Craigslist that your are looking to pay someone to turn some wood items on a lathe.
You will quickly find people in your area that have a lathe.

 

[Larry Parker]

Thanks for the great (and rapid) responses!
I've taken a turning course before, but have not yet worked with carbide scrapers/cutters. I don't belong to a local club at the moment - life is too busy to make the commitment at this point - but my local Lee Valley often has turning seminars, and I will definitely check them out to see if they have something coming up. In the meantime, YouTube plus practice will have to do - and yes, I don't plan on starting with undercutting and hollowing through a narrow hole until I have a lot more confidence in my technique!
For the Jacobs chuck, I already have forstner bits which I use with my drill press, and I've found that the chuck itself tends to run about $50 regardless of where I shop. It's good to know that with the carbide cutters, the cheaper imports aren't horrible - but also to know which brands are more popular as I do look to upgrade them. If I'm reading the comments correctly (and this is for anyone who may be reading this later and looking for a summation):

1. Straight and bent tool handle, 1/2 inch diameter;
2. Trent Bosch tools - https://trentboschtools.com/ ~$100 USD/tool, not including a handle
3. John Jordan tools - https://www.johnjordanwoodturning.com/ ~$80 USD/tool, not including a handle
4. Hunter tools - http://huntertoolsystems.com/ ~$60-100 CAD/tool, including a handle
5. Kelton tools - http://www.kelton.co.nz/ (available from Lee Valley and other retailers) ~$55 CAD/tool, not including a handle

You can get by with imports while learning the techniques and figure out which specific tools to upgrade.

On the brands listed above, Kelton seems the most economical, at $150 CAD for a set of 3, and you make your own handle (which as a woodturner - no surprise there!), followed by the Hunter tools.

As an added comment - I did the pricing info by looking at each manufacturer's site, and if I couldn't get usable information from there, went to an arbitrary retailer. I do not have any affiliation with any of the sites/brands/retailers named above.

In his book, Ellsworth on Woodturning, David Ellsworth has a lot of info on making your own tools using Allen wrenches, etc. Worth looking into.

 

[Keith Mombourquette]

Ellie, one caution I would offer is the cost of shipping over the border. When I bought my hollowing tools, the cost of shipping blew me away.

 

[Mike Adams]

As others have mentioned I too use a twist drill bit. Forstner bits have a point on the bottom that leave a dimple in the bottom of the hole and you will have to turn it a way. A twist drill bit doesn't leave that small simple.

I've only see the forstners used for hogging out spoil, not for setting form depth.

 

[Dennis J Gooding]

I've only see the forstners used for hogging out spoil, not for setting form depth.

I sometimes do that to avoid dealing with the bump or dimple that often wants to form at the center. When drilling the final quarter inch or so, use a Forstner bit with the barb ground off.

 

[William J Smith]

Suggest you look at Amazon for "HSS 3/4 inch mt2 taper shank drill bits." They are twist bits, so no little hole in the bottom. Today, I was only able to find 3/4" and 1", but in the past I was able to buy 5/8", 3/4", 7/8", and 1". They fit directly into your tailstock (no Jacobs Chuck needed) and are up to about 8" long. Yes, they run about $20 each, but you buy them one at a time when you need one. I use the 5/8" bit for drilling bird houses and small openings in hollow forms. I've used this one regularly for about a year, and it's still sharp. So I can't tell you how long they'll last!

P.S. Most of the pieces I turn are from dry wood, so I have little experience using these bits for drilling deep holes in wet wood. Recommend using the lowest speed range on your lathe to maximize torque, drill slow (700 RPM or under), and clear chips frequently.

 

[hockenbery]

Suggest you look at Amazon for "HSS 3/4 inch mt2 taper shank drill bits."

I use these bits for most of my HFs.
almost all wet wood

1” is the largest diameter you can get in a #2 taper..
If you have a #3 taper tailstock you can get larger bits.
The bits are a easy to sharpen on platform just need to leave the cutting edge a tiny bit proud of the point.

I have a 1 1/16” bit with a #3 .MT I use a lot. alos use a 1” #2MT in demos.

 

[James Penuel]

Look at the device made by d-way tools.
https://d-waytools.com/hollowing-tools/
There is a nice video on that site about using the tool.
He uses a spade bit ground to a curved shape to avoid the dimple from a forstner bit.
The cutters are HSS, so sharpening is an option.
MT-2 chucks are available at very low cost on ebay.

 

[Larry Parker]

Look at the device made by d-way tools.
https://d-waytools.com/hollowing-tools/
There is a nice video on that site about using the tool.
He uses a spade bit ground to a curved shape to avoid the dimple from a forstner bit.
The cutters are HSS, so sharpening is an option.
MT-2 chucks are available at very low cost on ebay.

Has anyone tried the D-Way hollowing systems, I’m kind of intrigued with it.