John Jordan has...........

[Jake Debski]

.... been quoted as saying something like “life's to short to turn crappy wood†or something to that effect. I'm sure he is very close to being right on point. But a problem presents itself, for me at least, when deciding “how bad does a piece of wood have to be to fit Mr. Jordan's description?†I'm an average member of that large middle group of hobby turners that try to show the beauty of the wood as best we can. At the same time we depend on the beauty of the wood to give our work some validation. It has been my experience that the most spectacular looking pieces of raw wood are very close to or actually useless for our purposes.

How far are you willing to go to try and salvage a great possibility? Do you have any personal guidelines that you simply won't cross? Any answers to the questions will be greatly appreciated.

 

[Ruth Niles]

That was a very good question, Jake.

John's saying is my mantra. I will work with and on a piece of wood until my patience is gone, then I toss it saying merely "Life's too short" and have no regrets.

I've had punky spalted wood that was 10" dia. x 5", beautiful personality, soaked in 50/50 water/glue, ended up turning down to 3" diam. x 2" or simply tossing it. You have to decide how much time and effort you care to put into a piece of wood and part of that decision will come from how much wood you have in stock. I can't live long enough to turn all the wood I have so I figure the next piece will turn easier and the finished product will be just as pleasurable.

It's only wood.
It grows on trees.
Spalting is common.
The next piece will turn like butter.
It's supposed to be fun.


Ruth

 

[john lucas]

Jake I go too far. I have caught myself spending way too much time trying to save a piece that should be tossed. Sometimes it works out because I will learn a new technique or challenge my skills further but most of the time it kind of looks like you tried to save a piece.
I did chant the mantra the other day while turning a whole bunch of wine stoppers from more or less discarded wood. When ever I was turning and saw a defect that needed repair I pulled it off and tossed it. It's hard to do. I have the attitude of wanting to finish it no matter what. Kind of like when I drive slow on the interstate, it drives me crazy to let people pass me. I love going fast.

 

[Keith Krebs]

I received similar advise, many years ago, from Bob Stocksdale. I asked him if he had any rules for design and he said "don't turn boring wood". And remember, there are no mistakes in woodturning only funny looking fire wood.

 

[Barbara Gill]

I agree with everything that has been said; well except the part about wanting to drive faster than everyone else. It is difficult to describe something so subjective. Experience will show what is worth the trouble. I have found that often that soft piece that had so much time spent on it never does take a nice finish. Or to get a good finish you have to spend even more time fooling around with it.

 

[Ruth Niles]

John, so you're the guy I can never get around when I'm driving down south on the interstate!!!!!

If you tossed more of that difficult wood, you wouldn't have to take out your frustration and stress on the highway......... and let me pass.

Ruth........ Niles ....... little old lady with PA plates .......

 

[john lucas]

Ruth I had my taillights go out on my truck one night while driving back from Nashville. My secretary was wanting to know if I was afraid of getting hit from the rear. I told her if anyone hits me from the rear they are going waaaay to fast. I have tried to slow down lately. I have a used small car that gets fantastic mileage if you drive below 65. It's nearly impossible for me to do but I did manage it most of the way to chattanooga the other day and got 42 miles per gallon. Not bad for a 93 Mercury tracer with 170K miles.

 

[KEW]

Certainly, there are some great turners who specialize in defying John Jordan's mantra.
From what I've seen, unless a wood has some spectacular grain, John tends to focus on the form more than the wood within. That is not a statement of judgement - his work is very nice. However, given that many of his pieces are painted and that he obviously has his own form in mind, it makes total sense that he would gravitate towards nice uniform wood.
I avoid crappy wood because I am still gaining proficiency with standard turning and do not want to confound things by adding in wood problems or figuring out how to best stabilize a piece.

I think another factor in the equation is that as a hobbiests, many of us focus on the process rather than the end product. I am thoroughly content to take a piece of wood and put it on the lathe only to totally waste it away - simply enjoying the action of the gouge on the wood.
While not my cup of tea, another person might take as much pleasure at beating the odds by rescuing a project from the brink of disintegration.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Lots of good replies. Guess it depends. I'm not going to spray the quilted mahogany with automotive lacquer, though. Nor am I going to presume that a basswood bowl which holds adequate popcorn for a decent cuddle in front of the TV is "crummy."

Process / product makes a lot of difference to some. They'll bust their butts trying to get a silk purse from that ear because that's the part they enjoy. If it doesn't suit, it hits the furnace at my house.

 

[George Guadiane]

Crappy Wood???

I have the shirt. I still don't really understand the underlying concept... Before you can accurately/adequately apply the idea, you need a definition of the terms.
As a working antique dealer I understand that "one man's (or woman's) trash is another man (or woman's) treasure." It would seem that the two ideas are contradictory, BUT...
(IMHO) One has to consider the outcome, not the starting place.
A while ago, someone commented on the fact that I always use really nice wood. I heard it in a way that made me wonder if my turning was any good or if it was just the materials that I was working with that drew attention, SO, I turned several pieces of wood that I would normally either use for making jamb chucks, sell or burn, so that I could get a better look at my skills...
Someone told me to paint a piece black and THEN look at the shape, if it looks good in a solid, it is probably a nice form. That's one part of my decision making process. I found that by turning the "plain" wood I could improve my skills, and make an attractive form.

I also take into consideration how compromised the wood is and/or how it is "compromised." I don't want to do anything dangerous, but I don't mind trying to overcome "issues" if the wood has potential, on it's own.

Most painters use the same basic materials in their art/craft, it's difficult to assert that it is the materials that are the main part of a good painting... I think the minds, eyes and hands of the artist make that determination. In the same way, I think that wood, "good" or "bad," figured or "plain" is not ultimately the deciding factor in whether a piece of work is common or unsurpassed.
SO, "crappy wood" is in the eye of the beholder. Edric Florence, for instance uses log sections that are rotted in the center. I think his work is outstanding. He looks at "crappy wood" that most of us would not bend over to pick up and makes delightful turnings. There are many others, he was the first to come to mind...
So, I guess the first thing is to define the terms for yourself, then take on the challenge, whatever it is. Whether it's "plain" wood that needs a perfect form and finish to stand out or punky wood that needs to be handled with care. Whatever one sees that makes us mount it on the lathe, that wood (IMHO) isn't "crappy."

 

[waltben]

John J. freely admits that he prefers unfigured, straight grained wood since he makes hollowed pieces and then texturizes them, and may add carving, colors, etc. This is what he does, and I really admire what he makes. I may have bought my Stubby from him, but I look for gnarly, curly, nasty crotch wood, turn more simple forms, sand to 1,000 or higher, add clear finishes and let the wood character be the focal point. Totally different thing.

That's not to say I disagree with his saying, since I've tossed punky wood that looked extremely promising, but would have taken me far too long to stabilize. At the same time, I spent over a week working on a bubbinga piece that had a bit of sapwood full of bug holes, just to save that sapwood. The piece is huge and very striking, but hasn't sold in about two years. Maybe I should have left the sapwood off and just turned the heartwood part - it would have been smaller but probably would have also sold.

 

[john lucas]

I could be wrong but I think John originally made the statement because wood turners would spend an undue amount of time trying to figure out how to repair checks and other real defects in the wood. Not necessarily avoiding plain wood or wood with bark inclusions etc. In fact in his video on wood movement and the aesthetics of wood he demonstrates how to use the sap wood to your advantage.
I know I spent a lot of time learning to repair cracks or trying to hide or disquise them. Although this proved interesting from learning standpoint, most pieces never really had the aesthetic appeal because the repair was always in conflict with the grain or form of the piece. If you purposely built a piece with a crack that you created you would carefully select exactly where it should go to enhance the piece.

 

[Malcolm Smith]

There's no correct answer to this thread, just a few principles that might point some in a direction they would like to go. If one mounts a very expensive piece of wood on the lathe, one is not likely to experiment with it. If one mounts a poor piece of wood, one is not likely to take much trouble with it. I would suggest that a piece of good but but not exceptional wood will allow experimentation and if it goes well will produce a successful end result that benefits from a lot of care being taken. Most of the time I turn fancy exotic wood. Some of the time I turn wood that would be described as good but not fancy. I don't turn wood that won't produce a product I can feel proud of. The only thing I should add to this is that I turn simple forms and don't paint or decorate them.

Malcolm Smith.

 

[dkulze]

My $1 worth (pennies are outdated)

I personally don't have much interest in turning wood that isn't in some way "crappy". I turn the screwy, partially rotten (rather than spalted), bug holed, bark included, heavily cracked, just plain heinous wood by preference. If pieces are flying off, I must be on to something.

What I get for my efforts are pieces that are unique and that depend on my ability to work with that specific piece's character. If I can "hear" the piece well, it will come out with that indefinable something that attracts attention and admiration.

That all being said, I don't carve, paint, or dye my work. Just not my style to date. So using "highly charactered" wood is a big factor.

dk

 

[odie]

Interesting comments here.

From my point of view, there are few pieces of wood that can't be made into something worthwhile, and even beautiful and artistically pleasing on the lathe. Some of those that won't, are just too fragile to withstand the process......others won't take a decent finish.

I'm interested to know just what it is that some of you feel is not worth your time......are we talking about a very plain, light colored, straight grained piece of wood? It would seem to me that this is the kind of wood that demands more skill and artistic perception than the spectacular piece of wood with wild grain pattern......right?.....or, am I just not running with the herd on this?

Tell me what you wouldn't consider turning......what's not worth your time? (other than the obvious.....cracks, splits, or things like that.)

otis of cologne

 

[Malcolm Tibbetts]

One of the advantages of segmented work is you can avoid using all those "crappy" parts

 

[Jake Debski]

I could be wrong but I think John originally made the statement because wood turners would spend an undue amount of time trying to figure out how to repair checks and other real defects in the wood. Not necessarily avoiding plain wood or wood with bark inclusions etc. In fact in his video on wood movement and the aesthetics of wood he demonstrates how to use the sap wood to your advantage.
I know I spent a lot of time learning to repair cracks or trying to hide or disquise them. Although this proved interesting from learning standpoint, most pieces never really had the aesthetic appeal because the repair was always in conflict with the grain or form of the piece. If you purposely built a piece with a crack that you created you would carefully select exactly where it should go to enhance the piece.

John, this is one of the reasons for my post, time. Plus too often a "good save" looks exactly that, a save. Judging from all the responses though the answer lies in experience and personal taste/judgment. Thanks everyone, as usual it has been an enlightening read.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Interesting comments here.

Tell me what you wouldn't consider turning......what's not worth your time?

otis of cologne

This. Posted elsewhere, but can't find it.

 

[Jake Debski]

MM, that thing looks as though you'll need enough CA glue and/or wood hardener to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

 

[Bill Grumbine]

Jake, I'm coming to the discussion a little late, but I think a lot of it has to do with the goal in mind. If I am turning components for furniture, I want straight grain, no defects, and as little variation as possible to reduce the potential for problems. I suppose some of that can go for functional bowls as well. If I am turning "artsy" pieces, I want figure, wavy edges, holes, knots, so on and so forth. But since I turn for filthy lucre, I have some criteria which I apply to every piece.

Is the piece of a size and shape that I can make something salable from it? Shape enters into it more than size, since often an oddly shaped piece can consume too much time to be worth the effort to get it round, compared to the final size.

Can rotten spots be worked? Do they need stabilized, can they be removed, or is it going to be an exercise in futility and expense trying to get a decent, attractive finish?

Are cracks, voids, or inclusions going to enhance the finished piece, or are thy just going to be cracks, voids, and inclusions?

Working around all these considerations above, will the final shape of the piece be attractive, or am I relying on color and grain pattern to rescue it? Beautiful wood will not save an ugly shape.

Finally, will the amount of time I am putting into the piece be justified in the price I can get for it? I reevaluate this one as I turn. Sometimes it is worth a lot of extra fuss, and sometimes it is time to "cut bait" and go drink a beer to relax and forget about it.

For people who are doing this purely for the pleasure, as well as those who have trouble finding wood, some of these criteria can be a little looser, but I hope that they can help as a guide for some reading this.

 

[Ruth Niles]

What Bill said.

I was forming my response to Otis' call for what we considered not worth the time fussing with when I read Bill's response. He said everything I was going to say.

Since I need chips for a path I'm making through my garden, no wood goes unturned. When I realize a crappy piece just isn't worth finishing, I turn it down to chips, it's put to good use, not just burned............which burning actually puts it to equally good use because I use the ashes for any plant that needs potasium.

Ruth

 

[Bill Grumbine]

Interesting comments here.

I'm interested to know just what it is that some of you feel is not worth your time......are we talking about a very plain, light colored, straight grained piece of wood? It would seem to me that this is the kind of wood that demands more skill and artistic perception than the spectacular piece of wood with wild grain pattern......right?.....or, am I just not running with the herd on this?

Tell me what you wouldn't consider turning......what's not worth your time? (other than the obvious.....cracks, splits, or things like that.)

otis of cologne

Otis, keep in mind as you read my reply that I live in PA, and we heat with wood. So far I've shoved about eight or nine cords of wood into the furnace this winter. Red oak is on the very top of the list for stuff I hate to turn. And, it burns very nicely, so its fate is sealed here. Other oaks are marginal, but will be considered if they have pretty grain, figure, or what have you. All oak is a prime candidate for the furnace.

Poplar around here is not even worth the effort to burn, and I won't turn it except for furniture or other utility spindle pieces. I happen to like poplar for furniture, but it is too bland, at least in these parts, for bowls. I have seen some very pretty pieces from poplar, but that stuff don't grow around here.

Spalted wood gets a very hard eye turned upon it. Spalted burls are always good candidates, and spalted curly wood is possible, but plain old spalted isn't worth the effort anymore. When it is really spalted, it doesn't even burn that well, but throwing it into the furnace at least clears the area for more oak!

The hierarchy around here goes like this:

historical or customer provided wood (regardless of condition or species)
burls
curly or highly figured species
unusual or rare wood
cherry, maple, or walnut (usually in that order)
everything else

The practical outworking of this is that I end up burning stuff that other people would consider turnable, and even desirable at times. Sometimes I feel guilty, so I throw the wood in the furnace after dark. Right now I am having trouble getting any further down the list than curly stuff. But that fluctuates with the wood supply.

 

[Michael Kuehl]

Plain wood like poplar has a place for pieces for which the appearance of the wood itself is not what is important, like pieces that are to be heavily textured, colored, or even painted. Then it seems almost criminal to cover over the beautiful figure and colors of the wood.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

as a fairly new turner, i am still turning different species of wood for the first time, i am not talking about exotics but good ole wood grown locally, i like turning wood species i have never turned before, it is like opening a present from mother nature :cool2:

 

[Hugh]

Another thing that John Jordan said is that when you have a log - get the best bowl you can from the log not the most bowls. If you look at John's turnings - yes he does use a lot of straight grain wood - but he has picked the chunk to turn where he uses the sap wood or some other feature to his advantage. Too many times we get a log to turn and then just start cutting from one end and cut off rounds so we get the most bowls. By doing this we sometimes miss the best bowl in the log.

Some of us are not blessed with the burls and curly wood that is out there and have to make do with straight grained plain wood. Sometimes that straight grained plain wood needs something done to it to make it interesting - carving, painting, dyeing, texturing, etc. Other times the straight grained wood is just what the doctor ordered. I do not buy wood and scrounge all I turn. I try to make the best out of what I have access to.
Hugh

 

[Paul Engle]

A boss I had at a parts store , while I was in college had a sign on the shop door:
" No one is entirely worthless, they can always be used as a bad example"
My guess is , that could be applied to wood and turning as well as people.

 

[odie]

Thanks Bill......I've always known what I like, but being the "loner" of a turner that I am, I'm not fully in tune with what everyone else likes.....or, doesn't like. I'm getting a pretty good idea, though. (Although I'm still pretty much a "loner".....this forum is changing that....in a cyber sort of way! )

Michael Mouse.....yeah, I think I'd forget about that one, too! It looks like an awful lot of stabilizing for a piece that's probably a little "iffy" for a successful venture.....(Or, should that be, "a LOT "iffy"?....heh,heh,heh!)

About that Poplar......here's a 12" dia piece of poplar that was finished in a salad bowl finish. I thought it looked pretty good......so did the buyer! ( I sold it to someone I know personally for just a few bucks more than it cost me to make......what are friends for?....!!!!)

ye ol' otis of cologne

PS: We heat with wood around here, too.......but the native woods here in the Northwest aren't very good for turning purposes.

 

[Ruth Niles]

That's a nice piece of poplar and a beautiful bowl, Otis. I just cut down (well, had someone cut down) a 50' poplar and the trunk is absultely awesome with wavy, colorful, undulating grain for about 6 ft. so I'm thrilled with poplar. I have to agree, again, with Bill, I don't turn Oak.

John Jordan also said, "Just because you drug it home, doesn't mean you have to turn it" !

 

[Gretch Flo]

oak, wood heat

I have to agree, again, with Bill, I don't turn Oak.

First I don't like oak. Some oak splits terribly, and most others are just boring. I like spalting. I heat with wood, and buy the 8 ft log lengths. 20 cords every 2 years. Sell some firewood-have to support myself in semiretirement-make less than $1/hr, but hey, it keeps me out of the bars, and I don't have to pay the big bucks for an athletic club!!!! I usually ask my woodman for oak as red oak is easy to split my maul-now 3 shoulder surgeries later I got a log splitter. 2 yrs ago he got me some older cut oak, maple and some hickory. The smaller oak had sap wood that was spalting, and I have made numerous natural edged bowls that were awesome with the color. They also had some sort of ambrosia beetle that had invaded all the different kinds of wood. Some of the maple spalting was awesome as well.
Another off shoot of this discussion is that I am using more firewood this year as I am working less, and doing more woodworking, heating the basement, and keeping the house warmer. I am running out of firewood!!!!! I may have to judiciously get rid of some of my turning supplies. I cleaned out my scrap boxes 2 days ago for kindling!!! It was -5 deg 2 days ago Will spring ever arrive???). Payback time for the warm january. Seed order sent in, My rototiller needs exercise Gretch

 

[Jake Debski]

Jake, I'm coming to the discussion a little late, but I think a lot of it has to do with the goal in mind. If I am turning components for furniture, I want straight grain, no defects, and as little variation as possible to reduce the potential for problems. I suppose some of that can go for functional bowls as well. If I am turning "artsy" pieces, I want figure, wavy edges, holes, knots, so on and so forth. ........................................................................
For people who are doing this purely for the pleasure, as well as those who have trouble finding wood, some of these criteria can be a little looser, but I hope that they can help as a guide for some reading this.

Bill, your take on the question has pretty much cemented my thoughts on the question. It is purely an individual choice, another decision in the search for "your own voice," and one that will change with time and experience(growth). Thankfully, I too have a wood stove with which to remove the evidence of those decisions.

 

[odie]

That's a nice piece of poplar and a beautiful bowl, Otis. I just cut down (well, had someone cut down) a 50' poplar and the trunk is absultely awesome with wavy, colorful, undulating grain for about 6 ft. so I'm thrilled with poplar. I have to agree, again, with Bill, I don't turn Oak.

John Jordan also said, "Just because you drug it home, doesn't mean you have to turn it" !

Hi Ruth......and thanks!

Since I bought it off the internet, I have no idea what that piece looked like in the log form. The picture really doesn't do justice to the wavy grain pattern in that bowl........to have the whole tree would be a treasure worth hoarding!

I really do envy some of you that have access to great wood.....for free! But, on second thought, I don't have to mess with all the hassles of handling and cutting logs.......it's more expensive, though, but I do have access to a zillion different species of wood.....fun!

otis of cologne

 

[George Guadiane]

Hi Ruth......and thanks!

Since I bought it off the internet, I have no idea what that piece looked like in the log form. The picture really doesn't do justice to the wavy grain pattern in that bowl........to have the whole tree would be a treasure worth hoarding!

I really do envy some of you that have access to great wood.....for free! But, on second thought, I don't have to mess with all the hassles of handling and cutting logs.......it's more expensive, though, but I do have access to a zillion different species of wood.....fun!

otis of cologne

Odie,
I have at least 600 cubic feet of banana boxes full of turning blanks and larger ones that won't fit into boxes.
I have two chainsaws with several chains each, two bandsaws at least 1/2 a dozen blades for each. Right now, I have 2 log trucks worth of wood I can HAVE if I'll just take it away.:cool2:
I spend DAYS trying to find the wood worth keeping. I sell off some of what I can't use, which is most of it, to try and offset the expense of handling all of this "free wood." There is a lot to be said for buying one piece at a time, especially when you don't get tired, dirty or injured in the process - on the one hand.
On the other hand, I can't help myself. I will find a way to get and process those logs... I don't even have a good reason. If I stopped cutting and focused on turning the stuff I have set aside, it would probably take me two years if I were to get really busy.
I envy your opportunity to pick. It would be cheaper (for me) to buy the pieces as I turn them - but I just can't let the wood go to rot... Sad, sad little man (me)

 

[odie]

Odie,
I have at least 600 cubic feet of banana boxes full of turning blanks and larger ones that won't fit into boxes.
I have two chainsaws with several chains each, two bandsaws at least 1/2 a dozen blades for each. Right now, I have 2 log trucks worth of wood I can HAVE if I'll just take it away.:cool2:
I spend DAYS trying to find the wood worth keeping. I sell off some of what I can't use, which is most of it, to try and offset the expense of handling all of this "free wood." There is a lot to be said for buying one piece at a time, especially when you don't get tired, dirty or injured in the process - on the one hand.
On the other hand, I can't help myself. I will find a way to get and process those logs... I don't even have a good reason. If I stopped cutting and focused on turning the stuff I have set aside, it would probably take me two years if I were to get really busy.
I envy your opportunity to pick. It would be cheaper (for me) to buy the pieces as I turn them - but I just can't let the wood go to rot... Sad, sad little man (me)

ByGeorge.......

Well, you managed to get a good chuckle out of me with that post!

I suppose there's pros and cons to whatever method one chooses to get their working stock. For sure, my methods require less effort, but are certainly more expensive in the long run.

I should be out in the shop this evening, but instead I'm hanging around this forum......have a couple of 8yr olds to babysit this evening....

otis of cologne