Disturbing Posts

[Richard Baker]

There have been numerous recent posts regarding the quality of turning tools and chucks that are a bit disturbing. Some folks imply, none too subtly, that if one can not afford high quality (expensive) tools and chucks, one really should not bother to participate in woodturning. The suggestion is that less expensive tools are simply not worthy of anyone’s attention or use, and perhaps those lacking the resources or priorities to acquire expensive tools should find another hobby. Is this the best attitude and message for woodturning?

Granted that some of us enjoy reading the road test articles about Ferrari, Lamborghini, and other expensive makes of vehicles, and are happy for those who can afford to own them. But nowhere in such articles do they ever imply that if one drives a Chevy, one should just quit driving.

Richard in Wimberley

 

[Clayton]

Funny Aside about "Junkie" tools

Richard,

I could not agree more with you about tools. If Del Stubbs could and did use a double sided axe to turn a spindle, needless to say you don't "HAVE" to have the "Rolls Royce" skew to turn with. You can "WANT" to have, but you don't "HAVE" to have.

I am still turning with the Sorbys I started buying almost 20 years ago as my first "real" turning tools and using my original Nova Chuck.

As a funny aside, many years ago I was the new manager of the San Antonio Shopsmith store. I was sent to Dayton for a training class and in the process met Norm Rose. During the training class he said that you could never get a decent edge on the Shopsmith standard turning tools. I knew that with very little effort that I could, since my German grandfather had taught me how to put an edge on any piece of metal. I sharpened his skew chisel in just a couple of minutes and you could shave with it. He was floored.

We became friends that week and through him I learned that you could turn more than just the baby rattle that we did during the demos. He told me if I was going to turn, I needed to call this lady in Minn. and join some association to support turning. Needless to say the rest is history. I went on to start the AAW club in San Antonio, helped get TTT off the ground, and to this day Norm and I are the best of friends. Even though he's a YANKEE!!!!!

Clayton

 

[Gordon Seto]

I only read those threads that are interested to me. From the "Alan Lacer's article', I don't sense what you are saying. To the contrary, there were several postings that suggest learning to use what you have.

In another forum, you asked me to include the less expensive gouges like the Benjamin's Best bowl gouge in the gouge flute profile. I don't own any Benjamin's Best gouge, I have no intention to buy one for the casting. I can't afford to own one each of every bowl gouge. You suggested me to borrow one. I belong to two very active Clubs. Both Clubs have several club lathes. One of the club has 12 Jet mini lathes, each with a set of Crown tools and Talon chuck. I believe most new turners are influenced by what they have learned on and what their mentors taught them to use. Woodcraft, Rockler, Hartville and Thompson Tools all are local to us. All the three stores are very good to us, in the past they have provided us up to 30% discount on Sorby. We don't pay shipping on Thompson Tools. The annual auction from both clubs are a source for inexpensive tools. The Benjamin's Best with shipping doesn't seem like that good a bargain to us. I don't know any member who has them. I just want some good to come out of my wasteful spending. It was not that I had the idea to do the research first and omit to include the less expensive tools. All the tools were purchased before I discovered the Thompson Tools.
What prompts me to do the gouge profiles was a lot of turners said V gouges are likely to clog, but Doug said his V gouge doesn't clog. I am interest to find out what was the difference.
It is the final turning that counts, who cares what lathe or tools you turned it with. The only bragging right is how high a grit you start sanding with, if there is one.
Sorry for the long rambling.

 

[Joe Greiner]

Two hundred percent agreement. The tool snobs' dictum to "buy your last lathe first" really sets me off. It might make sense if I were absolutely certain that I'd become addicted. But I didn't know that at the time. And with good counselling, I might become cured.

Even now, with some fortunate investments, I find that being poor is like riding a bicycle - you never forget how. I don't think I could participate in a sport that was restricted to rich folks.

Joe

 

[KurtB]

I read all the posts, (it comes with the territory), and I can't say that I picked up on any implied reasonings as mentioned. The only common thread that I have seen along these lines is to buy the best tools you can afford. This is a common concept throughout woodturning, and woodworking in general. But I haven't discerned any elitist attitudes about whether you should be in woodturning if you can't afford the best tools. On the contrary, I have never participated in any activity that shares information, techniques, designs, etc. as much as woodturning does. Just MHO, after all.
Kurt

 

[Bill Blasic]

It is a fact of life in general that people have their favorite this and that. A person that owns a certain lathe will generally say that it is the best. Now when a person comes on a forum and asks about tools from people who are using said tools you will get answers that reflect peoples usage of said tools. And believe it or not some people will say that such and such tool is great and if you want the best get this tool. My guess is that they will say this because they have been down that road of buying cheap tools that are barely passable for useage and are trying to help that person from making the same mistakes. Sure you can turn a piece of wood with an axe but why would you want to? I have three lathes at the moment, would I recommend them? Yes, are they the most expensive in their size, 1 is 2 are not. But none of them are cheap lathes as I started with cheap lathes and I would tell someone to look for a better lathe to start. Same with turning tools, I have about 50 or 60 turning tools that I do not use, why? Because Doug Thompson came out with a great tool at a very reasonable price that just made all those tools obsolete to me. Had he been making those tools before I started and had someone directed me to try them I would have a lot less tools but I would have had tools that I use every day. I would recommend the Thompson tools to anyone because they are the best tools out there and they are very reasonably priced not because I own them and am gloating. When I tell someone to look at this or that it is not because I'm a snob or anything else, I'm trying to let this person know I've been there done that. I believe that people responding are doing that same thing with their answers to those that ask. After all is this not why we are on these forums every day, to learn.

 

[hockenbery]

My observations is

folks with skill and heart can do great work with crappy tools

folks without skill and heart usually do crappy work with great tools.

my stock answer to the which lathe question has become
buy the less expensive an spend the rest on lessons.

The clothes make the man argument.

happy turning,
Al

 

[Mark Mandell]

But

We're all just "one tool away . . ."

The issue is not limited to turners. These guys who fill their shops with high-priced iron of all flavors, and race to every wood show to grab the next greatest bread slicer, have the very same problem. They've bought into the shtick that "I am what I drive."

Most often I'll bet the attitude is an attempt to justify all the money these poor souls were hooked into "parting" with.

Yes, indeed, "He can't be a man 'cause he doesn't smoke the same cigarettes as me."

If you let them bother you, you may be perpetuating the problem.

 

[Bruce McElhaney]

Yes

Have to agree with Mark. Woodworkers/woodturners are too often, tool collectors. With many of us it's more about upgrading and collecting that working. Most likely that's because we live in a society where more and newer is considered better, so we're always searching for the next upgrade or gizmo to make life perfect. Of course that's the the direct opposite of, Living in the moment.

Obviously it's not just woodturners. I used to be a boater and quickly learned that too many boaters are unsatisfied with their boats. Most had what is called the, two-foot disease - If only the boat was two feet longer if would be perfect. Of course it never was. . .

 

[Steve Worcester]

I read all the posts, (it comes with the territory), and I can't say that I picked up on any implied reasonings as mentioned.

While I don't read all posts (Kurt read them for me) just kidding)), I didn't see what you are referring to either.

And if you can afford it, buy your last lathe first. And your last band saw, and two chainsaws.

Equipment won't make the art, but it will shorten the learning curve.

 

[Frank Kobilsek]

I for one have bought Junk tools. Truck load tool sale rooled into town. Wood Box of 10 turning tools $29. It was like trying to turn with a Ritz cracker, the edge came off instantly with contact to the wood. At the time I was 'self teaching' and using an old set of Shopsmith tools (carbon) and while I didn't expect much for the price I had expected more than I got. I have since pitched the tools but I did save the box.

The best advice anyone can give here on cost of turning to a new turner is that they need to find a freind or mentor. If I had done that 2 years earlier than I did I would have saved at least $500 and be a better turner now.

Frank

 

[Ruth Niles]

I agree with both sides.......... is that diplomatic, or what?!?

Yes, buy the best you can afford, "afford" being the keyword here.
Yes, you can turn beautiful stuff with cheap tools.....not "junk", rather inexpensive.
(the first 8 or 9 yrs. I used Craftsman tools and 1 Sorby bowl gouge)

Yes, expensive tools or lathes are nicer to drive.
Yes, inexpensive tools or lathes will get you to your destination,
just not as much fun to drive.

Yes, everyone thinks what they have is the best.
Yes, everyone thinks what they will have next is the best.

"Life's too short to turn crappy wood"..........
and
"We're all one tool away from greatness"..........
now go outside and
"Get in touch with your inner chainsaw"...........

Maybe we could find a spare room in Richmond and schedule a discussion rotation, "The Never-Ending Debate"............? oooh, along with "Art vs Craft".......let's not go there!

all in fun

Ruth

 

[Steve Worcester]

"The Never-Ending Debate"............? oooh, along with "Art vs Craft".......let's not go there!

We can add "food safe finishes" and it has to be wood since we are woodturners.

 

[Burt Alcantara]

I started with the suggested Harbor Freight set. I'm still using the spindle gouges, roughing gouge and both skews. I also have P&N, Sorby, Packard, Hamlet and others. I get by without $100 tools.

For a while I began to feel I should upgrade my Nova 1624-44 to a larger lathe as well as upgrading my 14" bandsaw to 19". After getting over the "bigger-is-better" nonsense I'm perfectly happy with all of my "cheap" tools.

They still have more capability then my abilities. Turning is not a sport.

Burt

 

[Mark Mandell]

Ab-so-loootly

Turning is not a sport.

But buying tools may be, and I've got the t-shirt to prove it!!

"HE WHO DIES WITH THE MOST TOOLS WINS"

 

[KEW]

I bought the HF set and a couple of Benjamin's Best tools.
They "got me in the game" at a relatively low expense. If I had waited until I was ready to buy the best I could afford for each purchase, I would be pretty limited in capability of my shop.

I bought inexpensive, but made sure through forums such as this that I wasn't buying bad tools. Now I have pretty much any type of tool I need on hand. Furthermore, since I no longer have the need to "grow" my tool selection, I can focus on quality rather than quantity as the need for another tool or replacement arises.

I did buy a premium brand bowl gouge early on because (at least 3 years ago) the BB bowl gouges had shallow flute profiles much more like a spindle gouge.

For me, subjectively evaluating the tool in my hand, the only thing that is clear is that the sharper tool always works better. If I could train my dog to sharpen gouge #1 while I made a cut with gouge #2, life would be good with the least expensive tools I could find with a good flute. Since it is not that easy, edge life is a big factor in the quality of my limited turning time.

Since my bowl gouge sees much more use than any other tool, I will buy the highest quality I can. I truly have no idea, but I bet any HSS bowl gouge would last between 10 and 20 years before I use up the entire flute. (That is about twice as long as my cars last). From this perspective, I am willing to justify spending $70 on a 5/8 Thompson gouge instead of $30 on a 5/8 Bodger bowl gouge from Highland Hardware (which would be my recommendation for someone starting to outfit a turning shop).

On the other hand -
IMHO, there is no reason to ever buy any better than an "economy" tool for my 3/8" diamond parting tool. I know premium brands would hold an edge longer, but this tool is easily sharpened and sees very little linear feet of wood go past it. It is just not a problem from my perspective to maintain the edge and get good performance out of this tool.

Excuse the ramble, but I see the cost vs. quality issue as relating to which tool and how well stocked your shop is.
Your budget also dictates greatly, but if I had $50,000 to put into my shop, I still couldn't see spending premium $ on a parting tool, just as if I had $5,000,000 I still couldn't see spending $80,000 on a car!

 

[paulspencer2001]

The President of the woodturning club sugested that I start out with a set of Harborfright tools. There Good high speed steel and will do the job. He said to wait until I had worn them down, learning how to sharpen them, before buying the better tools. He said that by the time I can sharpen the tool and getting a good edge, I will have worn them down to nothing and will be ready to buy the better tools that are offered out there. All the tools that I have bought are Highspeed steel and hold an edge quite well (penstate, Harborfright, Ebay, ect). 3 years latter, and Many projects under my belt I am still using those tools that I started with. I love the 3/4 and 1 1/2 skews from Harbor frieght and they have become my main tools I use in spindle turning.

I had already purchased and was waiting for my lathe, Turncrafter pro from penstate, to come in when I went to my frist club meeting. The club was getting ready for the local fair where they demo in Hobby Hall, and they said to come over and they would help me get started learning to turn. Was the best thing I ever did. I still turn on the Midi lathe and love it. I am trying to save up for a bigger lathe, but will still keep the Midi lathe for demo's and hands on sysmposium that are offered where they ask you to bring a lathe.
I have turned on the Jets and Delta that many of the club members have and I still prefer my Turncrafter.

My advice from a new turner is to join hte local club, work with the members and learn from them. Go to the sysposiums when you can, buy or check out from the local clubs library, a few books and videos and then get on the lathe and turn. The more you turn the better you will get, and the funner it will become.

 

[jimbob91577]

My Experience...

I started woodturning(woodworking) about 5 years ago - Before that, my only experience was in High-School shop class about 15 years ago. In which a bat blank came flying off the lathe and hit me in the arm while I was running the band saw - luckily my fingers are all still intact.

I started turning because I wanted a new hobby. I purchased a mini lathe for $150 and the cheapest set of tools that the store had $30 at the time. I still have the tools, I still use several of them, I still have the lathe, but have only turned it on 3 times since I bought my full size lathe.

As the addiction set in, I purchased a more expensive and higher quality set of tools, which allowed me to put different grinds on the cheaper set - which is why I still use them. I was also given a second set of expensive tools as a gift one christmas.

I have purchased specialty tools from lee Valley and a couple of gouges from Penn State - I will most likely continue to do so where I need a tool to do a specific function that I can't do with the tools I already own - (Hollowing tools are next on my list)

To me those who think they need the most expensive, biggest, fastest - tool or other device are no different than those of us who think the only way to turn or finish a bowl is with a gouge and that scrapers are taboo. I think those people are narrow minded. I admire the folks who do the most with the least, who like myself, are self taught, strive to achieve the best possible product or outcome with what they are given and who enjoy the challenge.

I'm not the best turner, far from it, in fact - I come to this site to learn from those who know more than I - to maybe pick up a trick or two, to get the opinions of peers, and to seek advice when I don't get the results I'm after in my turnings. Against better judgement (lookup some of my previous posts if you want more info), I now own a shopfox bandsaw because of the service they gave me when I needed a new belt for my mini lathe, I own a fullsize grizzly wood lathe (again against better judgement) because it had the features I wanted, was significantly cheaper than any other lathe in the category I was shopping in, and I couldn't find a similar used lathe within 200m of where I live. I turn beautiful baseball bats, christmas ornaments, wind chimes, etc - not because of the price of the tools I have, but because of my skill in using the tools that I have.

 

[Doug M Jones]

Can't always have the best

I have only been turning a little over a year and purchased a Jet Mini after being allowed to work on one during a local turning group meeting. I normally buy lower to mid range tools. At this stage of my "turning career" I am more interested in purchasing tools to allow me to grow in skill than having the "best" tool.

My local turing group has a diverse economic membership. There are some that purchase the top of the line tools as well as others that purchase the cheapest available. The great thing is when we all get together, nobody cares what tool you used to get the finished product. We shoot the bull and help each other to hone our skills.

Unless I win the raffle for the Powermatic, my next lathe will be the Jet 1642 and it is probably at least a year away. It will do me nicely for many years to come.

Sorry Kurt but if I had $5,000,000 I would probably have a Robust Lathe and an $80,000 car to go with my high end parting tool.

Just have fun turning!

 

[KEW]

Sorry Kurt but if I had $5,000,000 I would probably have a Robust Lathe and an $80,000 car to go with my high end parting tool.

Just have fun turning!

I'm with you on the Robust!
But not the car or PT!

 

[Gordon Seto]

I'm with you on the Robust!
But not the car or PT!

None of the above.
What do I want a lathe for? Ship me your best pieces or from Del Mano.

I would prefer chauffeur driven limo.

Kurt, I am older than you are, theoretically I don't have so many years to stretch out the fortune.

 

[Ed Reiss]

Sage Advice from Ed Reiss

Lordy, Lordy! My first lathe was a Shopsmith 500 complete with a set of Craftsman spindle guoges. Since I didn't know any better I actually started turning out some decent stuff, good enough to get juried into the Great Gulf Coast Arts festival on the first go-round...even picked up a first place ribbon!

The point I'd like to make is that you want to make the best product with the resources on-hand....and that thing that Del Stubbs does with the ax handle to turn spindles....that is absolutely true! Attended a symposium in Smithville Tennesse where Del demoed the ax thing.
I'll be the first to admit that I'm "Old School" when it comes to buying all these fabulous tools on the market these days. Most all of my tools have been kicking around for the better part since 1982...used not abused and they perform very well

Lesson learned...make the most of what you have, and leave the high priced toys to the boys that can afford it!

 

[John Nicholas]

Sharpening Assistant

I
For me, subjectively evaluating the tool in my hand, the only thing that is clear is that the sharper tool always works better. If I could train my dog to sharpen gouge #1 while I made a cut with gouge #2, life would be good with the least expensive tools I could find with a good flute. Since it is not that easy, edge life is a big factor in the quality of my limited turning time.

Absolutely the best advice I have read on any of the forums in the 4 years I have been reading them.

Thanks - I will see if I can find a dog trainer!!!:cool2:

John

 

[Martin Braun]

My purchases of new tools have slowed way down to less than one every two years. I instead experiment with making tools out of HSS stock, or other metals. It is incredibly interesting, and exciting to experiment with new tools and see what works and what doesn't. For the newcomer with a bit of metalworking in their repertoire and constrained budget, I think this is a low cost alternative for expanding their tool set beyond the basics.

 

[rsser]

I find that in some N American forums I sub to (not this one) there's a strong subtext of 'the latest/best bit of technology will transform my (practice of X)', and my usual reply is something like 'join a club', or 'get lessons, they'll improve your practice dollar for dollar more than the latest gear'.

Voice in the wilderness mostly.

The nice thing about turning is that you really need v. little investment to produce good stuff. There are many ways of skinning a cat in this game, from shop-made tools and jigs and a little creativity and time, to megabuck gear on the retail market.

 

[Bill Grumbine]

I find that in some N American forums I sub to (not this one) there's a strong subtext of 'the latest/best bit of technology will transform my (practice of X)'...

This phenomenon is not restricted to turners or Americans. It is a human characteristic. I participate on other forums dedicated to other past times. Two in particular are shooting - one with cameras and one with guns. On the camera forum I was criticized for finding a good deal on an "old" Nikon zoom lens. It was old because the new vibration reduction lens had just come out, and someone dumped it for the new lens. I got a great price, but was told by "those who know" that I would never be able to take good pictures unless I had the VR lens instead.

Right.

On the gun forums, there are people who offer advice based on name and not on track record. Expensive guns are fine and nice, but not always the most reliable or accurate. But that does not stop those who know better.

Coming back to woodturning, I have one of the best (I think the best) lathes on the market. It is also one of the most expensive. It is ludicrous to expect that everyone should run right out and buy one. When I started out I could not have afforded even an accessory for it. But I worked my way up to it.

Back to the OP, I don't see a lot of the "buy the best" crap on this forum, but it is something to watch for. People who spout that advice generally do not have real life expenses or experiences that most people seem to have.

 

[Joe Greiner]

Turning is not a sport.

Burt

Of course it's a sport. But with more sportsmanship than so-called professional sports. More like a friendly game of darts in a pub, with hints and tips, and some good-natured ribbing, some of which is almost as much fun as a tennis match.

Joe

 

[Steve Worcester]

Back to the OP, I don't see a lot of the "buy the best" crap on this forum, but it is something to watch for. People who spout that advice generally do not have real life expenses or experiences that most people seem to have.

I think some of this is the benefit of the internet age, I get information seconds after the manufacturers put it out there. And sometimes well before that. Although in the wood turnig world, there aren't a whole lot of spy sites and blogs related to revealing the latest technology. We are also struck with new and shiny is better, me too. I work in the technology world and go through computers at a rate that it lightspeed compared to most users. (And I like shiny things).

Some of it is upgrade. Having been through 3 bandsaws before the one I have today, which I am positive is the last, we upgrade to bigger, better, smoother, faster, quieter, whatever. The benfit is the guy behind you in line gets a deal too.
Lathes, on my 4th (I think), and if you count the others in the room, 5th and 6th also I suppose. Only reason I would upgrade is to get some new feature I don't yet know I need. I could turn up to 48" and at darn near 0 RPM, but most of what I go is well below 12", and only go up over that to make stuff that people will actually buy (bowls) versus what I want to make.

I would streess to buy the best you can afford, a better tool will not make a bad turner better, but if that turner is learning, depending on the tool, it will shorten the learning curve. A great example is sharpening jigs.

 

[rsser]

Since I'm moving to a limited budget for all my hobbies, the issue of value for money and how you learn about it in any given case is becoming more pressing.

I can get audio mags that will give me a run-down and summary of eg. an amp; I can get a motorbike mag that will provide a relatively fearless evaluation of a model that the journo has lived with for 6 months. These sources are trustworthy to a degree that an unmoderated user post on the web isn't: they're edited, use explicit standards and clear data and are done by professional writers.

That's a bit harder to come by in the turning world. Lyn Mangiameli's reviews on Fred Holder's website are some of the best I've read. FWW occasionally do a machine comparo and don't appear to be too afraid to offend advertisers. But in some print mags the starting point is similar to that of webposts - an uncritical enthusiasm for the tool that just reads like a press release.

Comparison (pref. blind) is a methodological standard, as is careful control of relevant variables. Rarely seen in web forum posts.

My 2c worth.

 

[Gordon Seto]

Lyn Mangiameli's reviews on Fred Holder's website are some of the best I've read.

Is Lyn back to write new reviews? I have utmost respect for his reviews. There were no funny re-direct to vendors' sites. He was never afraid to say something negative if the product was bad.

 

[rsser]

Last review IIRC was dated '05 Gordon.

Would like to see more of them, or more like them.

 

[KEW]

Last review IIRC was dated '05 Gordon.

Would like to see more of them, or more like them.

I believe Lyn had health issues and is no longer doing reviews. Hopefully, Fred is carrying the baton in the same spirit.

 

[rsser]

Yes, I heard that too.

Wonder if anyone else would like to stand up to the plate? Maybe with AAW support.

Can write a job description ;-}

 

[n7bsn]

Lynn

I haven't heard anything in over a year, but last I had heard he was not expected to return to doing his reviews.

Hopefully he is still healthy enough to enjoy the hobby though.