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AAW Mailing List?

Discussion in 'AAW Information' started by Vaughn, Sep 27, 2010.

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  1. Vaughn

    Vaughn

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    When I joined the AAW and first created an account on the AAW website, I used a unique e-mail address. I've not used this address for any other purpose but to sign up on the site. I don't recall ever getting anything sent to this account except official AAW correspondence.

    So I was a bit surprised to receive unsolicited e-mail (AKA spam) sent to that address a couple days ago promoting a new woodturning website. The mail was sent from a commercial bulk mailing company on behalf of the new website. To this company's credit, the mail message included a link to ask unsubscribe from the mailing list, but that's beside the point. What I'm curious about is how this company get my e-mail address, when the only place it's been used is on the AAW website. Was it sold by the AAW? Was it pilfered by an AAW member with ties to the new website?

    Although this new website is obviously aimed at AAW members, I'm assuming it's not officially sanctioned by the AAW. I'm interested to see how many others got similar unsolicited e-mail within the last few days.
     
  2. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    I got an invite too.

    It is a forum started by Nick Todd.

    seems to be a competitor for WOW, AAW, woodcentral.

    This one seems to be a for Profit venture. while free folks are asked for donations to cover costs.
    oddly there may not be any costs.


    -Al
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2010
  3. Stuart Johnson

    Stuart Johnson

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    Al, read the statement at http://www.woodturnersforum.org you will see:

    This is an alternative platform providing an opportunity for open
    discussion of issues regarding the American Association of
    Woodturners.


    How is this a competitor for WOW or Wood Central? It is a place to discuss AAW issues without worrying about being banned if you disagree with the BOD, web master or moderators.
     
  4. Betty Scarpino

    Betty Scarpino

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    The AAW does not sell its mailing list, ever. The AAW membership list is for personal use and for use with official AAW mailings (paper and email).

    This new forum is not officially sanctioned by the AAW. (But of course they are welcome to begin a forum to discuss the AAW.)

    I also received a solicitation to join that forum. They used a new email address I'd only recently changed in the AAW online directory. So, as far as I can determine, they used AAW's online email list, without the permission of the AAW.



    Betty Scarpino, editor, AW
     
  5. Ron Sardo

    Ron Sardo Guest

    I received one as well on the 24th
    It seems that the new forum is harvesting email addresses from AAW.
     
  6. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Whether "competing" or not, the most serious question is that there appears to be a wholesale harvesting of Member's e-mail addresses for solicitation to "join" the included forum including request for non-tax deductible monetary contributions for a site using the .org domain which many people erroneously equate with non-profit or public interest sites. The "opt-out" option does not make the situation any better.

    Obviously, anyone is free to start their one website and forum, but this solicitation appears to be a direct violation of AAW Privacy Policy, and would need the assistance of AAW members with access to either the Members Only section or a Resource Directory if not a data compilation of the information obtained illegally which can now be sold to spammers and other commercial users.

    This should be immediately investigated by the AAW with appropriate sanctions against the responsible person(s) plus immediate notice to that bulk mail outfit.
     
  7. Wipedout

    Wipedout

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    Mark

    In this case I think you will find they manually put this list together using the resource directory. They are AAW members and have that information because of it - no one at AAW sold or gave away the information - hence no violation of the privacy policy
     
  8. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Privacy Policy

    Think you need to check further. Policy and Procedures, Section K (10), specifically prohibits such use as follows:

    "The Resource Directory is intended solely for the use of AAW members, and any use of its contents as a mailing list or a source of member's names, addresses, and telephone numbers for commercial or charitable purposes, is strictly prohibited except by consent of the Board." [emphasis supplied]

    There should be an application for injunctive relief filed in St. Paul court naming anyone and everyone involved including that mailing company. I did not give my name and contact information to be used this way, and it must be halted.
     
  9. Marvin Hasenak

    Marvin Hasenak

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    I have yet to see any commercial or charitable purposes/activities being done on the other website. The only thing I have noticed is that the other site is not censored when someone voices their opinion and it does not agree with the others. It is an open discussion group, that welcomes everyone's opinion
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 28, 2010
  10. Ron Sardo

    Ron Sardo Guest

    If Nick Todd is using the AAW directory to harvest email addresses he can be held liable for copyright infringement.

    I find it amusing that they are banning people even before they are allowed on the forum.

    What happen to free speech?

    From thier home page
    Maybe we should ask for a monthly financial statement of the funds collected and how they were used.
     
  11. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    That, Marvin, is completely irrelevant. ANY use is prohibited and that prohibition is clearly set forth in print in the Directory.
     
  12. Jamie Donaldson

    Jamie Donaldson

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    Well now, ...

    ..isn't this an interesting reaction, now that the shoe is on the other foot. The BOD violated MN non-profit laws by refusing a MAG request for the membership mailing list, considering that the request was a legal and legitimate membership usage, just as is the new member's forum. It's highly doubtful that any judge would consider granting injunctive relief for a copyright infringement when the definition of fair use among members would be more applicable. And the topic of freedom of speech went out this forum's window long ago when many of us were banned for commentary critical of the BOD activities. Wonder how long this post will remain uncensored?;)
     
  13. Stuart Johnson

    Stuart Johnson

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    Mark, I take it you are referring to the printed directory. All the online says is:

    The Member Directory is for the use of AAW Members whose memberships are current. Please respect and protect the privacy of your fellow members.

    I suppose there might be some room for hairsplitting about what is respect and privacy. I feel it is very respectful to try and provide fellow members a place were issues can be freely discussed (freedom of speech, Ron) and as the list wasn't provided to others the privacy was maintained.
     
  14. Ron Sardo

    Ron Sardo Guest

    Personally, I couldn't care less about the new forum, or it's assumed legal/illegal activities.

    I though it would be a shame to bypass a chance to poke some fun.

    :D:D:D:D
     
  15. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Has nothing to do with copyrights or "fair use" principals, Jamie. The prohibition is not based on authorship, and, being sent to limited number of members, it's not "in the public domain" either.

    The only use of the data that is consented to by members when they supply the information is for official AAW publications which MAG neither was nor is a part.

    You all are free to post a link to your site anywhere you choose, including right here at Comedy Central©, and you shouldn't be banned from doing so, unless of course, you post with hostile editorial content. Build your website just as everyone else does. Don't however, start with the "not my fault" stuff when that commercial mailing firm you used turns around and sells the list to the viagra spammers. A targeted special interest list like the AAW membership role will bring somebody a nice piece of change, indeed.

    I can just hear it now, "No, we wouldn't sell that list. Somebody hacked us and got several lists; yours was just one of them. Sorry."
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2010
  16. Dick Wilson

    Dick Wilson

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    I find it extremely humorous that we are now spouting by-law sections and yelling about free speech when these were all trashed during the Lacer uproar (including unamous board decisions).
     
  17. Ron Sardo

    Ron Sardo Guest


    Pretty tricky Dick

    The policy Mark mentioned is not in the bylaws.

    Your boys where crying about free speech and it didn't take long for your forum master to eliminate it by automatically banning people.

    :D:D:D:D
     
  18. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Turnabout's fair play, right Dick?

    BTW, haven't seen anyone invoke a by-law (none exist on the subject), and nobody's talking about limiting free speech; just improper use of personal information.

    In your zeal, you guys stepped over a line. Now we can all watch to see how you all are going to fix it. What you do and how you do it will say much about your group. Of course, if you take the position that you didn't break anything, there'll be nothing to fix, right?
     
  19. Dick Wilson

    Dick Wilson

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    You guys got what you wanted. YOU WON!!!!!! And yet you keep whinning. Blah, blah, blah, some old broken record.
     
  20. Ron Sardo

    Ron Sardo Guest

    :D:D:D:D

    Whining!

    You crack me up, let me know when you are in Vegas so I can catch your act.
     
  21. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Actually, everybody "lost". But it may well be that since you regard the conclusion as a loss for your "side", it follows that you need to believe that somebody else "won" which you will, of course, define in such a way as to reaffirm your own view of things.

    Have a nice day.
     
  22. Ron Sardo

    Ron Sardo Guest

    Woodcentral Editorial Assistant: Barb Siddiqui

    Boy are you confused, can't beleive anything you say.

    This speaks volumes.
     
  23. Stuart Johnson

    Stuart Johnson

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    Ron, were you banned or do you have direct knowledge of anyone that was? If so did you or they contact Nick or Curtis as requested?

     
  24. Ed Davidson

    Ed Davidson

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    In regard to non-AAW employees harvested AAW member contact information from the members area of our website, that action would be a copyright infringement. Additionally, as a copyright notice is clearly visible on every page of the AAW website, violators would not have the luxury of claiming that they were unaware of their action being an infringement.

    Also, as a precautionary measure, I'll be pulling a report from the woodturner.org host of all IP addresses that have accessed our server over the past several months. Spotting an unauthorized access will be very easy, as there are only two authorized IP’s to the server – mine and our St Paul software contractor. Any unauthorized access, theft of files, etc…, if there have been any, will be fully prosecuted.
     
  25. Timothy Rowe

    Timothy Rowe

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    AAW Member

    So if I wanted to send some other member info on a website and I got there e-mail and contact information from the directory I would be breaking the law?:confused:

    What exactly is it for then other than contacting other members if I am a paid up member?

    I also use it to find contacts to trade wood, if I'm traveling. Is that legal?
     
  26. Ron Sardo

    Ron Sardo Guest

    No

    But harvesting a dozen or a few thousand emails addresses to solicit people for membership is.
     
  27. Timothy Rowe

    Timothy Rowe

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    the difference

    One or 10,000 whats the difference it was a notification, not a membership drive for money, just letting us know that there is an (unbiased) alternative.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2010
  28. Ron Sardo

    Ron Sardo Guest

    It is copyrighted material that belongs to AAW.
    AAW never gave permission to anyone to use its property in such a manner.

    It doesn't matter that those who stole the information are AAW members. Todd's forum is not affiliated with AAW, therefore it is illegal to use this data for soliciting membership to his forum. Those that stole the data and gave the information to Todd are culpable.

    Getting nervous Timmy?
     
  29. Timothy Rowe

    Timothy Rowe

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    I have nothing to be nervous about he could have got my info anywhere. I am the club President so he could have gotten it from our website. I just hope they pick me for the jury.:D

    And Timmy is my son and he is busy "Protecting America" in the military. Like his Father and Grandfather did. Just so we can have this free speech!:D
     
  30. Vaughn

    Vaughn

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    Thank you all for confirming my suspicions.

    The people behind the unsolicited mass mailing can spin it any way they want, but spam is spam, and any mailing not sanctioned by the AAW that uses the AAW Member Guide as a basis for the mailing list is a violation of the clearly-stated Policy and Procedures section. Even without regard to that policy, the approach used by the new website to promote itself and solicit support shows bad form and is likely indicative of the nature of the place. Just sayin'. :rolleyes:
     
  31. Royce Wallace

    Royce Wallace

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    What a bunch of -----

    My membership in AAW allows me to use members e-mail addresses to advise them of whatever I desire--period. How I do that is not relevant. The new forum is that of an AAW member(s) that have ever membership right to advise via e-mail of the fact they have started a new forum--Are you all afraid of competition?? Is AAW (read: BoD) likewise afraid of open commentary by a few interested, participating members?
    Threats of litigation already?? Goodness fear abounds. Defending privacy??--nonsense, access to any information contained on this site, or in AAW electronic records can be acessed at any time by anyone with minimum computer skills. Just stop this nonsense before you get result you have not anticipated.
     
  32. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Sounds like a threat, Mr. Wallace. Hope you've got what it takes to back it up.
     
  33. Royce Wallace

    Royce Wallace

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    No threat.

    Not a threat, Mark, just the fact litigation does not aways product the result intended by the plaintiff--in or out of court, as you should well know.l
     
  34. Marvin Hasenak

    Marvin Hasenak

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    I was under the impression the emails in the directory were for the use of any member. This was so they could contact any other member about woodturning or about the AAW and even for personal use. I have gotten emails from other members in the past, and I have either helped them or tried to send them to someone that could.

    If 100 members each took a 100 names and emailed them about the party I am having this weekend, would that be an abuse of the list? The party has nothing to do with woodturning, just a gathering of hunters in our pasture celebrating the beginning of hunting season. Or would it be better to have a personal demonstration of how to make a coyote call and then effectively use it? The latter, the coyote calls I make are made on a lathe, so I guess I could call it a Turning Symposium. Or would this be abuse of the emails of the members of AAW.
     
  35. Jamie Donaldson

    Jamie Donaldson

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    Any discussion about ...

    ..violations of "official"policies and procedures from the viewpoint of the BOD is a joke at best, considering their recent actions. The fact that AAW members have created an alternative forum is a positive for open communication among members, especially beneficial due to the censorship practiced here. And threats about legal action for claims of harvesting a mailing list are "smoke and mirrors" as Ron likes to say. Ron and Ed are not well informed about the specifics of copyright law, as a simple compilation of membership names is not sufficient for copyright protection. This database info is similar to a phone directory, simply a collection of readily available public domain information, without sufficient original authorship to legally qualify .
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2010
  36. Ed Davidson

    Ed Davidson

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    Jamie,

    What is not allowed on this forum is defamation, libel or personal attacks, all of which you and a few others are apparently oblivious to.
     
  37. Al Stramiello

    Al Stramiello

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    Y'all are more than welcome to discuss this over at Woodturnersforum.org

    Just a suggestion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2010
  38. Timothy Rowe

    Timothy Rowe

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    omg

    Al, you're killing me!:eek:
     
  39. Curtis Thompson

    Curtis Thompson

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    E-mail info?

    Seeing how we're discussing e-mail and member information in the directory, I would like to point out that my name and information has vanished from the directory. :confused:

    Who do I contact to correct that. It use to be in there. It's just recently disappeared.

    Curtis Thompson
    AAW member # 15049
     
  40. Jamie Donaldson

    Jamie Donaldson

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    Ed- don't you remember....

    ...that your grammar teacher taught a rule about "never using a preposition to end a sentence with!" :D
     
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