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Bowl gouge "edge holding"

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by John Tisdale, Aug 10, 2020.

  1. John Tisdale

    John Tisdale

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    For years now I've used Dway bowl gouges with good success. I cut a lot of mesquite and, very recently, a large red oak (consignment). While I've been somewhat verbose about the M42 Dway, the big red oak made me rethink - I had a hard time going more than a few inches. Then I pulled out my old Glaser Hitec red-handle 3/4" and made progress.
    What might be the difference between an M42 edge and an old Glaser V10? I don't find a huge difference when cutting mesquite - but when kerchunkin red oak, I think the Glaser's edge holds up better.

    Also, is there a difference between the Glaser tools of old and the new? One difference for sure is price - but now that gouges last so much longer in these days of CBN, what the heck.

    And lastly, what is the difference between V10 and V15? I know the answer is 5% but, from a user standpoint, does anyone out there have experience with both?
     
  2. Brandon Sloan

    Brandon Sloan

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    Not an expert in metallurgy, just someone who was interested in the topic at one time. One of the things I came across was a comparison of different knife steels. The steel with the highest edge retention was almost at the bottom of the list in toughness. V10 was said to be One of the most neutrally balanced steels on the market. I would assume from this information that V15 would retain most of that neutrality with a little higher edge retention.

    I’ll be interested in hearing what others have to say. I’ve experienced similar results while cutting some Indian rosewood. My m42 gouge did not last very long. My Thompson gouge seemed to last longer.
     
  3. Joe Kaufman

    Joe Kaufman

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    In the past Doug Thompson (thompsonlathetools.com) made a few sizes of V15 gouges. He would be a good source for info. IIRC he said the V15 were more susceptible to edge chipping than the V10 and more difficult to sharpen, Glaserhitec.com has info on both steels.
     
  4. john lucas

    john lucas AAW Forum Expert

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    Mostly it's the amount of vanadium that you get in the particle metal.steels like V10 and V15. With molten steel like m2, m42 etc you can only get a out 3 % vanadium. V10 is 10%. The vanadium makes the steel tougher so it holds an edge.longer. also cryogenic treatment that Doug does helps.convert more material into carbides. I forget all.the details but basically the materialmis stronger and less brittle which leads to better edge retention. It was always a little hard for me to tell that Thompson tools held an edge longer until.i had to turn some aluminum. One pass.with my m2 tools and it was so dull I could not make another pass. Inwas able to take many passes with my Thompson tool.
     
  5. Bill Blasic

    Bill Blasic

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    10V for me is the best steel for my turning tools, holds a long time edge but does not have a tendency to be chippy like 15V. As stated by John the Vanadium is the key to its toughness as well as the heat treating which lines up all those ingredients in the steel that leads to its toughness and edge holding ability. I watched an IRD the other day where the demonstrator was extolling the M42 steel of another tool maker as to the sharpness it could be sharpened to while playing down the sharpness of the 10V type steels (I don't know if he knew that M42 is also powdered metal technology also). So he showed that using a diamond hone and a leather strop he could shave hair on his arm. Well the next morning I went down to the shop and pulled out a Thompson skew (straight from Thompson and in the drawer where it abides as I do not use them) and made 6 or 7 passes on each side with a diamond hone and without stropping on a piece of leather I could easily shave the hair off my arm (stropping would have made it sharper). I have used D-Way steel and I'll tell you there is not a thing wrong with it and if there were no Thompson tools I would be using the M42 technology but there are 10V tools and that's what I use.
     
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  6. john lucas

    john lucas AAW Forum Expert

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    Obviously he didn't see my article on which steel gets the sharpest. All of them is basically the answer. Here is the article if anyone is interested. I didn't have any M42 at the time because it was brand new to the turning market but my guess is it won't get any sharper than these.
     

    Attached Files:

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  7. Paul M. Kaplowitz

    Paul M. Kaplowitz

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    I have 12 5/8" bowl gauges.( I don't know how I got 12, but you can never have too many 5/8" bowl gauges ). Two are Sorby, one is D-Way M42 and nine are Thompson's. There is no question in my mind that Thompson's hold an edge two or three times longer than the others.
     
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  8. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    I have both Thompson V10, and D Way M42HSS. I can't tell any difference in edge holding abilities. Not sure if I ever had a V15 from Glaser or not. I did have their V flute gouge and didn't like it. Too sharp of a V and it tended to clog up. I know the Serious Lathe guy had some experimental metals for his gouges that was very hard, but don't think I ever hand one.

    robo hippy
     
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  9. Kevin Weir

    Kevin Weir

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    Good discussion. I have 2 half inch bowl gouges. The latest is a Oneway M42. While it definitely holds an edge longer than my old Sorby, there is a noticeable difference in the stiffness. The Oneway is more prone to a tiny amount of flexing when taking a heavy cut. I think it has a deeper flute with not as much beef at the bottom as the Sorby. I still like it though and will be getting a Oneway 5/8 Inch gouge soon. That should resolve any flex issue.
     
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  10. Brandon Sloan

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    The one way gouges are CPM4. I did a little more learning and found an interesting guide. This is just for powdered metals. C37CE5C8-36AD-4438-88C5-5197D56E1D78.png

    That explains why John and I have experienced some issues with m42 cutting harder woods.
     
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  11. Kevin Weir

    Kevin Weir

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    Yes, my error. Not a HSS expert.
     
  12. Brandon Sloan

    Brandon Sloan

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    No worries, your comment is what made me want to compare HSS. You also have me thinking about trying oneways gouges out.
     
  13. Randy Anderson

    Randy Anderson

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    I'm in need of at least one new 5/8 gouge and maybe a 1/2. I have two 5/8. One I think is an old crown that was given to me and in my early days of trying to learn how to sharpen I took off way too much steel. It started short and now it's very short. I use it but have to be careful not to get in a bind with it. My other is from DWay. Very helpful info here so will shop around a bit. Was about to just get another M42 only because I was told it's better. I don't have enough to do any comparisons.
     
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  14. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    Brandon, any idea on how new or old that chart is? I am wondering if the 'grindability' was with old friable wheels or the newer CBN wheels....

    robo hippy
     
  15. Brandon Sloan

    Brandon Sloan

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    I found the information at https://www.hudsontoolsteel.com/technical-data
    It says on their website that they are constantly updating technical data on tool steels.

    After looking at the different tool steels commonly used in turning tools, I’ve come to the conclusion that v10 is tough as hell. It’s high content of vanadium is what sets it apart. M42 has a high wear resistance but is not as tough. CPM 4 is a mix of these two with good wear resistance and good toughness.

    This leads me to believe that for what we are using them for, the difference is marginal in most situations. An obvious exception being extremely hard woods where v10 would excel.

    Just my thoughts, if I’m wrong, chastise me.
     
  16. Randy Anderson

    Randy Anderson

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    For those with more than a few of the same size gouges it's probably not a big deal. For those like me that operate with one or two it's a bit more critical. I have an M42 5/8 from DWay so think I'll try something else. The Thompson site says they use CPM10V so will try one and see if I can tell a difference. I likely wont be able to but I do know I can tell a difference between my old Crown and the M42 so will see.
     
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  17. Brandon Sloan

    Brandon Sloan

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    I should have been more specific, I was only referring to M42, CPM10V and CPM M4. Which will have a noticeable difference over the tools simply labeled HSS or M2.

    I have a Thompson gouge and really like it, I don’t think you can go wrong with your choice. Are you planning on buying a handle with it?
     
  18. Randy Anderson

    Randy Anderson

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    Brandon, sitting here in my shop now trying to decide on a handle. My local friend that turns is big on using the same DWay handle and swapping the steel out as needed. He sharpens without the handle and says it's better. I have a nice 16" DWay handle that I could use and just buy the steel but, my routine is different, I like nice wood handles, etc BUT, handles are not cheap as you know. I've made a number of small handles for scrapers and small carbide tools but for a 5/8 gouge I use to rough out big bowls I think something with proven reliability. Net, I think I'll buy the steel and adapt to swapping the steel out in the handle I have for now. The DWay 5/8 gouge is a 0.63" shank. I can't find the spec on the Thompson site but assume it's the same and will fit.
     
  19. Brandon Sloan

    Brandon Sloan

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    I was in the same boat at one time. I decided to buy the steel and just switch out handles. I only made that choice once. I can put some calipers on my Thompson gouge in a minute. I do know that my 1/2” Carter and sons gouge fits into a 1/2” Thompson handle. One thing I’m not fond of is the Thompson handles have fixed sizes. Hands down my favorite handles are from Carter and Sons. They have a 3/4 bore so you’ll need an adapter if you go that route. They make a 20” handle that I’ve had my eyes on. If it wasn’t so damn expensive!
     
  20. Brandon Sloan

    Brandon Sloan

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    This is interesting, the Thompson 3/8” bowl gouge has a 2” tang that is exactly 3/8”. Then it is 25/64” through the shaft and flute. The handle I ordered with it is 25/64”. I’ve always had the gouge inserted a little further than the 2” mark and didn’t notice that if you only insert the tang, there is slight play. With the set screws in place, it fits as it should. I wonder why they bothered turning down the last 2” of the tool? I’m guessing, the 5/8” gouge will be pretty similar and should fit into your DWay handle.
     
  21. Randy Anderson

    Randy Anderson

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    Sent a note off to Doug at Thompson. Very quick reply - yes it fits. Their shafts measure 0.625" give or take a couple of thou so good to go.
     
  22. john lucas

    john lucas AAW Forum Expert

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    Doug started turning the tangs down to a standard size so they would fit most peoples handles and collets. As you noticed when he gets the steel it's slightly over sized. I had an interesting conversation with the guy I buy bandsaw blades from. He said M42 is the best material for metal cutting bandsaw blades.
     
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  23. Dean Center

    Dean Center

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    It seems to me that the M42 tools are very close in price to Crown Powder Metal and Thompson V10 tools, while the latter 2 hold a sharp edge longer. It doesn't seem to me that M42 tools are as good a value.

    One other thing to keep in mind is that the Thompson tools do not have the same flute shape as English tools, and presumably not the same as Carter, Oneway, or DWay tools. Depending on how you sharpen, the flute shape may make a bigger difference than the small difference in the advanced steels.
     
  24. Randy Anderson

    Randy Anderson

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    Dean, interesting comment on flute shape. I've noticed that I can put my old Crown 5/8 into my wolverine jig, sharpen and get nice wing shape and consistent line up to and around the nose of the tool. Doesn't take a lot of attention to sharpen it. However, on my DWay 5/8 I have to pay closer attention or I get wings with high curves, inconsistent height in the wings and the dip just before the nose. I've assumed it's the difference in steel hardness and I need to spend a bit more time on it. I recently reshaped all of my gouges to make sure wings even, no nose dips, shoulder off below the nose, 55 deg bevel, etc. Took more effort on the DWay. I've compared the flutes before and can't see any difference. I also have to pay attention to my 1/2" gouge, also an old crown, or I get in trouble. Most of my challenge I've attributed to being lazy about keeping the wing sweep going back the right amount as I do quick sharpens and leaving too much steel on the sides. All that to say - hoping I don't have to modify my sharpening setup for a different flute shape here.
     
  25. R Henrickson

    R Henrickson

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    In recent years I've done relatively little bowl turning, but my choice for spindle gouges are all Thompson, almost all in the detail gouge form. I think I give them a pretty good test since most of what I've turned in recent months is dry white oak. They've held their edge well. My Sorby spindle gouge hasn't been used in years.
     
  26. Bill Blasic

    Bill Blasic

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    I have had many many pro turners through my shop for hands on for my club. Some of these turners sell their own tools or espouse the use of certain brands or flute shapes. One thing I noticed was that every student who had badly sharpened tool no matter the flute shape or price of the tool the pro would sharpen it and make fantastic cuts, again regardless of flute or whatever. What this has told me is that it is not the flute, not the brand and not the cost that makes a difference. It is the ability to know how to approach and cut with whatever is in your hand. That comes from experience and thousands of hours of turning. A flute shape or tool brand will not make you a better turner, knowing how to cut with that tool will make you a better turner and in my estimation that takes practice, practice and practice! That doesn't mean you won't find a brand or flute that you like as you undoubtedly will find something that suits you.
     
  27. john lucas

    john lucas AAW Forum Expert

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    Well.said Bill. I do find some.flute shapes require more attention when grinding or you can get a dip.right behind the nose or get a.pointy nose. It just a matter.of watching the grind more closely as you sharpen. The flute shape does change how the wings come out but as you said it's more about how the turner uses the gouge than the shape. Of course good.edge.holding is still nice.
     
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  28. Kent Jaffrey

    Kent Jaffrey

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    Randy, I have noticed this exact thing when sharpening my Carter bowl gouge (my problem gouge) vs crown or hamlet. I too thought it might be the M42 being harder or the flute shape. Just yesterday I watched the Glenn Lucas sharpening video and he showed the exact problems we are having and stated it was due to a V shaped flute (harder to sharpen) vs an elliptical flute (easier to sharpen with a swept backwards grind). He implied that the V requires more focused attention along the wings where the V is straight while the elliptical are sharpened with smooth motion from one wing to the other. He didn’t explicitly show how to sharpen a v shape in a wolverine set up, since he only used elliptical or parabolic, but. Do now realize my motion at the sharpener spneeds to be markedly different for the two tools.
     
  29. Randy Anderson

    Randy Anderson

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    Kent, maybe we start a new thread on this but I would really like to get to the bottom of why I see this. When I first got my setup I had a 6" grinder and CBN wheel. After a fair amount of frustration I concluded it was me trying to use a 6" wheel so, I dropped the $ and got a new 8" grinder, CBN wheel etc. That wasn't the issue but did improve the curve in the nose due to small radius of the 6". I've burned up way too much expensive steel trying to determine what I'm doing - motion, lazy, jig setup, etc. I've looked at the flutes and they look identical but maybe I don't know what to look for. I try to find his video.
     
  30. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    As for the little dip you can get behind the nose, I do cover this in my sharpening video. With the more straight sided flutes, when you come off of the nose, you do a quick roll/flip over to the wing. With a half round flute, you keep the same roll rate. With the parabolic flutes, you still don't want to roll at the same rate, just a little quicker from nose to wings, but easier than with the more V shaped flutes. The old Glaser V gouge was really tough to sharpen.

    As for edge holding abilities, I have a friend and mentor, Larry Karlin, and I did a video of him and his sharpening methods because they were different than mine. Larry turned his 'grimple' trays (old British term for 'things to be collected', and he considers that to be his trade mark name for these trays and Larry is retired, but turned his business over to a friend) out of Oregon Myrtle wood, for maybe 30 years, and did about 750 of them per year. Myrtle, if you haven't turned it tends to have some silica in it and can blunt the tools. Larry said there was pretty much no difference in the edge holding of the Thompson or D Way tools. I can't really tell any difference either.

    robo hippy
     
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  31. Randy Anderson

    Randy Anderson

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    Well I'll be. I've looked at the flutes of my two 5/8 gouges more than a few times to see what might be different. With my calipers I couldn't see a difference but, after I've now done a reshape of both to be a good grind there is a difference in the inside slope of the flute. The DWay is more of a straight line in from top of the flute edge to the curve at the bottom. Wouldn't call it a V but it's not curved toward the outside of the shaft. The Crown has a slight but noticeable outward curve from flute edge to bottom. It's subtle but there. I've never noticed before and would explain I think why my perception is having to take more steel off the outside of the wings of the DWay. No inside arch means more steel on the sides. Wow, it's a subtle difference but there. I'll take a look at your video and try to adapt how a sharpen.
     
  32. Timothy White

    Timothy White

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    Brandon: Thanks for the chart and for sharing your research on tool steel. We all need to remember that all these tool steels are designed to cut steel not wood so toughness and wear qualities and edge holding ability will differ when cutting different materials. Carbide for cutting metal won’t cut wood worth beans and visa- versa. Maybe someday someone will put together a test that will answer our questions.
    I have found that sharpening with CBN wheels in excess of 360 grit makes any HSS cut better and last longer than grinding with friable stones. I sharpen my Thompson tools to CBN 600 grit. They cut better I don’t sharpen any less often than with stones but I get a better cut and I take off way less steel each time.
    Turning with a really sharp tool is a joy to behold.
     
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  33. Tom Gall

    Tom Gall

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    For a flute comparison this might help. Squish some clay or Playdough in the flute (behind the ground edge).....remove and place in the other flute to see any difference. Soapy water or some other lubricant might be necessary for easy removal.
     
  34. john lucas

    john lucas AAW Forum Expert

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  35. Dean Center

    Dean Center

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    I was just about to suggest John L's video on sharpening problems. It was phenomenally informative and helpful to me when I first saw it years ago. thanks for sharing again, John.
     
  36. Randy Anderson

    Randy Anderson

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    Good videos. Had not seen John's and had watched Robo's when I first started turning. Today has been one of those "feel stupid" days for me. Been turning for a few years, made and sold/given away a couple hundred bowls with a huge stack here ready to sell and I'm just now realizing my sharpening is impacted by the flute shape, which impacts how well I can cut and turn. I never paid it much attention other than the casual look and always thought the discussion of flute shape was not a big deal. I have a spindle gouge and the difference is very obvious but I don't do much spindle work at all so didn't give it much thought. So, now that I know, I can more easily adjust my sharpening motion to accommodate for the difference and know what I'm doing and why.

    I'll now have a DWay with a V flute and a Thompson and short Crown with the U flute. Considered trying to change my order with Thompson but I actually like the U flute on my crown - easier to shape for sharpening and when sharp I like the feel so, on we go.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
  37. Brandon Sloan

    Brandon Sloan

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    Is it necessary to have a CBN wheel to get the most benefit out of Thompson gouges? I’m guessing the higher vanadium content would chew up aluminum oxide wheels. Just curious as I have CBN wheels, but I know that a lot of turners look to upgrade tools before grinding wheels.
     
  38. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    I bought a few thompson tools before I got a CBN wheel. They sharped well on my norton 3x wheels.
    I think they get a tiny bit sharper on the CBN.
    Sharpened the glazer tools on AO wheels.
     
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  39. Brandon Sloan

    Brandon Sloan

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    Great conversation here. I’m one of those people who really needs to justify my purchases. I asked myself if the difference between the different tool steels isn’t glaring, which tool would I buy. I would still buy from Carter and Sons, Thompson, or DWay. I like supporting Made in America, the fit and finish is top notch and all three have excellent customer service. If the steel provides a small advantage, that’s just a bonus. Now I feel better about my tool fund being in the negative.
     
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  40. john lucas

    john lucas AAW Forum Expert

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    I sharpened my thompsons on white aluminum oxide wheels at 120 grit. When I got my CBN it was 180 and it did get them sharper but then it's a finer grit. What I think does happen is it cuts faster so you use a lighter cut when you grind.
     

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