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Bowl gouge orientation for a "finishing cut". Almost a catch is what I want!

odie

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@odie , click my picture and when that opens click my small picture. Should see a tab “media”.


This is a good example of what I'm talking about. If you can't get inside this awkward space right up to the inside corner, without the need for aggressive sanding, then the traditional grind is something you might want to consider.......
1723 east india rosewood (20).JPG

-----odie-----
 
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odie

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My apologies to @William Rogers for the above post. I've edited it to exclude my evaluation.......

What I'd like to highlight, is the great amount of embellishers who lathe turn. Although I do really appreciate great embellishment, what really impresses me is what a turner can do on the lathe, rather than off the lathe......and, there are many of those, as well! :)

-----odie-----
 

hockenbery

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A picture showing the geometry better. As I wrote like a spindle roughing gouge, but with a shaft position that prevents it from catching. Used with the edge vertical.
View attachment 38189
cool tool!
Looks like ring tool with 1/2 the ring missing. I use several ring tools. mostly for endgrain hollowing.
I have termite and one of unknown heritage.
one difference is I sharpen the inside with a cone shaped stone on a die grinder.
the outside is just polished occasionally with a diamond hone
 
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hockenbery

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This is a good example of what I'm talking about. If you can't get inside this awkward space right up to the inside corner, without the need for aggressive sanding, then the traditional grind is something you might want to consider.......
View attachment 38192

-----odie-----
you are doing well with your tool

I would try a 40/40 here. If it doesn’t fit a 3/8 spindle gouge will do that corner nicely on a small bowl.
a 1/2” spindle gouge for larger bowl

also might use a slightly curved square scraper with fresh burr like Al Stirt uses for a cleaner surface.
goes right into tight corners...
 
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William......the very tip of the cutting edge is what cuts. It's the same, no matter what the grind is. I'm beginning to think you have this confused with the shape along the length of the cutting edge.
This is true: What is causing the angst is the fact that Hannes grind is a “continuous bevel” the “ cutting edge“ you speak of is a continuous cutting edge on the Hannes grind. The “ tip of the edge“ is anywhere on my the sharpened part of the gouge you want it to be.
This a thought process that is so far outside the box tha it is difficult to see without binoculars.


It’s hard to let a sleeping dog lie. What drew my attention to this post was the “almost a catch” phrase. As the only way to achieve what I will call the “sand-less” cut. Well I don’t get catches as a result of my grind. And worry not I have no intention if using your traditional grind. I still strive to get that sand-less surface. I have gotten really close. I do things differently to achieve this goal. I grind the heal away and strive for a micro bevel. Before making the final cut(s) I wax the tool post to make sure the tool slides freely. Describing how much of the tip contacts the wood or any other detail is impossible for me. I can just feel when the cut is right. Making it totally through the cut with out some pause or adjustment of the tool is the challenge.

The goal is the same, but the paths are different.
That “ Almost a catch” sucked me right in too. When I’m turning bowl I like to think about shape, cut quality , etc. rather than getting a catch. Besides getting a catch on a finish cut usually ruins your project. A catch at the start of a project can ruin your whole day.
“The goal is the same, but the paths are different”
This sure doesn’t sound like a “herd mentality” too me!

I would like to suggest that everyone re read Donna Banfield’s post, not because she agrees with me (I’m nobody) but because she had the courage to break with tradition and investigate something radical and different and spend 3 months doing it.
 

odie

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you are doing well with your tool

I would try a 40/40 here. If it doesn’t fit a 3/8 spindle gouge will do that corner nicely on a small bowl.
a 1/2” spindle gouge for larger bowl

also might use a slightly curved square scraper with fresh burr like Al Stirt uses for a cleaner surface.
goes right into tight corners...

Already done, Al......thanks

-----odie-----
 
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Odie, I've been reading all the comments and replies on this "finishing cut" topic. Either I am an oddball turner (very likely) or someone that just has trouble with comprehension. I've turned a few pieces of wood in the last few days just for practice, basically turning them away to nothing, just to see how I do a finishing cut. I don't have a set way of doing it. Depending on the grain orientation, and the shape of the bowl, I don't think I could ever describe it as a single right way of doing it. I seem to be able to do a fairly clean cut with about any of my gouges, some maybe better than others. But the biggest variable is not the tool or the grind but the wood. For me, different wood, different grain, burls, things like that are what dictates the tool and the method I use to make that last (hopefully) clean cut that I decide is the starting point for sanding. I honestly have never thought of one single way of doing it. If I could say I have best success with any one thing it would be to always resharpen whatever tool I'm using just for that final pass.
 

odie

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Odie, I've been reading all the comments and replies on this "finishing cut" topic. Either I am an oddball turner (very likely) or someone that just has trouble with comprehension. I've turned a few pieces of wood in the last few days just for practice, basically turning them away to nothing, just to see how I do a finishing cut. I don't have a set way of doing it. Depending on the grain orientation, and the shape of the bowl, I don't think I could ever describe it as a single right way of doing it. I seem to be able to do a fairly clean cut with about any of my gouges, some maybe better than others. But the biggest variable is not the tool or the grind but the wood. For me, different wood, different grain, burls, things like that are what dictates the tool and the method I use to make that last (hopefully) clean cut that I decide is the starting point for sanding. I honestly have never thought of one single way of doing it. If I could say I have best success with any one thing it would be to always resharpen whatever tool I'm using just for that final pass.

Can't disagree with any of that, Curt......thanks for your reply.

I thought I had conveyed the same message that different woods may require different methods......although, much of that can be generalized into the best overall method. I think of wood as an "individual", and even similar blocks of the same species, or even from the same tree, may require observant evaluation with different conclusions.

-----odie-----
 
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@odie
I guess your evaluation was not flattering. Not everyone likes every turning. I have thick skin and as I said still learning. Send me a private message if you don’t want to post on the forum. I don’t have your experience, just a couple of years and my taste varies. As far as the cut above I think I can do that if I wanted, but not my style.

don’t leave me guessing.
 
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Where can I see some examples of your work, William?

Matter of fact, I'd like to see some examples from a few others here who posted in this thread. I just checked on a well known turner who posted here (as I often do)......and, there has been nothing new posted in the last couple years! We all have our own set of experiences, but I'd like to see some of the opinions expressed here represented by examples of their current works. As Glenn reminded me earlier.....a picture is worth a thousand words. :)

Click the links below to see examples of my current works.....

-----odie-----
Odie: Have you ever heard the old saying “You can always tell the intelligence of person by how much they agree with you?
if this saying is true then the converse is also true you can always tell how unintelligent a person is by how much they disagree with you.

Since when is it necessary to post recent pictures of finished products to have a valid opinion?
Since when is a photograph of a finished product in anyway indicative of a persons turning skills?
I have never posted a picture of any of my turnings nor do I intend to.
This is a personal choice and I don’t like insinuations that since I don’t post pictures, I am any less of a turner or am not entitled to post an opinion Or that my opinions are not valid because I don’t post pictures.
Since I don’t agree with you about the necessity to post pictures to ”prove) my turning skills, therefore I’m less than intelligent
Correct me if I am wrong:
The title of this post is

Bowl gouge orientation for a "finishing cut". Almost a catch is what I want!​

Then you morph into the cross section of the point of the cutting edge or some such. And when some of us disagree with you all the sudden you want to change the subject.
Odie, unlike you I wasn’t born 21 I don’t know everything.
l freely admit when I’m wrong
In the future when you start a post, if you don’t want opposing opinions please say so and I’ll keep my opinions to myself
 
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hockenbery

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when is a photograph of a finished product in anyway indicative of a persons turning skills?
never.
A photo of an object says nothing about turning skill.
I know a few folks who make really nice pieces with anemic skills.

photos of finished objects show what the maker has made not how it was made.
we see a bowl we think lathe. Some Superb bowls were never on a lathe.

techniques/skills are best captured in videos of the process - even these don’t get it all and camera positions and angles often miss or distort details. But you can see the transformation from blank to object.
i get a feeling for the skill of a turner watching demos and videos.

when I watch students turn and listen to their cuts I can give them pointers to make the cuts sound better and cut cleaner.
 
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never.
A photo of an object says nothing about turning skill.
I know a few folks who make really nice pieces with anemic skills.

photos of finished objects show what the maker has made not how it was made.
we see a bowl we think lathe. Some Superb bowls were never on a lathe.

techniques/skills are best captured in videos of the process - even these don’t get it all and camera positions and angles often miss or distort details. But you can see the transformation from blank to object.
i get a feeling for the skill of a turner watching demos and videos.

when I watch students turn and listen to their cuts I can give them pointers to make the cuts sound better and cut cleaner.
Thank you Mr Hockenbery!
 

odie

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@odie
I guess your evaluation was not flattering. Not everyone likes every turning. I have thick skin and as I said still learning. Send me a private message if you don’t want to post on the forum. I don’t have your experience, just a couple of years and my taste varies. As far as the cut above I think I can do that if I wanted, but not my style.

don’t leave me guessing.

Actually, William......it was very flattering......with a stipulation that your turning is far from the kind of turning that makes a certain kind of impression with me. You do some very nice things.....and, I really do mean that! :) Your sense of artistic design is very good, and it shows!

I deleted what I wrote, simply because it is not my place to comment about certain aspects of other's turnings.

In my post following that, I attempted to explain why it is that some turners make a much more favorable impression on my senses than others. There is no right or wrong, good or bad, in this......just that I value certain on-board skills more than others, simply because I can personally relate to some results more than others.

-----odie-----
 
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odie

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never.
A photo of an object says nothing about turning skill.
I know a few folks who make really nice pieces with anemic skills.

It does in certain aspects, Al.....:)

Photos show exactly the shapes the artisan pursues, and how that shape is applicable to the ease of power sanding. You just don't see certain shapes, and the relationship of certain shapes, if the turner does not possess the tool handling skills necessary to eliminate aggressive sanding. Aggressive sanding is what destroys geometric integrity, which in turn makes detail grooves, and intersecting planes unacceptable.....because without geometric integrity, they have a bad visual impact. If all of these things are not in harmony with the artwork as a whole, it plays a part in the overall aesthetic appeal. This aesthetic appeal can be an educated evaluation from some art connoisseurs, but for many appreciators of art, it's a subconscious psychological appreciation.

-----odie-----
 
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odie

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In the future when you start a post, if you don’t want opposing opinions please say so and I’ll keep my opinions to myself

To the contrary......I always have, and have learned to always expect opposing opinions. Yours are welcome, as are others.

I am very much a maverick in my turning, mainly because I accomplished most of my major progress working completely alone.....without the benefit of "group think". The woodturning world left in other directions with many things, but I kept working with some basic principles that were more common in another time and place.

This is not to state that "group think" doesn't have it's benefits......It does, but learning with, or without "group think" influences one's personal paths differently. I turned for over 20 years, before I had any of the benefits of mingling with other turners on these AAW forums. When I joined these forums, it was like my woodturning journey suddenly became a two tiered learning experience, because I now was influenced by other turners. That point became the "before and after" demarcation. Both of these very separate learning steps had advantages, mixed with some disadvantages. For certain, I do feel my personal journey was, and is very uniquely beneficial to where I am at this point........and, my journey continues!

I've said this many times before in these forums, because I feel it's an important thought........."the only thing that really matters, is results."

-----odie-----
 
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hockenbery

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Aggressive sanding is what destroys geometric integrity, which in turn makes detail grooves, and intersecting planes unacceptable..
sanding is a skill too.
so true that poor sanding ruins curves, flats, and details. There is no shame in using 80 grit if it is used well.
but 80 grit does have limited applications.

best defense against poor sanding is to minimize it.
anyone who does finials wants to sand with 400 or maybe not at all. 80 grit would break a finial.

While looking at an object can give us an insight to the sanding challenges it presents,
it tells us nothing about how it was made.

earlier you showed a picture of a dovetail rim detail that you were able to turn with your grind.
Many of us turn a lot of similar dovetails for our tenons
the crisp shape and clean corners are important for tenons too and not sanded at all.

that same dovetail detail could have been done with a 40/40 or a spindle gouge
the surface could have been improved with an Al Stirt styled scraper so that little or no sanding is required.
The photo tells us nothing about how it was made or even if it was turned on a lathe.

the photo just shows a crisp clean well made detail.
 
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@odie I appreciate your posting. I was not looking for you to comment on my style other than the bowl. When I am turning a Native American piece I am connected to that turning. Just because it is not a bowl doesn’t mean there is not a connection. The added “embellishment” is part of that connection. It is no different when I am turning a bowl. I am connected to that piece, some may be embellished and some in the pure form. I turn local woods mostly, mainly because of cost, but have turned exotics. You pick and buy your blanks where I am there with a chain saw on a downed tree and get what I get. A plain cherry bowl is just that, a plain cherry bowl. If I could just pick and choose exotics and highly figured blanks, embellishment wouldn’t be necessary on a bowl. The ship in my media is of significance. As a turner it has always been a desire to turn something no one else has. (Hockenberry suggested the ship). The ship was made from a bowl, cut in half, and then glued together and finished. I estimate 75% was turned on a lathe, I even turned 20 1/8” diameter cannon balls. You asked me if I could make the cut in the above post. I said yes. Can you make a pirate ship from a bowl? You don’t need to turn bowls only to establish a connection to the turning.

Back to your original post, You have your preferred grind to achieve the finish you want. I have a different grind. It doesn’t mean yours is better or mine is better. But I feel mine is just as effective to achieve that finish. Yes, I do embellishments, but that really doesn’t detract from the turning aspect.

Right now my interest is making my brother a wood cowboy hat for his birthday. The concentration is a very high level to do this, maybe as this is the first time trying. I’ve made a few mini hats and will make a few more before I try a full size. Do you think you can make a cowboy hat?

Life is about new ideas and adventures.
 
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@odie I appreciate your posting. I was not looking for you to comment on my style other than the bowl. When I am turning a Native American piece I am connected to that turning. Just because it is not a bowl doesn’t mean there is not a connection. The added “embellishment” is part of that connection. It is no different when I am turning a bowl. I am connected to that piece, some may be embellished and some in the pure form. I turn local woods mostly, mainly because of cost, but have turned exotics. You pick and buy your blanks where I am there with a chain saw on a downed tree and get what I get. A plain cherry bowl is just that, a plain cherry bowl. If I could just pick and choose exotics and highly figured blanks, embellishment wouldn’t be necessary on a bowl. The ship in my media is of significance. As a turner it has always been a desire to turn something no one else has. (Hockenberry suggested the ship). The ship was made from a bowl, cut in half, and then glued together and finished. I estimate 75% was turned on a lathe, I even turned 20 1/8” diameter cannon balls. You asked me if I could make the cut in the above post. I said yes. Can you make a pirate ship from a bowl? You don’t need to turn bowls only to establish a connection to the turning.

Back to your original post, You have your preferred grind to achieve the finish you want. I have a different grind. It doesn’t mean yours is better or mine is better. But I feel mine is just as effective to achieve that finish. Yes, I do embellishments, but that really doesn’t detract from the turning aspect.

Right now my interest is making my brother a wood cowboy hat for his birthday. The concentration is a very high level to do this, maybe as this is the first time trying. I’ve made a few mini hats and will make a few more before I try a full size. Do you think you can make a cowboy hat?

Life is about new ideas and adventures.
I could make a cowboy hat, no problem. I’ll post the results in 2023!
 
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Actually, William......it was very flattering......with a stipulation that your turning is far from the kind of turning that makes a certain kind of impression with me. You do some very nice things.....and, I really do mean that! :) Your sense of artistic design is very good, and it shows!

I deleted what I wrote, simply because it is not my place to comment about certain aspects of other's turnings.

In my post following that, I attempted to explain why it is that some turners make a much more favorable impression on my senses than others. There is no right or wrong, good or bad, in this......just that I value certain on-board skills more than others, simply because I can personally relate to some results more than others.

-----odie-----
I’m the same. I see a perfect form and I love it. I see a segmented turning with 70,000 glued blocks and say why. I see the skill needed to complete it , and even see the necessity sometimes why people do it. Free scrapes, or the really love the look, but I don’t Love it. Most of the native style bowls I pass by , but the odd time I see one that is perfect almost looks like it’s 300 years old and real. I show my wife and she goes mmmmmm don’t really like it. Everybody loves different art. Some people collect abstracts , some people collect realism. It’s all a matter of perceptions and love for that particular piece of art. I wish there was more critique on work when we post a picture on here. I see people always posting picture and you see a few likes but not many comments. I’m guilty of it. I feel I’m not good enough to comment on others works, but constructive criticism helps every turner get better. Now that got OT.
 

odie

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sanding is a skill too.
so true that poor sanding ruins curves, flats, and details. There is no shame in using 80 grit if it is used well.
but 80 grit does have limited applications.

best defense against poor sanding is to minimize it.
anyone who does finials wants to sand with 400 or maybe not at all. 80 grit would break a finial.

While looking at an object can give us an insight to the sanding challenges it presents,
it tells us nothing about how it was made.

earlier you showed a picture of a dovetail rim detail that you were able to turn with your grind.
Many of us turn a lot of similar dovetails for our tenons
the crisp shape and clean corners are important for tenons too and not sanded at all.

that same dovetail detail could have been done with a 40/40 or a spindle gouge
the surface could have been improved with an Al Stirt styled scraper so that little or no sanding is required.
The photo tells us nothing about how it was made or even if it was turned on a lathe.

the photo just shows a crisp clean well made detail.

Al......

When sanding bowls on the lathe with alternating long grain and end grain, there is nothing than can be done to minimize taking more off the long grain than the end grain. As you know, this is quite different than end grain turning of finials, where this important consideration doesn't exist. In the case of the former, it really doesn't matter if the sanding is 80 grit, or 240 grit.....the long grain will be removed at a faster pace than the end grain. Any use of the coarser grits will exacerbate the issue. This is what destroys geometric integrity, and prevents aesthetic appeal in the fine details. This is also why it's so important to eliminate any need for power sanding, and to minimize any hand sanding. The only thing that can do this, is to refine the tool skills that minimize the need for anything but the fine hand sanding.

-----odie-----
 
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Lennart, looking at your tool again, to me it looks like an outside the bowl cutting tool. Do you use it on the inside as well? I would guess you could turn it upside down so you can push down to the bottom of the bowl... It would be interesting to try out for a test ride, but don't think I would make one.... Any short videos of it in use?

robo hippy
 
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A picture showing the geometry better. As I wrote like a spindle roughing gouge, but with a shaft position that prevents it from catching. Used with the edge vertical.
Interesting gouge/grind, Lennart Did you get inspired by the C.I. Fall "Svarvöga"?
 
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More people should realize that it is only by the finished products you can impress your customers.
I am one who turns for me I turn what I like. If someone likes what I make great!
Customers means business which means production which means efficiency which means proficiency in every aspect of the turning process.
the skill which one manipulates their turning tools matters greatly in the finished product.
An artist was asked how he painted such a beautiful picture. He answered that the painting was already on the canvas he simply uncovered it with his brushes.
My goal in turning is to look at the piece of wood, decide what it wants to be then efficiently turn away every thing that isn’t that object.
 
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Lennart, looking at your tool again, to me it looks like an outside the bowl cutting tool. Do you use it on the inside as well? I would guess you could turn it upside down so you can push down to the bottom of the bowl... It would be interesting to try out for a test ride, but don't think I would make one.... Any short videos of it in use?

robo hippy
A very short video just to show how it is used. The lathe is up a against a wall, so very difficult to get a good view for the camera. Also had to turn one-handed not to obscure the view. Doesn´t seem possible to post a video, so just a picture of how the tool is used.

1618391533305.png
 
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cool tool!
Looks like ring tool with 1/2 the ring missing. I use several ring tools. mostly for endgrain hollowing.
I have termite and one of unknown heritage.
one difference is I sharpen the inside with a cone shaped stone on a die grinder.
the outside is just polished occasionally with a diamond hone
Yes, resembles a large ring tool, about 30 mm diameter. The main difference is the shaft position above the cutting edge.
 

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A very short video just to show how it is used. The lathe is up a against a wall, so very difficult to get a good view for the camera. Also had to turn one-handed not to obscure the view. Doesn´t seem possible to post a video, so just a picture of how the tool is used.

View attachment 38200
I wouldn't mind taking a look at that video, Lennart......Is it on YouTube?

-----odie-----
 
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The only thing that can do this, is to refine the tool skills that minimize the need for anything but the fine hand sanding.
Just wondering. There are times I use sanding sealer either before a final cut or before sanding. Wouldn’t the use of a sealer help minimize the the long grain/side grain effect? And would wet sanding also minimize this effect?
 

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Just wondering. There are times I use sanding sealer either before a final cut or before sanding. Wouldn’t the use of a sealer help minimize the the long grain/side grain effect? And would wet sanding also minimize this effect?

I don't know, William. I haven't used sanding sealer for this purpose......but, off hand, I'd say that if your "tool finish" does not require aggressive sanding, and the minimally sanded surface has maintained "geometric integrity", there would be no need for an improvement of the surface that aggressive sanding destroys.

Why not do some experimenting, and give us your conclusions?

-----odie-----
 
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Why not do some experimenting, and give us your conclusions?
The need happens mostly with spalted wood. I have had spalted maple where the wood is dense enough to turn without tearout except in a spot. This is when I have used sanding sealer to help eliminate tearout. But as Robo stated, Some woods just don’t corporate. Here I have used wet sanding. I’m not surer I could quantify the results other than the surface is no wavy to the feel. I guess I could put an indicator on the ID and OD and measure the total travel before and after. Right now I have the lathe tied up with another project, but will look for some spalted maple, or another piece of sassafras as this is a soft wood.
 

odie

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The need happens mostly with spalted wood. I have had spalted maple where the wood is dense enough to turn without tearout except in a spot. This is when I have used sanding sealer to help eliminate tearout. But as Robo stated, Some woods just don’t corporate. Here I have used wet sanding. I’m not surer I could quantify the results other than the surface is no wavy to the feel. I guess I could put an indicator on the ID and OD and measure the total travel before and after. Right now I have the lathe tied up with another project, but will look for some spalted maple, or another piece of sassafras as this is a soft wood.

You know, William......there is a product specifically for that. Minwax Wood Hardener. I've used this for some really punky spalting with mixed results. Check it out.

-----odie-----
 
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Al......

When sanding bowls on the lathe with alternating long grain and end grain, there is nothing than can be done to minimize taking more off the long grain than the end grain... The only thing that can do this, is to refine the tool skills that minimize the need for anything but the fine hand sanding.

-----odie-----
Odie, if I ever get to the stage where I can routinely start sanding at 220# I will be a happy man. To that end I hope to take some lessons from Al Stirt soon. In the meantime I deal with the issue of relative end and side grain removal by scraping and sanding with the lathe off most of the time. Hand held shaped scrapers can be quite effective in smoothing and fairing, and rotating the work by hand allows for removing material where needed, spending more time sanding harder end grain. This is by no means as good as clean cutting, but it can help avoid the ovalizing effect of sanding a spinning bowl.
 

Randy Anderson

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Been following this thread as I continue to try and improve my gouge skills but I'm not at the point yet that I tweak my grinds for different cuts. Not sure I even follow all of the discussion here but trying. I'm at the point now where I can tell a difference in the shape but I still have the same grind on all my gouges and am paying close attention to what "feels" more comfortable to me to make better cuts. So many variables to account for that I figured consistency of grind was better at my stage. I have no science to support it but I do like the feel of U shaped flutes. Don't know why. Since adding a number of neg rake scrapers to my arsenal it's too easy to get lazy with gouges and just clean up with a scraper, plus I can get a minimal sanding needed surface. That said, I don't want that to become my norm. I force myself to stop, go back and take fine gouge cuts and only rely on the neg rake scraper for final light work. Considering moving one of my 5/8 gouges to a more traditional grind and see how it works for me after reading this but not sure.

I've had good luck with JB Weld wood hardener on spalted pieces but only used it where things are heavily spalted and I know it's not going to get in the way of or show in the finish.
 
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Interesting gouge/grind, Lennart Did you get inspired by the C.I. Fall "Svarvöga"?
I think I got the idea from Åke Landström, but it could be Pelle Evensen (or somebody else)
I wouldn't mind taking a look at that video, Lennart......Is it on YouTube?

-----odie-----
I will try to make a little more decent video of using the tool, the one I made is not posted publicly.
 
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Looking again at that tool, I have a number of different BOB (bottom of bowl) tools with flute shapes from the fluteless gouge from Doug Thompson, to spindle detail type flutes, to U and half round flute shapes. Main difference is that I have a bit of sweep to the nose profile. Interesting concept.

robo hippy
 
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