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Club IRD

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by Gerald Lawrence, Jul 30, 2020.

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  1. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

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    Ok we have: 1.IRD (defined as Interactive Remote Demo)from demonstrator to club
    2. Personal IRD from demonstrator direct to all public as a pay per(name may change)
    3. "CLUB" IRD presented by demonstrator thru club cameras and equipment via zoom to club members and other interested parties.

    Ok I just thought of #3 . Three of our officers discussed it this morning. As an example we had 4 demos scheduled but have had to cancel because these turners are not doing IRD as of yet. If we invite those turners to one of our home shops which have internet connection and use club equipment we already have then a IRD is possible for that turner to our club and any others interested. Costs to club would be the same as an in person demo and this does make this type more costly than a #1 presentation, because travel , lodging and meals included.
     
  2. Doug Rasmussen

    Doug Rasmussen

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    1) IRD, how is it interactive? ZOOM or other? Is it interactive through each club member's computer at home and can they interrupt the presenter to ask a questions mid-presentation?

    2) Personal IRD, but using ZOOM only those who have paid for the invite? I would call it Private. This is the one where pricing could be variable depending on numbers of viewers or possibly a flat fee determined by the presenter. Tricky if only a few viewers signed up , but that could be a risk the presenter takes if he's presenting a not-so-desirable subject. Emiliano had only 4 viewers originally signed up, I wonder how he was charging (or maybe his was free to get the experience).

    3) Haven't thought about this one. I had a feeling most presenters would have their own equipment.

    Will there still be non-interactive remote demos at club venues with masks and social distancing?
     
  3. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

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    1. Doug to me interactive means immediate. Zoom is most common but also Google, Microsoft and a couple others. Can be either at home or in club setting. most good demonstrators allow interruption and also co-host reads questions in chat window.

    2. Terms do change and you are right Private is current terminology. These are new and done on a pay/per as promoted by advertising. Right I do not think this will expand by much as I do not see profitability.

    3. Most demonstrators do not have their own A/V gear much less the knowledge to operate it. So in current situations this would give an outlet to all demonstrators If they are willing to travel to someones shop. I just see a possibility in this but again for clubs with the tech know how to bring it off.

    I do not see it happening with the social distancing . The venue we use will only allow 15 in the building we use.
     
  4. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    You are on to something. I have offered, for a few years now, to help the Honolulu woodturners. They still use AV cables and old video cameras. I have told them I can travel, get a good meal, and set up my equipment, do an IRD at their location, or a members shop. I was going to talk more about it at the Symposium, but, like everything else, we had to cancel. When Guilio Marcolongo comes back to visit, we are planning on doing at least one private IRD. I will be the 6 camera director. We are still a long way from mainstream. people still ask me like Doug above, what is the difference between an IRD and Youtube!! My usual answer is when was the last time the Youtube turner stopped to answer your question, look at you in the eye and answer?
     
    Donna Banfield and odie like this.
  5. Clifton C

    Clifton C

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    Emiliano, I think this has been answered, Just haven't been able to find it... What is the minimum internet requirements a member has to have for your gear/setup to work. When at the minimum requirements, how does the degradation manifest, ie. slow video, poor audio etc and what's acceptable, as your name is still attached to that IRD, as in, everybody knows you are trying to help, but they still point the finger for a sub pare IRDs.
     
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  6. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

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    You ask for a lot of info in a small space. Minimum upload (that is what you send out) is 10 but 15 would be much better. As to allowable things just prepare backups and be prepared for everything. Backup cameras, computer, microphones, cables===in other words when you are doing a live demo on any medium ANYTHING can go wrong at any time.

    Then there is that old saying your momma told you " Ain't no guarantees in life son except death and taxes".
     
    Emiliano Achaval likes this.
  7. Dave Landers

    Dave Landers

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    Back in May, I hosted another demonstrator in my shop, giving a demo for our club (via Zoom). What @Gerald Lawrence is calling "Club IRD" (except it was my equipment, not the clubs, not a big distinction though).

    I acted as co-host (helping with muting noise and chat questions, etc). (We also had another member "on-call" for phone support if members had trouble connecting, etc, as this was still early-days for our members using Zoom).

    I showed the demonstrator how to switch my cameras in Zoom, etc. and we went from there. I've upgraded my setup since then, but at the time I think I had only 2 cameras - one pointed at the demonstrator (body/lathe), and one on a movable arm for close-up view of the turning. Even with that simple setup my take-away was that I needed to be way more involved in running the cameras.

    Doing a demo requires multi-tasking (talking while turning) plus some "out-of-body" awareness (what is your audience seeing / hearing / thinking / wondering?). Add operating the cameras and it takes things to a new level. And even though Zoom lets us "put the I in IRD", the interaction is different from demonstrating in-person, and takes a bit of getting used to.

    So just having a shop with computer / cameras / internet isn't quite enough. Nor is it enough to just have a "co-host" which we often have. It also takes a "director" or "producer" to take the camera-operation load off the demonstrator (and serve as a small human "audience" for the demonstrator).
     
    Mark Jundanian likes this.
  8. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    IRD's make you multitask at a level that I never thought possible before, LOL The ultimate would be to have a friend in the shop, controlling the cameras with the web controller. He could be changing them as needed, like a movie director. I was using the web controller today, and I added a new camera mount in front of my chest, I believe it added a new level of professionalism to my demo. I had 4 cameras and I had several different multiview options. Fun!
     
  9. Dave Hulett

    Dave Hulett

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    Gerald, one correction. Streaming an IRD only requires 2-3Mbps. (as per Cindy and Alan) .
     
  10. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

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    Dave I cannot find a direct reference but I believe Alan told me that a lower connection of 2-3 which you can get on cellphone hotspot will leave you with problems like lip sync and video delay. I probably had notes at the time but maybe a year ago now. I think download needs less speed than upload to look like realtime. I will keep looking. Maybe @AlanZ will show up.
     
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  11. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    I would not be happy with only 2 to 3 Mbps. I ask for a minimum of 5 to 10 upload and double that for download.
     
  12. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    2 to 3 would make for a very uncomfortable viewing experience.
     
  13. Dave Hulett

    Dave Hulett

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    From Cindy's IRD Lucid post: "To send video over the connection, we need at least 2 or 3 mbs of upload." That is where I got this reference but surprisingly I wasn't able to find direct mentions on our Lucid forum. But I found this From Zoom's website:
    • For 1:1 video calling:
      • 600kbps (up/down) for high quality video
      • 1.2 Mbps (up/down) for 720p HD video
      • Receiving 1080p HD video requires 1.8 Mbps (up/down)
      • Sending 1080p HD video requires 1.8 Mbps (up/down)
    • For group video calling:
      • 800kbps/1.0Mbps (up/down) for high quality video
      • For gallery view and/or 720p HD video: 1.5Mbps/1.5Mbps (up/down)
      • Receiving 1080p HD video requires 2.5mbps (up/down)
      • Sending 1080p HD video requires 3.0 Mbps (up/down)
     
  14. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

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    I did find one other thing yesterday saying the more people on the call the more the connection drags.
     
  15. Dave Hulett

    Dave Hulett

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    i'd like to see where it said that. Your own stream goes to the zoom server and then zoom sends it to each participant. it is true that the more connections (people) you have the more chances for issues but the bottleneck is the zoom server, not any one individuals connection. Zoom regularly throttles transmissions when nessesary, usually by dropping the resolution. But hey, never say never... .. with computers anything's possible and if it can go wrong it will!
     
  16. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

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    There have been so many things Alan has showed me that affect reception , transmission and display in a club room mode the whole thing is amazing. And something many do not realize is that as the software programs we use update or expand they use more CPU, more Memory and in general that computer which is fine for internet browsing is no where near there for doing any kind of demo, or photo process program
     
  17. Mike Adams

    Mike Adams

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    I've watched a number of Zoom demos and I it's my belief that they either don't have enough bandwidth or they're compressing the hell out of everything. The audio in Zoom meetings I've had to attend is seldom anything I'd want to listen to for an hour.

    My company uses Webex every day for our meetings and also for large company presentations with 200-300 attendees (at least once a week). The audio is always crystal clear (caveat, provided the speaker's headset isn't crap) and having a perfect recording afterwards is great. If you're considering doing demos you should investigate Webex. They have a free plan and, of course, several paid plans. The paid plans add many features.

    The free account lets you do 50 minute meetings for up to 100 participants using PC audio.

    The $14 a month account lets you host meetings of any length for up to 100 participants and allows participants to dial in. Has a whiteboard, session recording, etc...
     

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