• Beware of Counterfeit Woodturning Tools (click here for details)
  • Johnathan Silwones is starting a new AAW chapter, Southern Alleghenies Woodturners, in Johnstown, PA. (click here for details)
  • Congratulations to Paul May for "Checkerboard (ver 3.0)" being selected as Turning of the Week for March 25, 2024 (click here for details)
  • Welcome new registering member. Your username must be your real First and Last name (for example: John Doe). "Screen names" and "handles" are not allowed and your registration will be deleted if you don't use your real name. Also, do not use all caps nor all lower case.

Fixing runout or wobble on an old Delta Lathe

Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Messages
4
Likes
0
Location
Redwood Valley,Ca.
First, let me apologize up front for the length of this post. A famous man once said "I could write you a short letter but it would take me too much time" and I suffer from the same affliction. If you are having wobble problems with an old Delta or similar lathe what is below might help. I wish I had found similar advice a few years ago.
For several years my Delta 1460, vintage 1950s, 12x36 lathe sat unused because I was unable to figure how to fix the wobble that made faceplate work very frustrating. I had got the machine in a trade about 15 years ago and it had sat in a corner for its first few years because while a long time woodworker I knew nothing about turning and didn't have time to learn more. When I got around to trying it out it I did a couple of spindles but realized that the lowest speed, about 900 rpm, was way too fast for face plate roughing, especially for a beginner teaching himself via books and dvds. So I rigged up a jack shaft and cut the speeds by 2/3s.
I started out mounting on a face plate, having no chuck, but found it incredibly difficult, or better said impossible, to bring the workpiece to round. I thought at first that it must be me and my poor beginners technique, even though I felt reading Rowley and Raffan plus many watchings of Raffan's dvd had taught me something. Then a light bulb lit up over my head and I put on the 6" face plate that had come with the machine without a piece of wood on it. It displayed a very visible wobble when spun by hand.
So I ransacked the internet for what was wrong and how to fix it. I came away thinking that the bearings must be shot or have been damaged by an impact to the spindle causing spindle runout but replacing them changed nothing. I posted my problem on a forum (owm, old woodworking machines) and it was suggested that perhaps the spindle itself was to blame. So I went on ebay and found a headstock up for bid. An added plus was it did have the indexing pin which mine was missing. But besides showing me that the the wrong width bearing was installed on the outboard side of my original headstock it didn't help. It seemed very unlikely to me that both spindles were bent, by titanic forces unknown.
By this point I had turned a few bowls that were out of true but the "80 (and up) grit gouge" allowed me to finish and I was hooked enough on bowl turning to get a new lathe, a Nova DVR, which I have been happy with.
The Delta continued to collect dust. Then a few months ago I bought a used Delta contractor saw on Craigslist. I wanted to set it up with care so having heard that Harbor Freight had a usable dial indicator for about $30 I picked one up for use on that project. When done with that I thought why not see if I could use it to see if I could learn anything more about why the lathe was messed up.
Checking the shaft I found it was very good. So that meant that the bearings must be ok too. Then it hit me: what about the face of the head stock nut? I checked that and found that while it was out "only" a couple of thou' but moving out a few inches just might be magnifying that to the 25 thousandths wobble I found on the edge of the 6" face plate.
Trueing the nut was pretty simple. Using the dial indicator on the edge of the 6" faceplate I found the high point. Next I imagined the the backside of the face plate as if it was the face of a clock with a hand pointing at the high point. I had marked that high point with a sharpie marker and I now marked the nut where that imaginary clock hand woud be attached. Next I removed the face plate and nut.
I have a granite machinists reference block that I purchased many years ago on sale for trueing the bottoms of Stanley planes, japanese waterstones & etc. If you don't have one of these then any smooth true suface, like the ways of the lathe you are working on, would work. I put a piece of 220 grit wet or dry sand paper on the block with it running right up to the edge. Taking the nut with the side that faces away from the headstock face down and the sharpie mark pointing towards the sandpaper covered block I progressively sanded the nut face just a little bit, meaning that the face of the nut closest to the sharpie mark was sanded the most and the opposite side the least but that the last passes were over the whole nut face.
I remounted the nut and faceplate and checked ith the indicator. The 25 thousandths was now 15. A few more tries and it was down to 2. I think I can live with that!
So now I have another lathe. The guy I got it from had told me that the Delta 1460 was the lathe that the legendary Bob Stocksdale had used for all his work. I recently saw a picture of Bob at his 1460 and noticed that he had blocked up the headtock with steel U shaped channel to give him what looked like 18-20" of swing instead of the original 12 and that he had had a tool rest with an extended post made up for his banjo. The rest for the dvr with its longer post would allow 16"for the Delta using that rest or I could get a Robust Comfort rest with an even longer post and take it to close to 20". And then maybe a Leeson variable speed motor from Craft Supplies.....in any case it feels good to have finally made it a useful machine again!
 

Bill Boehme

Administrator
Staff member
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Messages
12,884
Likes
5,168
Location
Dalworthington Gardens, TX
Website
pbase.com
Not being able to get something round would not be the result of run-out because that does not cause the axis of rotation to wobble. It would however, mean that there could be a problem if something were remomed from a chuck and later reinstalled, that having the alignment the same would be unlikely. Here are some possible causes of your problem:

  1. The wood has some moisture and warps as it is being turned -- very likely with purchased blanks that are waxed.
  2. The wood is "reaction wood" -- from a limb or leaning tree.
  3. The lathe is shaking because it is not adequately anchored or because the wood has not been balanced.
  4. There is free play in the bearings -- if you can wiggle the spindle, that is not good.
  5. Something on the lathe is loose such as the tool rest base or headstock.
  6. If the chuck or faceplate is not seated firmly against the register surface it might slowly shift position. If the spindle does not have a register surface to align the faceplate or chuck, that is a big problem. Threads do not provide precision alignment.
I may think of some other possibilities if none of the above are the cause of the problem.
 

Bill Boehme

Administrator
Staff member
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Messages
12,884
Likes
5,168
Location
Dalworthington Gardens, TX
Website
pbase.com
BTW, a lathe can have a bent spindle even right out of the box. I had a Delta 1440 that had a crooked spindle when I received it. With a chuck mounted on it, it meant that there was always some unwanted vibration, but that only meant that the end of the spindle was coning around the actual axis of rotation. There is a situation where this would be a problem: pen turning, because the end of the mandrel would be coning about the live center and could not easily be lined up with it except by slightly bending the mandrel near the tapered shank.

Delta sent me a new spindle along with new bearings and snap rings. After swapping things out, the spindle ran true.
 

odie

TOTW Team
Joined
Dec 22, 2006
Messages
7,072
Likes
9,471
Location
Panning for Montana gold, with Betsy, the mule!
[6]If the chuck or faceplate is not seated firmly against the register surface it might slowly shift position. If the spindle does not have a register surface to align the faceplate or chuck, that is a big problem. Threads do not provide precision alignment.

As I read this list, it occurred to me that those plastic, or synthetic spindle washers designed to make chuck removal easier could contribute to alignment issues. I don't know if this is true, but wondering if anyone has checked the runout with and without these washers to check?

ooc
 

Bill Boehme

Administrator
Staff member
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Messages
12,884
Likes
5,168
Location
Dalworthington Gardens, TX
Website
pbase.com
As I read this list, it occurred to me that those plastic, or synthetic spindle washers designed to make chuck removal easier could contribute to alignment issues. I don't know if this is true, but wondering if anyone has checked the runout with and without these washers to check?

ooc

That is why I do not use them. And, I have never had a chuck too tight to remove just using the chuck key as a lever and the spindle locked.
 

odie

TOTW Team
Joined
Dec 22, 2006
Messages
7,072
Likes
9,471
Location
Panning for Montana gold, with Betsy, the mule!
That is why I do not use them. And, I have never had a chuck too tight to remove just using the chuck key as a lever and the spindle locked.

I don't use them either, but I have one somewhere. I believe I got it when I had a Northwood lathe. On that one, IIRC, there was no way to lock the spindle, so it was a problem to break loose faceplates (This was in the 1980's, and prior to owning my first chuck).

I'm headed back out to the shop shortly, and I'll try to remember to look for the spindle washer. Will use a dial indicator, and will give the run-out with, and without the washer.........

ooc
 

Bill Boehme

Administrator
Staff member
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Messages
12,884
Likes
5,168
Location
Dalworthington Gardens, TX
Website
pbase.com
If the washer is super thin like some of the Kevlar or Mylar washers that I have seen, any misalignment probably would not amount to anything worth mentioning. Some people have used other things like milk jugs to make washers and that might contribute to a problem. Also, removing and reinstalling a chuck when using a washer that is not uniform in thickness could result in a slight change in alignment. We're not talking about big changes, but for some operations like making a lidded box, it might be enough to mess up a close fit. Even if there were some washers that didn't introduce any potential angular alignment error, they are unnecessary. Another thought that I have had about using plastic washers is that some plastics are compressible and that would have the potential to make it harder to remove a chuck if it was tightened down with excessive force.
 

hockenbery

Forum MVP
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Apr 27, 2004
Messages
8,590
Likes
4,885
Location
Lakeland, Florida
Website
www.hockenberywoodturning.com
That is why I do not use them. And, I have never had a chuck too tight to remove just using the chuck key as a lever and the spindle locked.

I don't use washers either.
I was taught in the beginning to tighten faceplates and chucks onto the spindle with a small force. Then it comes off with the same force.
The chuck key is what I use too.
A bad mistake is to start the lathe with a not tight chuck and have the lathe tighten it up more than you want. Then they can be hard to get off.

One thing I have done is use thick wooden washer turned as spacer when using a chuck that did not have as much thread depth as the lathe spindle.
Worked better than having the top of the spindle against the chuck body. This was in demo situations.
 
Last edited:

Bill Boehme

Administrator
Staff member
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Messages
12,884
Likes
5,168
Location
Dalworthington Gardens, TX
Website
pbase.com
One other thought that just occurred to me that might be worse than the flatness of the plastic washer is that plastic is soft enough to have some "give". This would be most likely with softer plastic like a washer made from a milk carton. The forces during cutting (especially if the wood is hard and the diameter is large) could result in flexing between the chuck and spindle since there is not hard metal-to-metal contact at the register surface. The actual wobble might only be a few thousandths measured at the outer diameter, but any wobble would be enough to get chattering started. Engineers refer to flexing under load as "force compliance" and it is usually something that is undesirable in rotating machinery where accurate positioning in drilling/milling/cutting is the goal.
 
Last edited:

odie

TOTW Team
Joined
Dec 22, 2006
Messages
7,072
Likes
9,471
Location
Panning for Montana gold, with Betsy, the mule!
Back in from the shop now.......couldn't find that plastic washer, so no runout measurements.

I did measure the runout on my spindle, and it's less than .001", and about .002" with one of my 3" screw center faceplates installed. (measured at the rim of the faceplate)

Back during the time I did use the washer, I was still having quite a few catches and using tools that weren't as sharp as they could have been. These things tend to tighten the faceplate.

Maybe someone else can measure their runout with, and without the washer.

ooc
 

john lucas

AAW Forum Expert
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
8,321
Likes
3,576
Location
Cookeville, TN
I purchased a couple of the plastic/nylon whatever they are, back when I had my old home modified lathe. When I got my new powermatic extra length of the spindle meant some chucks wouldn't seat so I used them. I couldn't detect any extra runout. It did seem like I might have had some extra vibration but it's hard to tell.
I made my self a metal spacer and use that now. I really can't tell a difference. I have on rare occasions had problems with the chuck sticking but I find that most of the time if I do what was mentioned above, that is to snug the chuck up and then use the wrench to tighten it just a little more, that it rarely takes more than that much pressure to get it off.
 
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Messages
4
Likes
0
Location
Redwood Valley,Ca.
Yeah Bill I pretty much eliminated your first five reasons and hit paydirt with number six. Both the inboard nuts, the one from the original headstock and the one I bought on Ebay looked rough, especially the latter. I first tried just taking out the irregularities by sanding them on 220 paper on the granite reference plate but it made no difference. I was pretty careful to not rock the nut as I passed it over the paper. I guess I just smoothed out the bumps and dings but left it such that the back of the face plate was still not sitting fully against the nut and was instead partly supported by the threads. I should note here that I sanded the rear registering side of the face plate flat and the front too, though there is no way for me to know they are parallel. The back was pretty good but the front took a few passes to eliminate a slight dip in one area. I will also add that I had later purchased chucks and they ran similarly out of true. My final solution does seem to have sanded the nut to where it is parrallel to any registering surface. I have tried chucks as well as the much mentioned 6" original Delta faceplate too. While they don't present as perfect a surface to read with the dial indicator the wobble was visible with them mounted before and it has disappeared. I also compared my Cole Jaws mounted fully tightened down to the minimum in a G3 chuck in the Dvr and Delta and they appeared similar, though on both they look similarly ugly. I guess since they are used for a final subtraction the tolerances don't need to be very strict and perhaps they run better with something mounted rather than tightened down empty.
I am left wondering what distorted the faces of these nuts. All I can think of is just many years of the same foreces being applied, kind of like a series of tiny hammer blows that slowly moved the metal away from the side that bore the brunt of the force.
 

Bill Boehme

Administrator
Staff member
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Messages
12,884
Likes
5,168
Location
Dalworthington Gardens, TX
Website
pbase.com
I once used a broken carbide end mill as a cutter held in Vise Grips to true up a steel faceplate. Not exactly high tech machining, but it did work. I finished by using Carborundum sandpaper to polish off the tool marks. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
 
Back
Top