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Instant Gratification - Finishes

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by Joe Sheble, Nov 16, 2020.

  1. Russ Braun

    Russ Braun

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    I have a can of Sam Maloof oil that I used on my last piece; love the natural look to it. I’ve had it a while, still looks good! State of California has probably ruined the formula by now; that’s how old the can is, lol!!
     
  2. Lamar Wright

    Lamar Wright

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    Howdy Odie.....Our Home Depot and Lowe's only has the 275 voc Watco Danish oil. I'm thinking that Watco is only making the 275 Voc now? I would like to find some with 450 voc though. If you find a vendor that has Danish oil with 275 VOC please let me know. :D........Happy Turning my friend.
     
  3. Lamar Wright

    Lamar Wright

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    Howdy Odie.....Our Home Depot and Lowe's only has the 275 voc Watco Danish oil. I'm thinking that Watco is only making the 275 Voc now? I would like to find some with 450 voc though. If you find a vendor that has Danish oil with 275 VOC please let me know. :D........Happy Turning my friend.
     
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  4. odie

    odie

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    Hiya Lamar :D

    (I don't know if that's a typo I've highlighted in your post above, but it looks like the 275 VOC is currently readily available.)

    I suggest you go to the local Home Depot, Lowes, and whatever else is in your locale, and check the local website for that store. (not the main corporate site, but the local store's website) From there, you can check the inventory at that particular store. When I was checking Home Depot, they were only listing 275 VOC in gallons, and were out of stock for the pints. The Lowes were listing the gallons at 275 VOC, but didn't say what the 8 pints they had on hand were. I was going to town anyway, and decided to check with my own eyes what those pints were.....and to my surprise all 8 pints were 450 VOC......so, that's when I made the snap decision to buy them all!

    At this point, I don't know if Watco is changing their formula over to 275 VOC, but as you do, I suspect they very well may be doing that.

    I wouldn't order any Watco Danish Oil Natural online from any source, unless it specifically says it's 450 VOC.

    -----odie-----
     
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  5. Ron Solfest

    Ron Solfest

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    Lamar,
    When I talked with Watco (Rustoleum now I believe) they said they make two types of Danish Oil, one for low VOC (product #242217) and the 'normal' 450 VOC. The 450 VOC has product number 65731, as long as you make sure that's what you order you should get what you want. I recently ordered from hardwareworld.com and received the correct product, it was also the cheapest I've ever paid (just over $30/gal, shipping was high so I ordered two gallons and received them for <$35 each after shipping if I recall).
     
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  6. odie

    odie

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    Hi Ron.......:D

    @Lamar Wright

    I just got off the phone with Rustoleum, the main corporate office for Watco Danish Oil. The lady I talked to said she is unaware of the 450 VOC being discontinued, however some locations may not accept it for re-sale. I hope that is correct, because I've really liked the original formula.

    I'm speculating here, but it is possible that some distributors like Home Depot may only sell the 275 VOC, in order to avoid an accidental shipment of the product to a restricted area.

    (It's OK that I knee-jerked into buying the 8 pints of the Danish Oil Natural.......I'll use it all up eventually ! ;) )

    -----odie-----
     
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  7. Lamar Wright

    Lamar Wright

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    That's exactly the way I feel Odie....I would not order online unless it specified 450VOC.
     
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  8. Lamar Wright

    Lamar Wright

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    Hey, thanks Ron for this information. I'll check out Hardwareworld and thanks for including the product number. Happy turning! :)
     
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  9. Ron Solfest

    Ron Solfest

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    Odie - to change the subject slightly, my typical application of Watco has been to flood the surface, wait ~30min and flood again, sometimes I've flooded the surface 3-4 times (waiting 20-30min in between) and then wipe completely off. Usually wipe again after ~30min, and sometimes (like with oak) wipe a few more times over a number of hours. This process hasn't been exact, but basically involves soaking the bowl several times with Watco and then rubbing off. Of late I usually "beall buff" after about a week or so as well.

    My question is about my apparent waste of Danish Oil. I believe you lightly coat once and are then done. Is that correct? Am I getting anything for all that extra DO, or does your single application hold up just as well over time?
     
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  10. Russell Nugent

    Russell Nugent

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    Traditional danish oil
     
  11. odie

    odie

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    Hello Ron.....:D

    Yes, you are correct that I've been using one coat of DO for many years.....soaking it good, then soaking it again within 1/2 hour in the initial application of DO. Lately, I've been experimenting with a second application of DO about 1-2 weeks later. Prior to the second coat of DO, I'm using steel wool before soaking it again. The jury is still out if that is seeing any real substantial benefits. It does appear the steel wool is helping, but the second coat of DO may, or may not be necessary for all species of wood.....? o_O

    -----odie-----
     
  12. RichColvin

    RichColvin

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    Love to see more about this. Is there a write up?
     
  13. Ron Solfest

    Ron Solfest

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    Hello Odie :)

    Sounds like you’ve been doing what I’m gravitating towards. Namely, soak once, wait 20-30min and soak again, then wipe off after 30min, wipe again every ~30min as required.

    I mistakenly thought you were doing one light application (no soaking) and was curious if I was wasting DO. My mistake.

    I had been soaking a few more times (in same ~session) but have been drifting towards less soakings. I think I’ll stick with the single coat of two soakings.

    FYI, a few years ago I tried adding additional DO coats (days apart, not week apart; also didn’t use steel wool). Gave up on that as I didn’t really notice a benefit, unless I put on ~5-6 coats and had more build.

    Thanks for your help. Happy Thanksgiving
    Ron
     
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  14. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

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    I had been using 3 coats Watco but have started using only two for good results

    @odie I looked at Amazon and they have both, the low Voc says that in the picture and item # all start with a 2, the regular starts with a 65 but there is no indication of what the VOC is. Kinda pricy now with 20/qt and 51/gal. Oh I had a popup saying the price at ACE IS 13.48/QT
     
  15. odie

    odie

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    I just checked my receipt from Lowes, and I paid $8.98ea for the 8 pints I just bought.

    =======================================================

    Gerald, (or anyone who cares to respond) are you seeing any real detectable difference between one, and two coats of Danish Oil? I really can't detect any difference. The reason I started doing the second coat of DO, is I started doing some steel wool after the first coat, and that noticeably dulls the sheen a bit. Even so, I haven't been able to detect if the steel wool treatment made any difference at all with the final finished surface, after the Beall buffing process was completed.

    Note: The reason I started this steel wool routine after the Danish Oil, is no matter what light source I tried, some of the finest of sanding marks (I'm nearly always sanding out to 600gt) wasn't apparent to the eye, until after the first coat of DO was applied. This was/is a real bugger for me, because even though these sanding marks didn't show up unless the light reflected to your eye at a certain angle, I continue to strive for the most perfect final finish I can get.....o_O

    -----odie-----
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
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  16. Lamar Wright

    Lamar Wright

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    Odie.....what I do is sand my bowls to 600gt then one or two coats of sanding sealer then de nib with 3M gray pad. Put the bowl under a bright light to check for fine scratches, I also use magnification sometimes. Most of the time I've been applying two coats of DO..........however, lately I have just been applying one coat of DO and can't tell much difference? Last step is the Beall buffing process.
     
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  17. odie

    odie

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    Howdy Lamar......:D

    Thanks for responding. Couple questions for you:

    Have you used natural light after first coat of DO?

    Who is your source for the 3M grey pad? I think I will give that a try for an experiment.

    Have you used the 3M grey pad in a random orbit fashion?

    Have you tried 0000 steel wool, instead of the grey 3M pad? If so, what is your findings?

    I guess I should state that with my current process, the 600gt finish w/0000 steel wool under normal lights, the sanding marks are not visible, except under extreme scrutiny and using the light that catches the surface at exactly the right angle. I'd like to change that, even though my customers don't see the sanding marks under normal room lighting....and, neither do I.

    -----odie-----
     
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  18. Tim Connell

    Tim Connell

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    Odie, I've not tested the grey 3M pad against steel wool, but I have used the white extensively and just switched back to using 0000 steel wool.

    According to one site, the grey is roughly equivalent to 00 steel wool and the white ~ 0000.

    I should also mention that I'm using polymerized tung oil for finish, not DO. My method of application is to flood on then lightly wipe off with paper towels. Between 4-6 coats, buffing with steel wool (or 3M pads) between coats.

    I used the white for a long time, but grew frustrated with it as more and more scratches appeared with its use. Finally switched back to steel wool and all the finish scratches disappeared.

    Obviously, tung oil is a softer finish than DO, so that may have been a factor in the scratching I was seeing, but for me, even the white 3M pad is too rough for my methods.
     
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  19. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

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    Odie I have not tried one coat but it would have to be done on the same wood and Beall buffed. May have to try an experiment.
     
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  20. Lamar Wright

    Lamar Wright

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    Hi Odie......:D

    After my first coat of DO I have inspected for noticeable sanding marks in natural light and in most cases I don't see any........not with these old eyes any way......:D. I have one of those round Magnified desk lights that I used to detect sanding marks in my pens. I put on10 coats of CA and after the final buffing I checked each pen with the magnified light. I incorporated the use of the mag light for bowl inspection. I'm like you Odie, I strive for a perfect finish.........:D

    My source for the 3M pads is Home Depot.......

    I do use the 3M pads in an orbit fashion with the lathe speed set at a low setting turning about 100 rpm or less. Also the same setting when using 0000 steel wool...... I also do a lot of hand sanding also.


    To be quite honest Odie, I really don't find any difference between steel wool and the 3M pads. I've read where other turners have experimented with these two products and came up with the same conclusion.

    Happy Turning .....:D
     
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  21. odie

    odie

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    I'm also experimenting with some steel wool hot glued to an old sanding disc, and using a very slow speed drill..... This is still in the experimental stage, but it looks very promising at this point. :D

    -----odie-----
     
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  22. Lamar Wright

    Lamar Wright

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    Let my know how it turns out for you my friend. Experimenting is one of the fun parts of wood turning.....:D
     
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  23. William J Smith

    William J Smith

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    To any of you who make your own finishing blend, most of the homemade finishes call for "1/3 varnish." I see several brands that seem to be a blend of ingredients. Is there a difference between solvent-based and oil-based varnish? Do you have a recommended brand that you use in your homemade finish?
     
  24. Dean Center

    Dean Center

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    Not yet, but we're gonna work one up.
     
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  25. Steve Tiedman

    Steve Tiedman

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    Hi William. Generally speaking, oil-based varnishes and water-based varnishes both have solvents. In oil-based varnish the solvent is usually some petroleum distillate, mineral spirits is common. In water-based varnish, water is the solvent. In both varieties, the solvent is in the mix in different quantities to mainly make the product more workable in application, making it brushable, or wipeable, or sprayable. The solvents always evaporate from the recipe, contributing to the final curing of the finish.

    Folks making their own blends are normally doing so with the oil-based varnishes. There is no shortage of brands of oil-bases varnish, commons brands such as Minwax which can be found in just about any hardware or home improvement store in the USA. General Finishes and a few other brands are available at woodworking specialty stores. Is there much of a difference between brands of oil-based varnishes? That is a fine question, and I bet debates could go on for hours, so it seems to come down more to brand loyalty than an objective examination of the ingredients and some sort of controlled side-by-side testing.

    If you have a brand of oil-based varnish (something that is brushed on, not the pre-diluted varnishes such as "wiping varnish) that you've had success with previously, start with that. Mix it 1:1:1 with pure tung oil and mineral spirits. This was a blend I've used for years. Lots of oil to penetrate the wood, and just enough resins to seal up the surface without creating a thick plastic layer, and the mineral spirits makes it thin enough for easy wiping application. Experiment- buy some kitchen measuring spoons to keep in the shop, and mix 1 tablespoon of each ingredient in a small jar. (Some small empty condiment jar out of your refrigerator, or an empty baby food jar... I have no issue buying the most disgusting flavor of baby food, dumping it, and using the jar for finishes.) Sometimes woodworking stores will sell small plastic bottles that are okay for use with oil-based, solvent finishes. Or try boiled linseed oil instead of pure tung oil, it will cure a bit faster than the pure tung oil. Tried & True Danish Oil is a polymerized linseed oil- cooked instead of having metallic salts added to it to speed curing, this might be worth a try in the blend. And at the bottom of the first page of this thread I posted Sam Maloof's recipe, he'd been blending his own wiping varnishes for decades.

    Really, you can't goof this up as long as you are not trying to blend water-based and oil-based in the same container. Varnish, tung oil or linseed oil (or a bit of each), mineral spirits. Or, the easiest blend- mix 1:1 Minwax gloss Wiping Poly with pure tung oil and skip the mineral spirits, it's already in the wiping poly. Have fun with it.

    Steve.
     
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  26. William J Smith

    William J Smith

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    Steve:
    Thanks. Very helpful. I've got pure tung oil, Minwax gloss Wiping Poly and mineral spirits on the shelf. Guess it's time to start experimenting!
     
  27. Karl Loeblein

    Karl Loeblein

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    One of the quickest finishes that I’ve seen demonstrated is done by Mark Sillay. Near instant gratification. Try searching Mark Sillay and Parfix 3408 to find one of his videos.

    Suggest calling Mark to get near wholesale pricing on Parfix 3408 (non fuming wipe on CA glue) without having to buy a case of it. It last a long time so ask for the large bottle.

    http://www.marksillay.com
     
  28. Doug Freeman

    Doug Freeman

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    Typically solvent and oil based are the same thing. Some refer to “spirit varnish”, which is shellac, and comes from a long long time ago before oil based varnish existed. Some still refer to shellac as such, helping to confuse things.

    There are a lot of different formulas for the diy DO, that have floated around for many years. Look up Sam Maloof finish. If I remember correctly, 1/3 each of blo, RAW tung oil, and non-urethane varnish. Poly was not around when he created his finish, and today non-poly varnish is pretty much extinct. Lots of elbow grease with steel wool also.

    For diy DO, I use 1/3 blo (any brand), 1/3 poly (Minwax semigloss), 1/3 or less ms (any non “green” brand). I add 2-3% japan drier of the volume of blo to get it to dry faster. I mainly use it as a 1st and 2nd coat wetsanding to fill cracks, tearout areas, defects etc vs trying to dry sand them out. It is softer than poly and is easier to do the final finish sanding at hi grits dry with a drill after it cures a few days, then it gets a coat of poly.

    My dominant finish is ~1:1 MW sg poly and ms. Applied like DO, it provides more “body” than the DO mix and buffs up better. For those DO lovers, give the 1:1 poly a try if you want more “body”. Apply it the same - flood on, let soak for however long, keep adding to dry spots, etc, then wipe it all off.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
  29. Steve Tiedman

    Steve Tiedman

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    Hi Doug, in the last message on page one of this thread, I quoted Sam Maloof's two finish recipes and application process right from his book (he used both recipes on every project), here is the recipe for the first finish blend he used-
    "...I use two finishes on every piece of furniture. The first consists of one-third urethane (semi-gloss), one-third raw tung oil, and one-third boiled linseed oil..."
    The recipe for his second blend is posted as well. Note neither recipe shows additional thinner/solvent being used.

    I was just at my local Menard's store tonight (midwestern big box chain). On one side of the aisle, everything Minwax brand. On the other side, all of Rustoleum's brands, including Varithane "Spar Urethane". I've not researched the difference between urethane and polyurethane finishes, but, they exist. And spar would just indicate more oil than resin in the formula- more penetration, less film build. For you Watco users (A Rustoleum brand), Menard's in MN stocks all "max 450 VOC" Watco products. Mixwax Wiping Poly has even higher VOC than Watco, so lots of solvent to resins and oil in a can of Minwax Wiping Poly.

    Steve.
     
  30. Doug Freeman

    Doug Freeman

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    Steve, thanks for the correction, I guess urethane varnish did exist in Sam’s time. I had seen your post but could not remember where. I dint say his recipe used solvent, but mine does. I also dont use all the elbow grease and steel wool Sam did.

    If you find a reliable source on the difference between urethane and polyurethane as used in common varnish, please post. My opinion based on the info I have found is that they are essentially the same. Each mfr will have their urethane recipe, so they arent exactly the same, but my experience with different brands says the results are pretty much the same, especially when used in a non film building method. If you have reliable data showing spar varnish penetrates deeper please post the reference. I believe penetration is more related to viscosity vs the oil content. Thats what my research and experiments tell me anyway.

    Yeah Ive never used the ots version wipe on poly, always the standard version thinned down. About 1/2 the price of the pkg version.
     
  31. odie

    odie

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    Hi Lamar.......:)

    The steel wool attached to a used disc works, but not nearly as well as I'd hoped. :(

    I have ordered some Scotchbrite pads, and will continue experimenting with them.

    Here is a chart of the equivalent sandpaper values for the color of the Scotchbrite pads:

    Scotchbrite Grit Chart:

    7445 - White pad, called Light Duty Cleansing - (1000) 1200-1500 grit
    7448 - Light Grey, called Ultra Fine Hand - (600-800) 800 grit.
    6448 - Green (?), called Light Duty Hand Pad - (600) 600 grit
    7447 - Maroon pad, called General Purpose Hand - (320-400) 320 grit
    6444 - Brown pad, called Extra Duty Hand - (280-320) 240 grit
    7446 - Dark Grey pad, called Blending Pad (180-220) 150 grit
    7440 - Tan pad, called Heavy Duty Hand Pad - (120-150)
    Blue Scotch-Brite is considered to be about 1000 grit.

    (Note: The value inside the parentheses is directly from Scotchbrite, and the values after that are an estimate from another woodworker's evaluation and posted on the internet.)

    -----odie-----
     
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  32. Mark Jundanian

    Mark Jundanian

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    @odie , did Scotchbrite specify which grit scale they were referencing? It makes a big difference at these fine levels.
     
  33. Steve Tiedman

    Steve Tiedman

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    Hi Doug, I guess I didn't follow up here. Not being a chemical engineer-type of fellow, I agree with your statements above- for our purposes the end result from each mfr. is pretty much the same. VOC solvents evaporate, oils cure, and if the oil is carrying plastic in it, it contributes to the film of the cured oil (if allowed to build on the surface). I think you're right that the viscosity also is a variable, the thinner it is, the easier is can absorb/penetrate. Oils, in general, move be wicking action, if various oil "oops" moments in life have shown me- oil drops on the garage floor, a greasy cardboard pizza box, etc. I would expect a thinned oil finish to have an easier, quicker wood penetrating experience. But two wipes delivering the same volume of thinned and non-thinned oil based finish will result in less oil and more solvent penetrating the wood. It may penetrate easier, but extra applications will be needed to deliver the same amount of oil, if desired. Does that matter for our thin cross section, decorative woodturnings, or even interior furniture? Likely not. But it means something to wood that is in exterior environments, at lumber and timber thicknesses (over 2" nominal in the narrow dimension), where spar varnishes are designed for to contribute water resistance. That said, I have no idea how deep long oil spar varnish, or any user-thinned varnish will penetrate. And a quick web search netted no helpful info.

    I have no data to offer on spar varnishes penetrating deeper other than to offer spar varnish has more oil than resin, therefore it has the opportunity to penetrate more because of the higher oil content.

    I did come across a site that delves into urethane/polyurethane.
    https://refinishingfurniture.net/urethane-vs-polyurethane/

    For the general audience, Bob Flexner's book "Understanding Wood Finishing" is a great help in demystifying and using all the typical finish types we have at our disposal. Ch.10, Varnishes, explains "long" and "short" oil varnishes, long having more oil by volume to penetrate (such as spar, to offer better water resistance), and short which has more resin by volume to build a surface film. He also goes into typical solvents and their use. He does readily recommend mineral spirits for our uses, but reading on in that chapter I found that naphtha evaporates faster than mineral spirits, which makes me wonder how it would work for homemade oil finish blends. It might be worth experimenting with a very small quantity. But, it may not matter because even mineral spirits evaporates away faster than the oil it has thinned can cure.

    Here is a Flexner article from Popular Woodworking from a few months ago where he writes about the oils used in finishes-
    https://www.popularwoodworking.com/flexner-on-finishing-woodworking-blogs/oils-in-finishing/

    More Bob Flexner articles, click on the titles-
    https://muckrack.com/bob-flexner/articles

    Steve.
     
  34. Roger Wiegand

    Roger Wiegand

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    I've used the Maloof finish for decades now on both furniture and turnings, I've never found anything I thought looked better. I find three coats on bowls and such to be plenty. let them sit a couple weeks to harden then buff as, or if, desired.

    I've been playing with the Target EM1000 sealer/EM6000 finish and just bought some of the conversion varnish to try, initially looking to keep maple as light as possible. I'm also seeing the handwriting on the wall for the future of solvent-based finishes and am thinking about converting entirely to water based plus shellac, of course. My initial impressions are quite good. Because it is water based you need to remember to include a step in your sanding regime of dampening the surface with water to raise the grain before the final, light sanding pass. On small pieces I've been applying with a brush or actually wiping on with a bit of paper towel. It seems to work. I'm going to get a touch-up gun to make it more convenient to spray small projects. There is absolutely no comparison between the Minwax type water based finishes, which I've tried and hated, and these pro quality products.

    To the OP, the hard part about these longer processes is the start-up phase. If you can get past the first few weeks you will have a pipeline of things you are starting every day or week, and things you are finishing every day or week. It's like rough turning bowls, once you have 50-100 on the drying rack the urgency about getting the current one to dry in days or weeks rather than a year disappears. Pretty soon there are many hundreds dry and ready to final turn that have been drying for years. Likewise with finishing.
     
  35. Steve Tiedman

    Steve Tiedman

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    Roger, have you been using Maloof's finish according to his home brew recipe, or the ready to use stuff from a can that has his name on it?

    If the canned, who makes it, and does the label say what is in it?

    Not a bad idea you have there to future-proof yourself for likely future limitations on VOC solvents.
     
  36. Glenn Lefley

    Glenn Lefley

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    598
    Location (City & State):
    Invermere, British Columbia
    I don’t use steel wool anywhere in my shop as for fear of cross contamination of small particles that will blacken or rust later in other work. The 3m pads do the exact same job in my long carpenter career imho.
     
    Ron Solfest likes this.
  37. odie

    odie

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Messages:
    5,465
    Location (City & State):
    Panning for Montana gold, with Betsy, the mule!
    Mark......I'm having difficulty in finding this information directly from 3M......might be there, but I'm unsuccessful finding it.

    I'm finding the same information from several alternative sources, though:

    [​IMG]

    Maybe it's best to experiment, and find what works best for your purposes.

    -----odie-----
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2020
  38. odie

    odie

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Messages:
    5,465
    Location (City & State):
    Panning for Montana gold, with Betsy, the mule!
    7445 - White pad, called Light Duty Cleansing - (1000) 1200-1500 grit
    7448 - Light Grey, called Ultra Fine Hand - (600-800) 800 grit.
    6448 - Green (?), called Light Duty Hand Pad - (600) 600 grit
    7447 - Maroon pad, called General Purpose Hand - (320-400) 320 grit
    6444 - Brown pad, called Extra Duty Hand - (280-320) 240 grit
    7446 - Dark Grey pad, called Blending Pad (180-220) 150 grit
    7440 - Tan pad, called Heavy Duty Hand Pad - (120-150)
    Blue Scotch-Brite is considered to be about 1000 grit.


    Note: I've used the green pads mentioned here and am finding some success. These are the scouring pads available at the local grocery store. (The green pads are not listed on the chart in post #78, but are listed above here.) I've ordered some of the white and light grey pads, (which haven't arrived yet) for further experimentation.

    -----odie-----
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2020
  39. Doug Freeman

    Doug Freeman

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2019
    Messages:
    354
    Location (City & State):
    Lebanon, Missouri
    Roger Wiegand - I’ve been using Target products for ~10 years, EM 2000 varnish, EM6000 lacquer and EM9000 poly. I find them to be excellent products. If you are wanting to keep wood white as possible, em9000 poly is the best choice as it is water clear and does not yellow. I’m pretty sure em8000 has some yellowing to it - check their website to be sure. What are using the em1000 for, just to seal? All of the finishes are self sealing, and can also have dye added. Due to these characteristics I never really saw a need for the sealer. You may have read this in another thread - the finishes work great but like all wb finishes there is no chatoyance. They look very lifeless and drab to me. A good coat of shellac 1st works pretty well but still not as good as shellac or solvent finishes on there own.
     
  40. Bob Sheppard

    Bob Sheppard

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2017
    Messages:
    154
    Location (City & State):
    Wanaque, NJ
    I saw him do a demo almost 2 years ago, and was very impressed with his use of Parfix. I meant to give him a call, but forgot. Thanks for the reminder.
     

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