Modifying a wet grinder to work better for turners?

[rsser]

I'm not sold on wet grinders but have acquired one to play around with and do some tests on. See pic attached. Guess this is a Tormek knock-off but haven't checked closely.

What surprises me is how awkward it is for turning tools. Bench chisels or plane irons with a 25 - 30 degree bevel, fine. Scrapers at say 80 degrees you need to be about 7' tall to see what's happening at the edge.

You can on this model put the guide bar at the back for a horizontal mount and a better view (after lifting the 36 lb thing and rotating it 180), but expert advice is that the wheel should be coming at the edge, not away from it, and this unit doesn't have a reverse switch. And how sound is that advice I wonder.

Have people done mods to address the angle of view problem? The obvious one would be to get a horizontal guide bar at the front, either by moving the horizontal mounts to the front or by drilling through the vertical mounts. Another option would be a tall free-standing rest in front of the wheel but I'd be running out of bench depth where I want to put the thing.

What does the brains trust think?

 

[Richard Jones]

My Tormek is set up 180 deg from the way your picture shows, and it stays that way for everything. Chisels, gouges, scissors, knives, etc. Some of the operations go against what the instuctions say, but do whatever works for you. An additional bar set up would be great if you have the $$, as you could leave the gouge set up for the front, and scrapers at the top.

I rarely sharpen turning tools on the Tormek any more, as I keep the left side of my slow-speed dry grinder set up with a tool rest. It's quick to change from a scraper to a skew in this configuration, much slower on the Tormek. The right side usually has my Wolverine long arm in it for bowl and spindle gouges.

Would be glad to post pics of the Tormek "in action" if you want. I have to do a bunch of knives and scissors today anyway, can set it up for the skew, gouges, etc., no problem.

Hope this helps?

Rich

 

[hughie]

I guess free standing is the simplest

Ern,
Probably free standing would be the easiest, much the same way other grinding jigs are set up.
Then like the others the handle would be pointing toward the floor,giving you a clear view of the grinding and maintaining the correct rotary direction.

 

[hockenbery]

great for Skews and knives for jointer and planners.

For other turning tools it is too slow and gives too fine an edge.

I know a half dozen turners who own tormeks.
none of them use it when turning.

For anyone starting turning who has a tormek, it is just about the finest sharpening system around. it will sharpen turning tools until you can get a grinder with 60 grit wheels.
-Al

 

[rsser]

Thanks guys.

Rich, no need. I get it.

Read somewhere the Tormek was orig designed for knives and at the top of the wheel you get the biggest margin for wheel wear while clearing the case.

FWIW, I read the full report of Farrance's study comparing the performance of a dry ground with a wet ground/honed spindle gouge and the latter was clearly superior. Having dry ground my tools since beginning the game, and being quite happy with the results, I've become interested in eg whether Farrance's findings would be applicable to scrapers and bowl gouges.

 

[Gordon Seto]

...but expert advice is that the wheel should be coming at the edge, not away from it, and this unit doesn't have a reverse switch.

I believe the wheel on the model you have is quite coarse as compared to Tormek. The direction of the wheel affects mostly the efficiency of sharpening. With a coarse wheel, I don't think this will be a big problem.

I convert back to Tormek instead of dry grinder. With the TTS-100 set up jig, it is faster and easier than Wolverine refreshing a grind. The initial set up is slow, especially on a skew. But if I am using one of the many grinds of the TTS-100, it is as fast as any jig with less wear on the tool steel. The edge is sharper. I don't know whether the edge holds really longer than a dry grinder as Tormek claimed because it is difficult to prove.

The down side of wet grinding is dumping the waste water in freezing winter. I am afraid pouring the heavy sediment into the house drain would settle in the traps. The other inconvenience is using the tools at extended classes or Club function. It takes time to bring them back to the Tormek setting.

This is just one of the ways of sharpening tools. I have heard that Nick Cook and Richard Raffan have switched to Tormek. Of course switching to Tormek won't turn me into a master like them.

 

[Mjonesrdg]

what I did

This is a Jet "tormek" with wolverine attachment. Advantages: Control, sharpness, no sparks, wide wheel, excellent visability, low cost. To clean the water tray I simply wipe it out with a damp rag. Disadvantages:
It's good for sharpening or putting a new edge on a tool, but too slow for changing a bevel or grinding a new shape.

 

[Bernie Weishapl]

I use my tormek all the time for turning tools. It doesn't take that much longer sharpening with it.

 

[Gordon Seto]

Mjonesrdg,

That is a neat idea adapting the Wolverine on your Jet "Tormek". Does the water tray has any clearance problem when you swing the Varigrind?

I think I would like the other way around, using the Tormek jig with dry grinder to speed up the shaping.

 

[MichaelMouse]

I'd go dry. Last thing I want in my way is something filled with water to make paper or spill and corrode. I know those things are expensive, and you feel obligated to use them for everything, but I've got the Makita for the flat and a two-wheeler for the round. Total cost still less than the Tormek, and the Makita is drained and stored when not in use. The planer knife jig is better on the Makita, too.

 

[rsser]

I didn't start this as grinding technique question, and wonder why so many posters have taken it as one.

Thanks anyway to those who responded.

Suspect Hughie is right.

 

[Steve Worcester]

I got a Tormek early on and adapted it to use with the Wolverine system. While I now only use the tormek to sharpen scissors, it does give you one mans idea of adaptations.

http://www.turningwood.com/tormek.htm

 

[Alex Yeilding]

You can on this model put the guide bar at the back for a horizontal mount and a better view (after lifting the 36 lb thing and rotating it 180), but expert advice is that the wheel should be coming at the edge, not away from it, and this unit doesn't have a reverse switch. And how sound is that advice I wonder.

I think you are asking the right question there! I don't know the source of that advice or the rationale, but Tormek (who presumably knows a bit about wet stone sharpening) says to use the horizontal position, with the stone turning away from the tool edge, when sharpening turning tools. (Instructions for SVD-185 and SVS-50). They make the point that this sharpens a little more slowly, but that you get better visibility of the tool, since water is not running over the edge.

 

[Alex Yeilding]

This is a Jet "tormek" with wolverine attachment. Advantages: Control, sharpness, no sparks, wide wheel, excellent visability, low cost. To clean the water tray I simply wipe it out with a damp rag. Disadvantages:
It's good for sharpening or putting a new edge on a tool, but too slow for changing a bevel or grinding a new shape.

I found a key when reshaping rather than just sharpening is to dress the wheel. The "grading stone" does not do the job of bringing it back to coarse. You need to use the diamond dresser, and grind straight from there. It's still not like grinding with a coarse dry wheel, but I think you will be pleased with the difference; it is MUCH more aggressive immediately after grading.

 

[rsser]

I think you are asking the right question there! I don't know the source of that advice or the rationale, but Tormek (who presumably knows a bit about wet stone sharpening) says to use the horizontal position, with the stone turning away from the tool edge, when sharpening turning tools. (Instructions for SVD-185 and SVS-50). They make the point that this sharpens a little more slowly, but that you get better visibility of the tool, since water is not running over the edge.

That's interesting. Thanks. You sure do getter a better view.

The instructions that came with the Scheppach say that except for scissors and shears, all sharpening should be done with the wheel coming towards the edge.

 

[odie]

I have had, and use this Grizzly slow speed 10" wet grinder since the late 1980's. It's been in continuous use, because I'm a believer in it's usefulness for putting a sharper edge on bowl gouges.

I always use the 1825 rpm Delta 8" grinder to put a basic edge on my bowl gouges. I currently have the Norton 80gt blue wheels.....expensive, but cool running and very aggressive. The basic grind is done no differently than most of you are doing it. I use a wolverine jig, with V arm, and vari-grind jig. From the Delta grinder, the gouge goes to the Grizzly wet grinder, and after that's done, I use a slip stone, ceramic stone, or a round diamond hone to clean up the top edge, or inside the flute.

I've found that the slow speed wet grinder hones a sharper edge on bowl gouges than that which comes directly from the Delta dry 8" grinder. This is NOT hocus-pocus here, because I've done the testing to see if it's true. Take any hard cutting wood and do a test cut with your gouge both ways......I've found the wet grinder produces a sharper edge, which makes a better, cleaner cut.

I no longer use the wet grinder for scrapers, but it does make a sharper cutting edge on gouges and skews. I do all of the wet grinding free hand......it's quick and easy. One thing that MUST be realized, however, is it isn't necessary to wet grind the entire bevel......only the cutting edge itself needs to be honed this way. The object is NOT to shape, or maintain the shape of the bevel......it IS to make the very tip of the cutting edge as sharp as can be done.......nothing more. Over time, there will be a groove (or two!) ground into the surface of the wet grinder wheel. I don't bother to dress them out, because I feel the grooves only make it easier to hone the cutting surface of the gouges where most of the cutting takes place (toward the leading edge). For each time you regrind an edge on the dry grinder, you can hone, and re-hone a gouge several times on the slow speed wet grinder, before it's necessary to return to the dry grinder again.

Even though my wet grinder wheel has worn-in grooves, I've always maintained a couple of places where the flat surface remains. I use these for skews and shop knives.

Can anyone tell me for sure what grit the Tormek and Jet wet wheels are? I just ran a search check, and I think the Tormek is 250 grit......Jet doesn't say. Anyway, my 10" wheel is 200 grit.....so, I guess the 250 grit ought to put just a little finer edge on bowl gouges than mine does......but, there's probably not a whole lot of difference in practical application......?

The reason I don't use the wet grinder for scrapers, is I feel it doesn't help, or add to overall scraper performance. I can only guess as to why this is, and my best guess is it's too slow a speed, and too cool to add to the burr. I'd be willing to bet that the dry grinder's faster surface speed and resulting heat make the burr more pliable while grinding an edge.....adding to it. Anyway, the last time I used my wet grinder for scrapers, is probably 15 or 20yrs ago.

I just went out to the shop, because I'm curious as to how big the diameter of the Grizzly 10" wheel is now. It's about 8 3/4" diameter now, so you can see that these wheels last quite some time.......especially since it only takes a second to hone just the very tip of the cutting edge......not the whole bevel.

I don't worry about the water in the trough during cold weather, because my shop is never below freezing temperatures. As you can see, my wet grinder is a pretty dirty/dusty affair. Seeing as how the wheel is wet, and I splash water when adding to the trough, and airborne sanding dust sticks to it.....that's just the way it is! This doesn't bother me much, because I'm not a cleanliness nut in my shop anyway! (I am an organized fanatic, though! Ha!) When sludge builds up, I simply reach down in there with something to scrape the bulk of it out......no problem, it's quick and easy.

I do put some oil on the bushings, and grease on the worm gears once in awhile......just to keep things running like they should.

comments?

otis of cologne

PS: To rsser......I hope you don't mind very much that this thread has taken on a life of it's own. That's quite often the case with these online forums, I guess you know!

 

[rsser]

Yes, a life of it's own.

There's how keen the edge is; there's also how durable it is.

For keen-ness, taking a point from Lee's great book on sharpening, you are talking about the intersection of two smooth planes. So in principle a wet ground bevel with a lapped top should produce a keener edge on a scraper. On the other hand, an included angle of say 80 degrees is likely to perform differently from say a bench chisel angle of 25 degrees, so maybe keen-ness is not such an issue for us. On the other other hand, our turning tools usually engage with the grain in several different orientations in rapid succession* compared with flatware tools, and the question is 'what difference if any does this make to the value of keen-ness and to durability'?

The AWT article recently published indicated that a fine burr turned on a lapped top scraper cuts more cleanly than a dry ground edge .... but here the grain orientation is constant.

* Eg. hollowing a bowl coming around the 'corner': end-grain, side-grain and long-grain

 

[KEW]

I have heard that Nick Cook and Richard Raffan have switched to Tormek. Of course switching to Tormek won't turn me into a master like them.

Just for the record, Nick Cook does use the Tormek for his skews but not normally for other tools. In his shop he has a dry grinder he uses for the other tools. Often, he will use the Tormek for everything when doing a demo or a show. I asked him about it and he said he doesn't want to travel with both systems and he opts to use the Tormek on gouges rather than use the dry grinder on his skews. Of course, he free-hands either.