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Raptor setup tools

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Good morning all. I know this may sound simple, but I am having trouble understanding tool angles when using my raptor setup jigs and vari-grind sharpening tool.
According to the sharpening video with Doug Thompson, using a 1 3/4 TSO for a tool is standard. When I use that TSO and say a 50° Raptor jig, my final grind angle does not match the raptor angle as identified. It is off by several degrees.
Should I be using a different TSO with the Raptor setup jig?

Thanks for the help. Looking forward to future conversations

Mike
 
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I don't think there is a standard "tool stick out" length. 1 3/4" and 2" are common, but I've seen other dimensions used. The Raptor tools will have been designed around a specific stick out length, probably 2". Check the instructions/website/customer service.
 
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Thanks John and Mark. I suspected as much as you both described, but needed confirmation. I also watched a video from Lyle Jamieson (
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sTx5SbGDJI&t=15s
)
that has some good information on the wing angle and front angle. The key it would seem is as John suggests determine what you want (in my case probably a longer TSO) and then just dont change your setup.

Thanks again
 
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It looks like 1 3/4” for 6” grinding wheels and 2” for 8” wheels per Craft Supply website.
 

john lucas

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I originally went with 1 3/4" because I thought when myngouge got short i still.use the wolverine. With the new CBN wheels and the way I'm grinding my tools.last.forever so that was just a silly notion.
 
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I have a friend, now retired from turning other than for his grand kids, and he had a set of the raptor tools. His comment about them: "They look really nice, hanging on the wall." I have never used them, but for him, they didn't function very well. You can scribe a line on the shaft of the tool bar for set distances.

robo hippy
 
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It looks like 1 3/4” for 6” grinding wheels and 2” for 8” wheels per Craft Supply website.
Jim, Thanks.
I bought these Raptor setup jigs from a retirement sale and never thought to look at the Craft Supplies website. Duh.
 

Dennis J Gooding

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A few comments: As you know, the Raptor tool is fussy as to jig settings if you want to achieve the exact advertised nose angle on your gouge. It wants a Varigrind arm angle of 23 degrees and a gouge protrusion of 2 inches (for an 8-inch grinding wheel). As others have indicated, the exact value of nose angle is not important as long as it is repeatable from grind to grind. Therefore, you can use 1.75 inch gouge protrusion with no noticeable consequences.

A more significant problem in my mind is that the 23 degree arm angle is fine if you limit yourself to conventional grinds with short bevels, but is a poor choice if you want to make long side grinds. With small arm angles, long wings become too blunt for my taste. I favor an arm angle of 40 degrees or so.

Finally, you can easily make your own setting tools, tailored to any desired values of protrusion and arm angle as follows: Set up these parameters and adjust the V-arm to obtain the desired nose angle. Then cut a piece of thin plywood or plastic to the rough shape of a Raptor tool and trim the two intended contact points so that they both touch the grinding wheel. A good starting point can be obtained by putting the pivot into the V-arm cup and swinging the tool to the outside of the (stationary) wheel and scribing the shape of the wheel onto the tool.
 
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Good help Dennis. I did some experimenting with a piece of round stock and have come to the conclusion most of you have already voiced. Actual angle is a guide and repeatability is the most important.

Thanks to all.
 
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Something I have found to be helpful is a sharpening diary. I keep a small note book at the grinder with a page dedicated to each tool. When I try a new grind or variation I write down the parameters, e.g. stick out, leg angle, nose angle. Then line out the previous entry. If I want to resharpen a gouge it's easy to return the grinder & jig to those settings even if I've used the grinder to sharpen something else in the meantime. It's also easy to see what parameters I've used before.
 
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Well, when I was going to the symposiums, I used the blue painter's tape on each handle with the degree setting on them. People would still ask what angles I was using.... I have settled on a number of angles that I prefer for my tools now, and know them by heart. Glenn Lucas uses colored tape on his handles so the students know, though not sure if he lets them sharpen or not. Many ways to do it...

With the CBN wheels, and if I used the Varigrind, I would use cheater sticks or spacer sticks for the different settings. You can also scribe a line on the shaft of the varigrind for settings and that will get them pretty close.

robo hippy
 
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I also blue tape or sharpie the bar to repeat the distance.

However, I need to learn how to set the Varigrind (1) angle consistently. I read above 23° but the jig deals in, to me, unidentifiable 'notches'. The wing nut on one side and the arm on the other. Could someone explain a simple way to 'read the notches' and which side do you read them from?

50° bowl gouge (D-Way) but how to put it on the correct notch for even the stock grind, let alone of you want to change the wings? I can't tell exact where a notch is, as sad as that sounds...
 

john lucas

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the adjustable arm sets the shape of the wings. The nose angle is a combination of where the V arm is set and the adjustable arm. I set the adjustable arm at 45 degrees( the second notch I think).and I never move it. I used to adjust the V arm for different tools but now I leave it set and just put blocks in the V arm to move the wolverine forward for spindle gouges to give me a.more acute me grind. Go to YouTube and type in john60lucas/sharpening to see how I do this and my home made version of the raptor jigs that I ca e up.with years before the raprot came out. Mine is an adaption of a jig Mike Darlow put in his first book.
 
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I also blue tape or sharpie the bar to repeat the distance.

However, I need to learn how to set the Varigrind (1) angle consistently. I read above 23° but the jig deals in, to me, unidentifiable 'notches'. The wing nut on one side and the arm on the other. Could someone explain a simple way to 'read the notches' and which side do you read them from?

50° bowl gouge (D-Way) but how to put it on the correct notch for even the stock grind, let alone of you want to change the wings? I can't tell exact where a notch is, as sad as that sounds...
I'd love to know, too.. other than trial and error , one would think that wolverine would have documented what the notches actually mean at each notch, other than just simply "sets the shape of the wings".. I knew that too.. and on my home-made one I just used trial and error until I got the wing grind I wanted on my one swept-back 1/2 inch gouge .. from there I just leave it set, never changing or adjusting it, and the V-arm notch in the same place, and have been adjusting the bevel angles on my other tools that I sharpen using that jig by simply varying the protrusion from the vari-grind to more or less than the usual 2 inch... and then just judge my grind (and/or any wings) by eyeballing it, just using the vari-grind to keep a consistent facet-less repeatable angle
 

Dave Landers

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Here's some stuff that might be helpful - after you figure out what settings you want.

I can set my varigrind angle in two ways. First, I have drilled a hole thru the arm and base. If it gets unset, I can just re-align it by aligning the holes. Also, I have made a custom jig to set the angle. I made this thing to custom-match the angle on my varigrind. I can take this to someone else's shop and get my angles on their varigrind (hopefully they have a way to reset theirs :).

I made custom raptor-like setters for the setting the v-arm. Again, these are custom-set to match the arm distance I have, whatever that is. Setters like these measure the distance from the wheel to the V, so are immune to differences in how high or low the wolverine is set on the grinder platform, etc (but they do require a specific size grinding wheel, so will be off if you go from a 8" CBN to a worn-but-used-to-be-8" stone).

I have 2 varigrind things that I rarely (basically never) change. One for bowl gouges and other for spindle gouges. And I have setup these so they work (for me) with the same V-arm setting and gouge end offset. So that V-arm and those 2 varigrinds never move. I couldn't tell you (without going out and measuring) what any of the settings are because to set them up, I just fiddled with them until I got the grinds that work for me. Then I made the jigs to fit that setting.
 
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Hmm, not being familiar with the Varigrind, I am wondering how the arm setting determines the wing shape. With platform sharpening, the wing shape is determined by how far you sweep the gouge to the sides. 40/40 goes to 40 degree sweep, swept back goes to 60 or 70 degrees. I can see the positioning of the arm to the bracket as a determining factor in bevel angle, no problem.... I guess that goes along with how far out the gouge protrudes. Only sharpening jig I ever had was an Ellsworth jig.

robo hippy
 
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Could someone explain a simple way to 'read the notches' and which side do you read them from?

I share yours and other's confusion with the Wolverine/Varigrind system. Reading what little instruction was provided with the tool the stated intention seems to be to duplicate the existing grind on a gouge. There doesn't seem to have been any consideration that someone might want to change that grind, or try something new. So it's not even clear why they made the notches in the first place, but having done so labels would have been a nice touch.

Most people refer to the notches by number, but then don't identify from what direction they are numbering. Since this is already confusing I identify the notches alphabetically with the notch on the anti-grinder side as "A" and the grinder side notch as "G". The A notch will produce the shortest wing and the the G the longest, so this seems easy to remember. As to what letter gives what wing, that's trial and error, hence the sharpening diary.

As to aligning the leg and notch I line up the anti-grinder edge of the leg with the anti-grinder edge of the notch (it's parallel to the leg) and that's my "setting".
 
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I am wondering how the arm setting determines the wing shape.
Robo, the Varigrind rotates on the long axis of the leg to create the wing. When the leg is nearly parallel to the gouge (A), the wing will be shorter. When the leg is nearly perpendicular to the gouge (G) the wings will be very long. Think of it this way, the A position is almost like using just the V pocket to sharpen a spindle rougher.
 
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I also blue tape or sharpie the bar to repeat the distance.

However, I need to learn how to set the Varigrind (1) angle consistently. I read above 23° but the jig deals in, to me, unidentifiable 'notches'. The wing nut on one side and the arm on the other. Could someone explain a simple way to 'read the notches' and which side do you read them from?

50° bowl gouge (D-Way) but how to put it on the correct notch for even the stock grind, let alone of you want to change the wings? I can't tell exact where a notch is, as sad as that sounds...
Allen,
Doug Thompson uses a set it and forget it method. I have attached a copy of his instructions. I am learning and intend to follow his keep it simple process.

mike
 

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  • VariGrind angles.pdf
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Tom Gall

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This has been discussed several times over the past few years - do a search for more info.

Like @Dave Landers I have two Varigrind jigs. One for bowl gouges and another for spindle gouges....
because I'm lazy!:) The tool protrusion and the the position of the arm (pocket) never change.
If you don't want a second Varigrind - once you find the bowl gouge grind you like take an awl, or similar tool, and scribe a line under the arm. Scribe another line for your spindle gouge position. Or, you can even drill a small hole for a pin or drill bit for alignment at your different positions.

I don't use tape or markers on the pocket arm because they will wear out. I use a length of PVC in the pocket and butt it up against the edge of the base of the Wolverine jig. A piece of wood or angle iron will also do the job and is repeatable.
 
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I strongly support putting the leg on the varigrind at one position and leaving it there. If you like Doug Thompson's method, as referenced above, or Kirk DeHeer's method, put it where they suggest and forget it.
The only reason for changing the leg back and forth that makes any sense to me is trying to duplicate the 40/40 grind with a jig. And lots of folks on here will tell you that you should use a platform for the 40/40 anyway.
 

john lucas

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I also drilled a hole.in my wolverine so the arm can always be relocated back to the position unlike. I started doing this when teaching because occasionally a student would.move the arm. On rare occasions I will move the arm like when I tried to answer a question about doing the 40/40 grind using that jig.
 

Timothy Allen

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I think I have drilled two holes in my Varigrind (only one in the leg, but two different settings drilled in the frame) -- one is in accord with Doug Thompson's instruction sheet, and one for Don Geiger's "Ellsworth" set up.
 
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As Dennis mentioned above, I finally made my own "Raptor" jig. I had all my tools ground the way I wanted and didn't want to change anything. So, I made a jig for each tool. After sharpening a tool, and without moving anything, I made the jig and labeled it for that tool. That way all of the angles and dimensions mentioned above are built into the jig. As John Lucas points out, you waste very little of your tool when using a jig because it only requires two passes on the grinder to sharpen a tool and produce a beautiful edge with a single flat.

Making a jig for each tool sounds like a pain, but it only takes a couple of minutes, especially if you make several blanks beforehand. A detailed PDF showing how to make them is attached.
 

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  • Quick Setup for Wolverine or Tormek Grinders.pdf
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I strongly support putting the leg on the varigrind at one position and leaving it there. If you like Doug Thompson's method, as referenced above, or Kirk DeHeer's method, put it where they suggest and forget it.
The only reason for changing the leg back and forth that makes any sense to me is trying to duplicate the 40/40 grind with a jig. And lots of folks on here will tell you that you should use a platform for the 40/40 anyway.
"Set it and forget it" was working just fine until I wanted to sharpen my spindle gouge. After sharpening it I decided to myself "well you've already moved it, why not experiment with the shape of the wings?".

Then, I realized that I couldn't tell EXACTLY where the notches on the Varigrind actually are supposed to be read. One of the documents in this thread clarified it further for me but it should be easier. I'll adapt a suggestion or two, perhaps even drill a hole or two.

Good news is I went with this (Wolverine) system because I knew there would be a lot of info out there on how to learn it. I've been far from disappointed!
 
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FWIW different size gouges will produce different bevel angles using the same settings.. For example a raptor setting of 45 deg will produce a bevel on a 3/4 dia. Gouge closer to 40 deg. While a 3/8 dia. Gouge bevel may be less than 45 deg. Moving the V-arm in or out will fine tune the nose angle.
 
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This was the point of my original question which I think Dave answers at about 5:15 into "D-Way Tools Bowl Gouge Sharpening" video on YT. He calls this "between the 2nd and 3rd notch" and reads the arm on the opposite side of the wing nut (in this case upside down).

20210417_152455.jpg


What would help me understand even further is: what small adjustments in the notches do and the benefits of using one setting over another specially for bowl gouges / wings. I'm guessing not much.

V-arm sets nose angle and distance bar sets wings - I got them mixed up...

Rapotor setup jigs or homemade ones would be helpful. I have a much harder time setting up the platform for without the Varigrind jig, other tools but that's probably another topic.
 
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Dennis J Gooding

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I strongly support putting the leg on the varigrind at one position and leaving it there. If you like Doug Thompson's method, as referenced above, or Kirk DeHeer's method, put it where they suggest and forget it.
The only reason for changing the leg back and forth that makes any sense to me is trying to duplicate the 40/40 grind with a jig. And lots of folks on here will tell you that you should use a platform for the 40/40 anyway.
I agree with Dean on this.
 

hockenbery

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I strongly support putting the leg on the varigrind at one position and leaving it there. If you like Doug Thompson's method, as referenced above, or Kirk DeHeer's method, put it where they suggest and forget it.
I’ll second or third this.
when you are starting out keep it simple and change as few things as possible.

after You have gone 6 months without a catch you can explore different grinds and the nuances of them.
 

john lucas

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It depends on the shape of the spindle gouge. I sharpen all.of my spindle gouges that have a round shaft usi g the same setting as my bowl.ggouge. I simply put a wooden V block in the V arm to move the wolverine jig forward. Thidms gives me a much more acute edge on my spindle gouge. I like 35 or 4p degree edges on my spindle gouge. It does put wings on the gouge shape but youn really don use those like you a bowl gouge so it doesn't matter. A totally I do use the wings for an advanced bead turning cut but that's just me. The spindle gouges that are more flat or stamped out shape I sharpen on the tool.rest platform and dont use the Wolverine.
 

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The only problem I see with this is: I believe it needs to be changed for a spindle/detail spindle gouge. Am I missing something?

Yes and no. For complete control you might

however shifting the pivot point forward will change the front bevel angle.
the pocket can be repositioned but a better solution is a a spacer to move the pivot point forward.
a block of wood or metal does the trick

Don Geiger has a system that makes it super easy to get different grinds without moving the pocket arm.
 
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To clarify, I didn't mean moving the V-arm but rather having to change the Varigrind 1's leg/notch setting. No need to adjust it between spindle and Bowl gouge?

I like the idea of using wooden blocks for minor adjustments preventing the need to change the arm or jig. I have been using a wooden block for grinding off the heels of bowl gouges.

It's be nice if there was a standard set of measure for these blocks. I've used a wooden shim, time to make some formally....Dave used one at 5/8" in the video. I'll have to find out what else to make, would be useful.
 

hockenbery

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I didn't mean moving the V-arm but rather having to change the Varigrind 1's leg/notch setting. No need to adjust it between spindle and Bowl gouge?
no and yes
If you move vee arm or put i a block you can easily change the front bevel from 60 to 30.

With the vaigrind set in one position using Don Geiger’s gizmo you can get a grind that is real close to the Ellsworth grind produced using the Ellsworth jig and a nice fingernail grind on a spindle gouge by using Don’s adjustment block to position the vee arm.
this works quite well for lots of folks.

i Personally use an Ellsworth jig for my bowl gouge and sharpen the spindle gouge resting my hand on the platform.
i have a varigrind for visiters. And have used Don Geiger’s evolution system. It works quite well.
 

hockenbery

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@Allen Mattes' a picture works better
Here is a you tube by Don that shows how the block and stop ring are used to change the position of
the vee arm and leave the varigrind on one setting. I’m the video Don is using a wooden block. He makes that out of metal now.

View: https://youtu.be/HrpEkWprzZc
 
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The only problem I see with this is: I believe it needs to be changed for a spindle/detail spindle gouge. Am I missing something?
The problem of never getting the leg back to exactly the same place, and as a result taking off lots of steel from your tools when next you grind them, is way bigger than the benefit you might get. As noted by others, there are ways to get closer to the original leg position and ways to change the geometry without moving the leg.

And no, you do not need to move the leg to satisfactorily grind spindle gouges. Just change the stick out and the distance of pocket to wheel, and you can produce a very serviceable grind.

BTW, while looking for something else, I came across a picture that shows the varigrind jig set to 23 degrees. Ironically, it was part of the CraftSupplies instruction sheet on the Raptor jigs. :D page 3 if anyone wants to look it up on their web site.
 
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