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Re-program Powermatic VFD drive

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I have had a Powermatic 3520B for several years now. I would like to program the Delta S1 drive (VFD 015S21U) to the same parameters I use on my main lathe, with a minimum speed of 0 and a faster acceleration and deceleration time. I don't use the Powermatic for heavy work, so I don't have a problem with overtaxing the motor or drive. That devolves to my main homemade lathe.

The problem is the drive is password locked. My understanding when I bought the lathe was that after a year passed and the warranty on the electronics was over, they would give it out to you. Not so. I called Powermatic and was informed they can't give out the password, you have to mail the whole drive back to them. This is ridiculous, IMHO.

Does anyone have a solution to this problem? Anyone have the password? Of course, it's a number between 0 and 999, so it is theoretically feasible to sit there and step through them all, but how long would that take?

Thanks for any help,
Fred Williamson
 

john lucas

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I with you on that. I have the parameters and enough knowledge to reset things. I would love the password but I can understand the liability issues that might exist. Perhaps someone can "leak" it to us. Where's Wiki Leaks when we really need them. :)
 
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Re-Programing a VFD

The only two names that came to mind when I saw your post were Reed Grey aka "Robo Hippy" and Bret English at Robust. Good Luck, Please post your results.

Dave
 
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Reprogramming

I was able to get the unlock code from Jet for my 1642 a few years ago. It was long out of warranty. I talked to a guy in the technical dept. He was hesitant to give it out but relented when I told him how old my lathe was. He did warn than dropping the minimum speed to zero was not good for the motor. I don't have it handy but it was something simple. I was able to reprogram the lower speed limit fairly easily. It helped that a good friend works with VFD controllers all the time and helped me.
 
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The 3520A would go down to almost 0 rpm before shutting off. When they 'improved' to the B model, they changed it to 50 rpm before it would shut off. For sanding my warped bowls, that would not work.

Their reasoning was that running at that slow of a speed would cause the motor to overheat, and it would fry the motor and the electronics. When I told them that I had sanded out thousands of bowls at those speeds with no problems, they told me that it wasn't possible. They said their tests showed the motor ran hotter as it was still drawing 240 volts. Hmm, it runs on volts, but draws amps..... CYA = cover your a--.

When I got my Robust, I talked to Brent before I bought it, and told him I wanted the near 0 speed. He had the same concerns. He told me to keep feeling the motor to check for heat issues. I still do this, after another couple thousand bowls. It runs cooler when sanding than it does when I turn. Mostly, the motor still runs, but the load/resistance is almost 0.

You might be able to call Delta and have them help you.

I have never heard of any one with a 3520A having fried their motors or electronics from running the motors at slow speeds.

robo hippy
 
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I spent yesterday at an all day demo with Nick Cook. He reps Powermatic. I asked him about the almost zero rpm, and he agreed with me. The new big PM 4224 or what ever will be in San Jose, sliding headstock included.

robo hippy
 
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Zero RPM myths

A few details on my own experience running a VFD very slow:

I have been using a 3 HP Westinghouse Teco FM100 inverter pushing a 2 HP motor on my main lathe for at least 10 years, with min. speed settings down to 0 the whole time. The ONLY time I run it real slow is in loading on or taking off bowls, and in extremely light sanding around the rotating rim if it is a round style bowl. Both of these operations exert next to no drag on the motor. I have overtaxed and blown the internal fuse many many times in heavy hogging out, and in my experience it is only the inverter that gets hot. Hit the reset button and soldier on a little less vigorously. If the motor is at half speed or more it has enough torque to make the belt slip. Slower than that and it stalls the motor. But you'd have to leave it stalled a long long time to cause real damage. If you were to lock the spindle and turn the motor on slow, and walk away for half an hour, perhaps then you could do some damage.....not a wise thing to do regardless of speed setting.

If I have a 100-200 lb blank in my arms to load up, it sure is great to have the spindle turning real slow and feed it on carefully with both hands. It is a back saving factor in my opinion. If the thread jams or something, the motor just stalls out and you reach over and flip it off.

Surely they can alter the policy and allow those who want to change the settings with no liability issue to them. The warranty is expired, what's the beef???? I can't sue them either way. (But I feel like suing them now as it stands)

I have a similar Delta drive bought new and placed on a loaner lathe which I lend out to club members, and it is programmed down to 0, no problems whatsoever.

If I have to order a replacement VFD just to get the option, that will be a bummer. Or take the machine off line for the time it takes to mail it in. What a waste of time and money.

Fred
 
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Maybe you can get a new converter from Delta, and send the old one back to PM for a refund.

robo hippy
 

Bill Rubenstein

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I realize that this is an old thread but I'd like to bring it back to life.

Does anybody have any idea whether Jet/Powermatic uses a single password for all drives or they are different from model to model, year to year, or whatever.

I've done some research and am certain that I can automate the process of breaking the password -- there are only 999 possible. But, it would be nice if I only needed to do this once.

Bill
 
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Well since this seems to be common knowledge, I'll confirm that 506 is the code on my 3520B. Attached is a writeup that I did back when I "cracked" mine.

---Scott.
 

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  • Reprogramming the PM3520b.pdf
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I tried Scotts parameters/ some what dissapointing results

I reprogrammed the VFD on my Powermatic 3520 b following Scott's directions.
The pass word worked fine, however the reprogramming results were some what disappointing. My lathe now turns on & off at 25 rpms. However it runs very rough & jerky at 25 rpms. Then when I try to turn it up just a little it jumps directly to 37 rpm. It runs smoothly at 37 rpm, There is no setting between 25 & 37 rpms, then it goes from 37 to 50 rpm again I can't get any speed between 37 & 50 rpm.
I would really like to get it to run smoothly at about 20 rpm if possible.
Does any one know of any parameters that could get it to run smoothly at about 20 rpms?
 
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That's about the same as I get - 24, 36, and 48 rpm. The motor runs rough enough to make the open jaws of the chuck rattle at 24 and 36. If I recall correctly, I had it as low as 12 rpm when I was testing and it was so rough I could see the motor stepping.

To make the lathe run slower and smooth you will need to either:

Change the pulleys. There's not a whole lot of room in there for a bigger arbor pulley and the motor pulley is about as small is it can go.

Change the entire motor/vfd to something designed to run at low speeds. Might as well buy a new lathe for what that will cost.​

Even at 48 (50) rpm, I can detect some roughness, always could. The B does use a different vfd and motor than the original 3520. Maybe this is the true reason for Powermatic setting the low speed at 50 rpm.

My goal in doing this was two fold. I was in IT and am an old style hacker. It was a challenge, albeit a trivial one, to crack the password. Secondly, I wanted the slow rpm for the rare times where I need to keep a finish from running as I apply it, like just the other day with some polyester resin.

---Scott.
 
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I just got a chance to do a test and compile some data. I very carefully increased/decreased the speed of the lathe and the following were the results:


Code:
RPM      VFD
 24      F 2.7
 36      F 4.0
 48      F 5.4
 60      F 6.6
 73      F 8.0
 85      F 9.4
 98      F10.8
110      F12.1

Notice that the displayed RPM changes in steps of 12 (or so) and that the VFD frequency changes in steps of 1.3 (or so). I was unable to get any values between those shown other than some last digit display jitter. I suspect that this is the minimum resolution for the VFD and that we simply don't notice the 12 RPM change increment at speeds greater than 50.

---Scott.
 
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Powermatic Password Cracked

Hello all. I am thrilled to learn that the code has been cracked. Many thanks to Don O. and Scott Crompton for their work and for posting it. A few weeks ago at our monthly meeting a fellow turner in our club announced he'd just seen the posting and that it worked for him, and I promptly tried it out most successfully for myself.

Many thanks to Scott for including his detailed instructions for which settings to change and what to go to, and particularly for including all the factory pre-sets there in that comprehensive pdf, so one could always restore to a working setting should he/she change something wrong. I suggest those who do change their settings print it out and have it in that cabinet by the lathe.

There is indeed some stepper motor action at the lower speeds, but that's the same for my Westinghouse Teco inverter. It's really no problem as you are using it that slow only for sanding, possibly for the last bit of parting off, when there is virtually no load.

I also changed the start up and ramp down speeds, as I've been frustrated with the 5 second lag. I started out with 2.5 sec, but it seemed a little fast. Then I went to 3.0 seconds, which seems to behave like the 1.5 seconds I have programmed on my Teco. I have yet to used it enough to be sure that is the right setting for me, but it seems to behave well. If you are confident in your turning skills, I suggest trying the faster accel/decel and see if you like it.

Once again, many thanks to those who followed up on this and got the needed info out to us. It is greatly appreciated, esp. as I kept putting off taking the time to fully research the topic and get to someone at Delta who would let the password out. From years and years of use of the slow speed on the Teco, I don't think there is any real danger of hurting motor or controller, as long as you don't lug it down.

Fred Williamson
 
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Well since this seems to be common knowledge, I'll confirm that 506 is the code on my 3520B. Attached is a writeup that I did back when I "cracked" mine.

---Scott.

Scott, thanks for parameter settings. I had the VFD go out on my Jet 16-42 and bought a direct replacement Delta Electronics drive. Your settings worked perfectly.
Wade
 
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I reprogrammed the VFD on my Powermatic 3520 b following Scott's directions.
The pass word worked fine, however the reprogramming results were some what disappointing. My lathe now turns on & off at 25 rpms. However it runs very rough & jerky at 25 rpms. Then when I try to turn it up just a little it jumps directly to 37 rpm. It runs smoothly at 37 rpm, There is no setting between 25 & 37 rpms, then it goes from 37 to 50 rpm again I can't get any speed between 37 & 50 rpm.
I would really like to get it to run smoothly at about 20 rpm if possible.
Does any one know of any parameters that could get it to run smoothly at about 20 rpms?


I tried the reprogramming instructions and saw no improvement. I tried resetting the factory defaults and now it comes on at about 6 or 8 RPM. (but the sensor won't seem to register speed until up to 10 RPM)

Do the reset factory defaults and then set the input/control parameters so the switches and rheostat works.
 
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I tried the reprogramming instructions and saw no improvement. I tried resetting the factory defaults and now it comes on at about 6 or 8 RPM. (but the sensor won't seem to register speed until up to 10 RPM)

Do the reset factory defaults and then set the input/control parameters so the switches and rheostat work.

Darryl How smoothly does your lathe run at low RPMs? At what rpm will it run smoothly without jerking?
 
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I tried the reprogramming instructions and saw no improvement. I tried resetting the factory defaults and now it comes on at about 6 or 8 RPM. (but the sensor won't seem to register speed until up to 10 RPM)

Do the reset factory defaults and then set the input/control parameters so the switches and rheostat works.

Darryl How smoothly does your lathe run at low rpms ? At what rpm will it run smoothly without jerking ?


It comes on very slowly and it seems like 8 RPM is about as low as it will register. It's very smooth and not jerky at all. It makes applying finish very handy. ;)
 
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VFD Drive

... It comes on very slowly and it seems like 8 RPM is about as low as it will register. It's very smooth and not jerky at all. It makes applying finish very handy. ;)

Darryl, could you either post a step by step directions of what you did or email me directly. I'm not sure on what you meant by resetting the input/rheostat after you reset the factory defaults. Also is there a button to reset the factory defaults or did you have to reset each of the parameters one by one?
I would really love to have mine set to run smoothly at around 20 rpms for finishing. Mine is still very jerky when running at 24 rpm having followed the reprogramming parameters listed in this thread.
Thank You.
Joe
 
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Bill Boehme

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... Their reasoning was that running at that slow of a speed would cause the motor to overheat, and it would fry the motor and the electronics. When I told them that I had sanded out thousands of bowls at those speeds with no problems, they told me that it wasn't possible. They said their tests showed the motor ran hotter as it was still drawing 240 volts. Hmm, it runs on volts, but draws amps..... CYA = cover your a--.

Well, Reed you are right and Powermatic Tech support is either not telling the truth or they aren't too bright (I suspect the latter).

The voltage to the motor actually is NOT 240 VAC at slow speed. Below base speed (1750 RPM), the voltage decreases with speed -- not to control the motor speed, mind you, but to prevent the iron core of the field magnets from reaching magnetic saturation. Saturating the core does nothing, but waste energy in the form of heat. As mentioned in another post, if the motor were stalled or bogged down for a long period, it would definitely overheat because it could still draw a pretty hefty current and at very slow speeds the cowled fan on the back of the motor does not provide any meaningful cooling.

In the real world, turners generally do not apply much, if any, load when running that slow.

There was also some mention of the speed not being smooth at very slow speeds. That is a normal condition for that type of VFD system because there is not any true speed feedback to the control electronics. The VFD is known as a "sensorless vector" type which just means that it tries to make a logical guess at the motor speed based on the applied frequency, the motor current, and motor parameters that were entered during the initial set up procedure. This scheme works reasonably well once the speed is above about 200 RPM, but starts deteriorating below that speed. One of the primary reasons why is that motor current is not a nice clean signal -- it is actually as noisy as heck which means that the controller has to do some pretty heavy filtering to get a reasonable guess about the current. Filtering adds a time lag to the measurement and so it is not too hard to imagine trying to control the motor torque for the present need based on what the conditions were at some time in the past. At high speeds, the time lag is just a tiny fraction of a second, but at extremely slow speeds, the time lag can stretch into several seconds.

Once the motor gets down to about 50 RPM, that is about the minimum for smooth, but not especially accurate speed control. At that speed the driving frequency to the motor is dropping to less than 1 Hz. This is where time lags can become several seconds long and the motor is responding with an applied torque now based on a poor estimate of what the load was several seconds ago. The end result is surging which can quickly cause the motor speed to go "divergent" (as in, "going wonky") and have you diving for cover.

Some controllers are much better than others. The Toshiba controller on my Robust is amazingly good. The Delta controller used on the Powermatic and other lathes is sort of OK and some others aren't worth a hoot at slow speeds. Generally speaking, price is a pretty good indicator of quality.

Some cheaper lathes use V/Hz controllers which means that they do not attempt to sense the motor speed, but just simply output a fixed frequency and if the torque load changes then so does the speed (as in, it slows down).

There is also a real honest-to-goodness "vector" controller that requires the use of a speed or position feedback device mounted on the motor that can measure the speed with extremely high precision (like sensing motor shaft position to less than one-tenth of a degree). The feedback device is typically a 4096 line optical encoder. I have several of these type controllers and motors designed for this application. They can actually run all the way down to zero speed and still maintain full torque and smooth output from the motor. At zero speed the motor shafts acts like a stiff spring.
 
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If anyone is interested in changing their drive parameters, shoot me a message. (or email- bighammer"AT"chartermi.net)
We can connect up by phone and go thru the procedure and what values I've set for each.

I've been very pleased with it and not had any problems since reprogramming it.
 
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If anyone is interested in changing their drive parameters, shoot me a message. (or email- bighammer"AT"chartermi.net)
We can connect up by phone and go thru the procedure and what values I've set for each.

I've been very pleased with it and not had any problems since reprogramming it.

Could anybody help me with further info on replacing the VFD with the original delta? mine blew up and I don't want to spend 700+ bucks at Powermatic Thanks
 
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Micah,

There are plenty of generic import VFD's available on eBay or most any internet retail outlet for motor control type equipment. You just need to order the correct model of VFD that matches the Input Voltage for the lathe/motor and the proper HP or KW rating of the VFD that will handle your motor voltage rating. Most of the VFD's come with a manual and you can then set up the parameters and set the drive to operate via the speed control and other control devices on your lathe. Some of the Chinese Import VFD's can be purchased for a couple hundred dollars and up from there for well known brands. There are several video's on YouTube that take you through the entire process of wiring in the input devices and setting parameters for a lathe retrofit.
 
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They said their tests showed the motor ran hotter as it was still drawing 240 volts. Hmm, it runs on volts, but draws amps..... CYA = cover your a--.
That is a poor CYA when you consider that the basic design is to maintain a volts per Hz ratio so 60 HZ at 240Volt = 4volts per Hz and 10Hz at 4VpHz is 40 volts etc.
 
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Micah,

There are plenty of generic import VFD's available on eBay or most any internet retail outlet for motor control type equipment. You just need to order the correct model of VFD that matches the Input Voltage for the lathe/motor and the proper HP or KW rating of the VFD that will handle your motor voltage rating. Most of the VFD's come with a manual and you can then set up the parameters and set the drive to operate via the speed control and other control devices on your lathe. Some of the Chinese Import VFD's can be purchased for a couple hundred dollars and up from there for well known brands. There are several video's on YouTube that take you through the entire process of wiring in the input devices and setting parameters for a lathe retrofit.

Right I have 6 VFD's that I purchased to either convert 1 phase to 3 phase and 3 to also provide variable speed and this is the first time I ever heard of a VFD being password protected, but then I don't have any Delta brand VFD's.
 
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Don,

There are plenty of VFD manufacturers that include Password protection on the drives they sell into the marketplace, the password eliminates unskilled users from messing with the program and crashing the equipment. I work with a number of people that would be grinning from ear to ear if they could hack into a piece of equipment that someone else runs and be able to change a few parameters to have fun watching them scratch their head with the problem. If someone else enters a password for the VFD and does not write it down you usually need to contact the manufacturer to get a factory password to get back in and reset the password.
 
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Don,

There are plenty of VFD manufacturers that include Password protection on the drives they sell into the marketplace, the password eliminates unskilled users from messing with the program and crashing the equipment. I work with a number of people that would be grinning from ear to ear if they could hack into a piece of equipment that someone else runs and be able to change a few parameters to have fun watching them scratch their head with the problem. If someone else enters a password for the VFD and does not write it down you usually need to contact the manufacturer to get a factory password to get back in and reset the password.
I first started specifying and using them back in the late 1980's and up to about 2004 when I retired and I don't recall password protection. The first VFD that I installed on a wood lathe was in 1991 after finding a 1 HP drive in a surplus store with a price of $10.00, that had never been used. Since then I have bought for my personnel use Allen Bradly, Cutler Hammer and after moving to the Minnesota Lakes area and building my current shop TECO and Automation Direct. The TECO and AD don't support passwords that I know of and I can access all of the variables form the panel on the drive. The smart A's have always been there and probable always will be.
 
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Don,

Many of the factories that manufacture VFD's have OEM versions that they can sell to jobbers that many times want a password on the drive to limit their liability in the marketplace.
All depends on how many bells and whistles they need for the market they are selling into. Some of the VFD's we use in our facilities I work at have 800+ page manuals with 100's of available parameter settings, we usually password protect the drive after it is programmed and archive a copy of the parameter settings in a file folder that engineering and maintenance groups have access to 24/7. We can usually replace a bad drive with a new drive and swap the HIMM and be up and running quickly, worst case is copying the parameter file from the archive file and loading it onto the drive in the field with a laptop or loading the parameter file onto a HIMM and plugging it into the drive in the field and saving it to the drive.
 
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