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Update on forum closing

Steve Worcester

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OK, let me say first -
No one from the BOD has contacted me nor suggested to close the board, so sorry, no conspiracy.

I am not closing the forum in as much closing the threads on Marys dismissal/firing/resignation. There is not new information, it is all there. Same for requesting BOD resignations, ethics rules violations.
If you want to confer amongst your selves for other AAW issues, go for it.

I know you have a passion for the development and growth for the AAW and sadly but truthfully, the events since the symposium has sparked a fire that has grown to unprecedented proportions.

In the 6 months before the symposium, 10 threads were created in this subforum. In the weeks (6?) since, hundreds. All actually have a great underlying message of making a better organization that you feel passionate about. Just sometime a little too passionate.

If you want to throw stones about the closing, throw them at me. While Ed is an advisor (with only the same abilities here as you guys but rules the AAW website) and Kurt is a moderator, I have the final say. I feel there is nothing new to learn here, and with the potential for a proxy vote coming up, I informed both sides about a week ago telling them I was going to close it down (so they could get their websites up and functional) and ended up with it open about 2 extra days. The threads will all still be viewable, just no more posts added to them (existing one that is). I will not delete any existing threads either so you can continue to use it for your research purposes.

I have received a number of positive PMs and emails about the closing, and no I have not taken a poll to see which side they are on. As expected, a few inquiries and a few nasty ones (My favorite begins "I guess that forum is now Steve Worcester's personal forum. ")

I continue to welcome all of your constructive criticism and input, but if you have a mean nasty comment, keep it to your self, there no place in my world for such verbiage.
 
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One Question Left

Steve, thanks. You answered all of my questions about closing the forum except number 4. The MAG group has been holding off on soliciting proxies waiting for a solution to be reached. When/if they decides there is a need to solicit proxies will you allow the announcement and possibly a copy of the proxy with a brief statement?
 

Steve Worcester

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Steve, thanks. You answered all of my questions about closing the forum except number 4. The MAG group has been holding off on soliciting proxies waiting for a solution to be reached. When/if they decides there is a need to solicit proxies will you allow the announcement and possibly a copy of the proxy with a brief statement?

Absolutely an announcement, a copy will have to come from their site.
 
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I think your wife made you shut it down. When she had to bring your meals to the computer that was probably the last straw.:D I think you and Kurt must have been on forum 24hr a day, get some well deserved rest.:)
 
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Shut done

I am afraid it is a wrong decision to shut dowm the forum before the on going negotiayions either succeed or fail
Peter
2534
 

Steve Worcester

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I am afraid it is a wrong decision to shut dowm the forum before the on going negotiayions either succeed or fail
Peter
2534

On that, the negotiations are between two parties ,that if at all, rarely post here, and anything further we could add here is irrelevant to those negotiations and possibly even more harmful.
 
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repost

Without forum discussion on the issues, the BoD, Mary and MAG will be isolated from any serious balanced member input.

It takes the pressure off them to negotiate. I'm sure they were following the discussions to some extent. The two websites from the opposing sides will be populated by like minded participants and that is not good for either group.

The AAW forum is neutral ground for a fair discussion on both sides of the issues.

The moderators did a great job of allowing free and robust discussions. If they are overworked and I think that is the case, then can they add more moderators of equal fairness to help with the load?

Please consider allowing the forum to continue discussing this issue. I fear the BoD, Mary and MAG will now wander down a quieter path without a balanced view of how the membership feels.

Curtis Thompson

I posted this on another thread about the discussion closing. Hope I'm not stepping on any toes by re-posting it hear.

Curtis:(
 
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Well, it appears that all members, whose money except for grants, fund most all functions of the AAW, no longer have any way in which to express their opinions. Basically, we have been reduced to subjects. I never liked that role, so I probably have lost my desire to be part of the AAW. It was a great organization but no entity can survive under censorship. Bob Hawks
 
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Over the past six weeks, we have seen the very worst in humanity - bulling, baiting, chest pounding, name calling, jumping to conclusions, slander, threats of lawsuits, character assignation, questioning perfect stranger’s integrity, half-truths, purposeful misrepresentations, trolling, threatening emails and malicious website tampering. Some of this, you have not seen, as the offending posts were deleted, private emails were not re-transmitted, and server attacks have been between web-admin staff and the attackers. There are consequences to all these actions, some of which you do not currently know about, but may learn of soon. To be perfectly clear, I regret allowing this forum bloodletting to have begun in the first place. By Steve Worcester's grace, you have until tomorrow to vent.
 
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Well, it appears that all members, whose money except for grants, fund most all functions of the AAW, no longer have any way in which to express their opinions. Basically, we have been reduced to subjects. I never liked that role, so I probably have lost my desire to be part of the AAW. It was a great organization but no entity can survive under censorship. Bob Hawks

You may not have truly considered your statement, but every family, community, state and country censors material. Just one example is the debate about health education and human sexuality. Yet families, communities, states and countries continue to survive.
 
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Ed,
Sorry to hear that you and the other mods have been abused. :(

Is there any chance that only the principal parties in the issue can post?

That might produce a better tone.

The 7-BoD members
Mary Lacer
Bill Haskell
Malcolm Tibbetts
 
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Over the past six weeks, we have seen the very worst in humanity - bulling, bating, chest pounding, name calling, jumping to conclusions, slander, threats of lawsuits, character assignation, questioning perfect stranger’s integrity, half-truths, purposeful misrepresentations, trolling, threatening emails and malicious website tampering. Some of this, you have not seen, as the offending posts were deleted, private emails were not re-transmitted, and sever attacks have been between web-admin staff and the attackers. There are consequences to all these actions, some of which you do not currently know about, but may learn of soon. To be perfectly clear, I regret allowing this forum bloodletting to have begun in the first place. By Steve Worcester's grace, you have until tomorrow to vent.

Hey, why are you picking on me? Others did stuff too! :eek:
 
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Ed,
Sorry to hear that you and the other mods have been abused. :(

Is there any chance that only the principal parties in the issue can post?

That might produce a better tone.

The 7-BoD members
Mary Lacer
Bill Haskell
Malcolm Tibbetts

Curtis, I believe Steve stated earlier that informational announcements from the principals are fine, as long as they do not editorialize. For example, if negotiations fail, and MAG wants to announce that their proxy is available, that is not a problem.
 
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Post brief, moderated news items in the sticky

and post the MAG and Support the AAW web site addresses, and shut this whole thing down. It needed to take place to a point. That point has passed IMHO. The name of this sub forum is "AAW Information" Not "AAW Street Corner" Lets keep it to news and info.

MAG has a comment area. Let that be used need be. Mag could post a brief item here if they believe this discussion should continue and that they are willing to host it and moderate it. Let them take the responsibility and demonstrate their leadership and management skills.

The comments on the MAG site that I have seen could benefit from more balance reflecting both sides. Moderating all this is way above Steve's pay grade.

This is a needed decision and I support Steve and Ed 1000%.
 
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I support the forum closing

I've been two minded about the closure of the forum. In general, I prefer to allow mature adults the opportunity to give and take. However, some of the responses that were just posted to Malcolm Zander have convinced me that Steve's right to close the forum. These posts were rude for the sake of being rude. There was nothing civil about them. They didn't disagree with Zander's points, they merely dismissed him as a non-entity. I am ashamed to be associated with "gentlemen" such as these. I suppose they might defend their incivility by saying that they'd have said the same thing to Zander's face if they saw him. Fine, and if they did so in my home I'd escort them from the premises. If this is the level of discourse we can expect on this topic, than it's best to close the forum.
 
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What time?

I'm about to face serious withdrawl come midnight... Will the closing of these threads be 12:00 GMT, Eastern, Pacific, Hawaii, Guam? I've got to know ASAP! :eek:

PS - I love that little eek guy -- if I weren't straight...
 
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David, I can assure you that much worse than that has been said – by some in anger, and by other as a matter of strategy…

Ed,

I've received some of those poison emails, too. I've quickly deleted them. I'm sorry that you, Steve, and Kurt have had to endure far worse -- at least in volume -- than I've received.

I'm not sure what they hope to achieve by sending such emails. They're not winning converts to their cause. I meant what I said. I will not willingly associate with such people. I don't mind civil argument and debate. I also don't mind the occasional snide remark or cutting remark. But if life's too short to turn bad wood, it's also too short to associate with vile people.
 
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Ed,

I've received some of those poison emails, too. I've quickly deleted them. I'm sorry that you, Steve, and Kurt have had to endure far worse -- at least in volume -- than I've received.

I'm not sure what they hope to achieve by sending such emails. They're not winning converts to their cause. I meant what I said. I will not willingly associate with such people. I don't mind civil argument and debate. I also don't mind the occasional snide remark or cutting remark. But if life's too short to turn bad wood, it's also too short to associate with vile people.

I agree David.
 
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Mixed company

It is prdictable that in a group as large as AAW, rotten apples will appear and smell up the whole scene. Rotten apples need to be delt with & necessary censorship or removal has been a tough job well done, by Steve, Ed, & Kurt.
Personally I have enjoyed and learned from the activity. I enjoy strong language exchanges, so long as tempers don't get too far out. I do not approve of vulgar or denigrating remarks. So censoring those types of remarks is appropriate.
Its just too bad the bad apples don't know restraint and must continue to insult, accuse, etc., by private e-mail.
Gentlemen, I apologize in inhalf of those whose character does not include the ability, or humility and civility to do so.
 
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Weed Them Out

I will not email something I would not like to see published. I will send emails asking for information but will make a statement in a controversial issue that I will retain the right to post the answer unless directed not to. If I ever receive an email that is threatening, abusive or downright objectionable I would not hesitate for a minute to post a copy to whatever forum I subscribe to. I would not delete the email. If it was posted and disclaimed I would have the complete address.
 
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Sadly, these emotional issues can bring out the worst in some folks.

There are a lot of people who have what I refer to as Keyboard Bravery. They will spew a lot of vulgarities and get pretty offensive hiding behind their keyboard and monitor but wouldn't have the courage to say the same things to someone's face.

One of the bad things about the Internet is that you don't really know the identity of the people you with whom you are communicating. The few forums where I hang out, the members are requested to use their real name. I moderate at one of those sites and we occasionally catch someone using a "handle" and quickly do something about it.

I can only imagine the horrendous emails received by the major participants in this recent incident.

They have my sympathy.
 
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I have to compliment the moderators etc. for keeping this discussion going in the right direction. With all of the varied opinions and disagreements, both large and small I think we all learned a great deal about what some of the members think of the AAW and what directions it should strive for.

It does disappoint me that some would abuse the private messages and or emails. I kind of expect it on some of the forums I am on, but not this one. I kind of look at like this, "Would I wanted my mother, wife or granddaughter to read what I wrote?" If I can answer yes, then it is okay, if I hesitate, then maybe it needs to be deleted.
 
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One of the bad things about the Internet is that you don't really know the identity of the people you with whom you are communicating. The few forums where I hang out, the members are requested to use their real name. I moderate at one of those sites and we occasionally catch someone using a "handle" and quickly do something about it.

I agree with you to a point if someone is using a "handle" to spew hate on a forum. But to misquote you "One of the bad things about the Internet is that you know to much about the identity of the people with whom you are communicating." I think the ideal forums are those where I can use a "handle" for posting, but have to register with my real name and email. Only the forum administrators have access to that information. They can then use that to "ban" me if I misbehave. That protects me from spammers and such, but still gives the forum moderators the info needed to control the forum.

Larry
 
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I agree with you to a point if someone is using a "handle" to spew hate on a forum. But to misquote you "One of the bad things about the Internet is that you know to much about the identity of the people with whom you are communicating." I think the ideal forums are those where I can use a "handle" for posting, but have to register with my real name and email. Only the forum administrators have access to that information. They can then use that to "ban" me if I misbehave. That protects me from spammers and such, but still gives the forum moderators the info needed to control the forum.

Larry

Larry, I also help run a "real names required" forum, and from time to time we get the argument from new members about handles protecting them from spammers and ID theft. Some folks get downright indignant about it. The thing is, spammers and ID thieves can't do anything with just a person's name. They need an e-mail address, or Social Security number, bank account or credit card number, or other personal information that isn't available to the public on a forum. About the worst they can do is look up your phone number elsewhere on the Internet, and that's not a sure thing, especially if you have a fairly common name. Also, forum administrators don't need to know someone's real name or e-mail address to ban them. For example, if they've got a member with the handle of "RabbleRouser", they simply put restrictions on the RabbleRouser account. They don't need to know his real name is Ken Fitzgerald. ;) (Sorry Ken, couldn't resist...figured you'd understand.) :p

And my hat's off to the staff of this forum for keeping things together over the recent past. :)
 
R

Ron Sardo

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I'll second Vaughn. Hiding behind a handle is really false security.

I also run a real name forum. We made the change almost 2 years ago and I see a major difference in the way people react with each other. People are more pleasant and friendly. I wouldn't go back to using handles for anything in the world.

Most people don't realize that forum software records a person's IP address, its just as easy to just ban a IP as it is a person's name.

Once, two years ago, we had a person sign up using two different handles and would argue with himself trying to lure other people in. With matching IP address it wasn't hard to figure it out and his IP is banned for life.
 

AlanZ

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Ron,

I administer several forums, and unfortunately banning IP addresses is of very limited utility.

Some service providers, like AOL channel all of their connections through a small number of IP addresses. So if you ban one member who is connecting through AOL, you inadvertantly ban thousands. We found this out the hard way (9 years ago) on one of our forums.

On all the forums I administer, the members have a choice of using (or displaying) their full name (which may not be unique) or their unique screenname.

I don't have any problem using my full name, but being online for 26 years, I've established a "brand", so to speak for the handle AlanZ.

Besides, when I tell folk that my name is Alan Zenreich, they usually say "Zen-who?" and start calling me Alan Z. anyway <vbg>
 
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We will just have to agree to disagree. I don't think that I am unpleasant or unfriendly because I use a nickname. I don't know anymore about you either just because you use your real name. (How do you know someone is using their real name?) It's just my internet paranoia. :cool2: See, I even wear sunglasses to protect my identity.

BTW. My hat's off also to the moderators of this forum for the way they maintained the many sub-forums these last few weeks. I hate to see Steve go, but I don't blame him.
 
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For example, if they've got a member with the handle of "RabbleRouser", they simply put restrictions on the RabbleRouser account. They don't need to know his real name is Ken Fitzgerald. ;) (Sorry Ken, couldn't resist...figured you'd understand.) :p

And my hat's off to the staff of this forum for keeping things together over the recent past. :)

Vaughn,

That's just a handle......the one they put on my birth certificate.:p
 
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Academic studies demonstrate that many, but certainly not all, individuals behave differently when they think they have anonymity. In general, anonymity allows such individuals to engage in a greater degree of anti-social behavior than they otherwise would. There was are reason the Klan wore hoods -- it made it easier for Klan members to do things they otherwise wouldn't.

To the extent a requirement to use your real name makes people feel less anonymous, it lessens the anti-social behavior for which internet forums are infamous. Please note the qualifier: "to the extent". For some users, the requirement to use their real name does not affect their perception of anonymity and therefore won't have any affect on their behavior.
 
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I prefer the "handle" instead of the real name, a simple Google of my name and anyone can get enough info to know where I live and some of my life history.
 
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identity theft

I hope someone with really good credit steals mine so I can get a credit card:cool2:
 
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