Wet Sanding

[Donovan Bailey]

I surly would appreciate some discussion/advice from the community on wet sanding techniques for bowls. I've gone through the records and see entries where folks are trying it but I have never seen any definitive recommendation. Over the past year I have found that the dust from dry sanding is becoming more and more aggravating and troublesome. As such, I have been experimenting with wet sanding and absolutely love it as a dust control measure...however, I can't seem to hit on a decent finish technique. Walnut oil is a great sanding lubricant, however, it takes ages for it to cure. Anybody got a "go to" wet sanding technique for a decent bowl finish that leads you to just a little "shine" at the end of the process?

 

[odie]

Donovan......you are wet sanding, using what? How are you doing it?

Are you twice turning your bowls?

Do you intend to stay with the walnut oil?

Have you tried the 3-step Beall method of buffing?.....or do you intend for your finish alone to produce the "shine" you want?

Are you seeing some concentric very fine sanding grooves that you want eliminated?

A little more input would be helpful.......

-----odie-----

 

[Karl Loeblein]

You can try speeding up the drying process with a fan, small heater (in the winter), or setting your pieces out in the sun for a short period (if wood color isn't adversely affected by UV rays). Also, try spraying a few top coats of polyurethane for extra shine & protection, but only after the oil has fully cured. Suggest waiting a week or two for oil to cure before top coating and/or using the Beall method Odie mentioned above.

Is spraying is a problem then consider using General Finishes water based polyurethane "High Performance Water Based Topcoat" which can be used on top of cured oils. Note: GF warns against using water based products on top of Linseed oil or Danish Oil.

 

[Donovan Bailey]

Hi Odie: I appreciate your thoughts. I'm currently on a run where I am using walnut oil as my sanding lubricant on a series of twice-turned cherry bowls. I am power sanding the first course and then going to a wet hand-sanding for the balance of the grits to 400. I have tried the Doctor's, Mahoney's, and La Tourangelle Roasted Walnut Oil. (side note: Just to confirm what Hockenbery said in some previous post...I too do not see any difference in color, viscosity, cure time, etc., between the Mahoney's and the La Tourangelle oils). I bought myself a Beall system but I have not buffed any walnut oil treated bowl yet because I don't have a cured one yet... and I am completely open to trying other wet sanding options if someone has a "go to" method that they have discovered.

 

[Bill Boehme]

You should be wearing respiratory protection at all times, but especially when sanding. The cheap paper "comfort masks" provide almost no protection and they also fog up glasses and faceshields. As a minimum, you should use masks rated N95.

I don't care for the look of wood that has been wet sanded because I feel like the final appearance looks slightly muddied and not as vibrant compared to the results achieved with normal sanding.

 

[Donovan Bailey]

Bill: I wear a Resp-O-Rator whenever I cut or sand. I think finish cutting a twice-turned bowl is about as dusty as sanding one. Only slightly agree on your comment regarding the appearance...but the dust from dry sanding is ugly now to the point of distraction. I'm trying wet sanding as a trade-off measure. I even built one of those lathe plastic barrel dust catchers that Reed pioneered (he has a great video on it) and I still don't like fighting the dust.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I agree that dust is a mess, so the only sanding I do on the lathe is to clean up the surface before I do most of the sanding by hand off the lathe.

I also wear a powered respirator with a HEPA filter so dust and fogging aren't a problem.

 

[Michael Nathal]

I like wet sanding with walnut oil. You can enhance the curing time of WO with sunlight or heat. I can set my kitchen oven to "warm" and the set point of around 150 F. Might take 3-4 hours in the oven. Beall buffing after curing looks quite nice, but I also have had a good results with some danish oil, antique oil, or WOP on top of the cured WO

 

[Donovan Bailey]

Thanks, Michael. I have 6 or 7 large cherry salad bowls drying now for the past week (wet sanded with walnut oil) and I am going to give the first couple of them a go with the Beall. I never thought of it...but I think that I will treat the outside on a couple of them with Danish/Antique and see how they look. Do you have a technique that you use to tell when they are cured/dried?

 

[Bill Boehme]

FWIW, no Danes are harmed in the making of Danish Oil. It is a mixture of linseed oil, mineral spirits, and varnish. Minwax Antique Oil is similar with a great portion of varnish.

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

I tried wet sanding with walnut oil on the advice of Mike from the Doctor's oil and I never could get the results I was after. I also found it to be very slow. But I can understand the concerns with dust.

I wonder if part of your problem with walnut oil curing is that the wood becomes over-oiled from wet sanding. When I first started using walnut oil, I very naively figured more is better and in the end I'd have walnut oil seep out as much as a year later. The results were terrible, leaving a stick mess. That was in softer, more open-poored hardwood—I always have to qualify that I work in woods most turners don't.

Once I kept my walnut oil applications down to one or two and wiped the extra off, the problem went away.

Here's an experiment idea. One great thing to cut oil is citrus oil (d-limonene) and I wonder if wiping down with citrus oil a few times might draw some of the extra walnut oil out that is left from wet sanding. Perhaps then you could finish with a light coat of walnut oil or other oil.

I abandoned walnut oil because it just doesn't hold up as a finish for the softer woods I turn. I used pure Danish oil (no thinners/varnish) for a year or so. It is an excellent finish, but it is thick, slow to apply, and also takes a very long time to dry. I've been on a tung oil kick (again, pure tung oil) for a bit over a year, and thinned with citrus oil it is an excellent finish for my work.

I met a turner who suggested wet sanding with mineral oil and he loved it, using it for many years. I'm suspect, and don't use mineral oil because it NEVER cures...but if you're in the mood to experiment further, perhaps it's worth a try.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

@Zach LaPerriere I thin my pure Tung Oil with terps and get a pretty good dry. Does the citrus oil get a better dry and what mix do you use?

 

[Bill Boehme]

Zach, I haven't heard the term "pure" Danish oil before and wonder what it means. From your description it sounds like partially catalyzed linseed oil.

As a side note about oil finishes, I have a can of really old Old Masters 100% Pure Tung Oil that is getting on in age. It was thick when new, but is thick as molasses now. A couple weeks ago I was pleased to find that the local Rockler's had Old Masters Tung Oil so I bought a can. I was surprised to find that the new stuff was much lighter in color and much thinner. I compared the labels and noticed that the new can left off the words "100% Pure". Maybe they should have left off the word "Tung" as well.

 

[odie]

Donovan......sorry, I almost forgot about this thread......but, I see you are getting a lot of good advice here.

One great advantage of wet sanding, is the fine particles of wood tend to fill the grain and act as somewhat of a sealer. For quite a long time, I was only doing wet sanding at the 600gt level, or 0000 steel wool. This does help to eliminate very fine sanding scratches.....but, comes with some drawbacks of it's own. Particularly with the steel wool, because some woods seem to react to the steel and actually alter/muddy the stain appearance of the Danish Oil. I find this to be mostly the case with very light woods, particularly ash. It all depends on how fine a surface you're after, and even the 0000 steel wool leaves some concentric sanding scratches in the harder woods. With woods that aren't as extremely hard, the technique usually turns out fine. With the harder woods (Rosewoods generally, or very tight grains), I'm using the 0000 steel wool after the Danish Oil is cured.....and, completely dry. At this point, doing this sometimes is more productive if done by hand, and sort of like random orbital. I like to see a perfect finish, that still looks perfect when exposed to a harsh glaring light......and, you have to work at it to get that kind of finish.......but, IMHO, it's worth every bit of the effort.

All of the above is in preparation for the 3-step Beall buff.......and, I find that will improve the surface even more. (It won't, if only a half-heart-ed effort in preparing is done up to that point.)

-----odie-----

 

[Michael Nathal]

Do you have a technique that you use to tell when they are cured/dried?

I sit the bowl on a sheet of paper for about a half hour and see if a ring forms on the paper.

 

[Donovan Bailey]

Odie: I appreciate the great input. In fact, thanks to all of you for the fine discussion.
Zach: I cut a white ash bowl yesterday and took your very reasonable advice and went extremely light on the oil application when I wet sanded it. It made the wood look like clover honey so I think you may have hit on something there. The experimentation continues. (BTW: It pains me deeply to think about losing all of our beautiful ash trees due to the infestation of the Emerald Ash Beetles so appreciate the beautiful wood guys while it lasts.). I know absolutely nothing about orange oil so I look forward to that experiment.
Correction: In a side note in one of my comments above, I mistakenly referenced Mr. Hockenbery instead of Bill Boenme as having posted a comment about the similarities of Mahoney's and La Tourangelle walnut oils.

 

[Donovan Bailey]

I sit the bowl on a sheet of paper for about a half hour and see if a ring forms on the paper.

Great. I never thought of that...not to mention putting the bowl in the oven! Thank you.

 

[Randy Heinemann]

I realize my answer doesn't address the issue of wet sanding techniques but I use my regular dust collection cyclone via a hood to collect the dust at my lathe and wear a Trend Shield. If you don't use a dust collector for other woodworking, I would think that a high quality vacuum attached to a dust hood over the lathe would also work well. A vacuum with a HEPA filter is ideal. Very little dust escapes the collection via the hood when sanding. The dust is fine enough that it almost all gets sucked into the hood.

I am kind of obsessed with dust collection and prevention of inhalation of dust, so would suggest, as others have already, that collection at the source, in this case the lathe, is the first step to eliminating dust in the shop. The second step is personal dust collection via a mask or powered head gear (such as the Trend Pro Shield which also provides facial impact protection). The last step may be to hang an air cleaner in the shop to manage dust which does escape the dust collector/hood.

Sorry, didn't mean to push the thread in a different direction, but I feel that prevention of inhalation of any dust is extremely important for woodworkers.

 

[Donovan Bailey]

Just for the record....Beall buffing was a waste of time.

 

[hockenbery]

Just for the record....Beall buffing was a waste of time.

I use the Beall buffing to finish the finish.

Once I have built up a layer of finish like Waterlox with 3-6 coats there are often small imperfections or streaks in the finish.
The Tripoli and white diamond smooth out the finish.
Then the carnuba adds a sheen.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Whether you like buffing depends on what you like for a finish. I agree with Al, if you're going to use the Beall buffing system then using it to finish the finish is the way to go if you wan a soft sheen finish. I don't think that I would like to use it as a prep on bare wood before applying a finish. I like to have a high gloss on some pieces and hand polish the finish to achieve a mirror surface. I made the mistake once of thinking that buffing or waxing the finish would improve the high gloss.

Occasionally, I turn a bowl and just sand and then apply an oil finish. No buffing, but maybe hand waxing. I've been known to paint a bowl now and then.

The other type of finish that I do is no finish and no sanding for basket illusion pieces so obviously buffing and waxing don't work there either.

So, what do I usually win at club drawings? Tripoli and white diamond compound and carnauba wax.

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

I thin my pure Tung Oil with terps and get a pretty good dry. Does the citrus oil get a better dry and what mix do you use?

Gerald, I haven't thinned Tung oil with terps in a very long time, so I can't recall exactly. Citrus oil is a great replacement for terps and can be used anywhere you'd normally used terps. I'm quoting this from my old friend Corey, who sells his tung oil blend that uses citrus oil as the thinner. My take on thinning with citrus oil is that it partly depends on how thick your tung oil is. I buy pure tung oil from Corey and mix about 1/3 citrus oil (also from Corey). Corey's tung oil is the thinnest I have seen.

I know the Milk Paint Co uses a 50/50 blend, but that seems high to me. I haven't bought their tung oil, but in talking with those who have, it is more the consistency of linseed oil.

I should also add the citrus oil seems much less toxic that terps, as it's sold as food grade by Corey. Corey is in his fifties, and his dad is a retired chemist who was the first to import d-limonene (citrus oil) to North America several decades ago. Tung oil thinned with citrus leaves smell on bowls for a month or so that people love.

Zach, I haven't heard the term "pure" Danish oil before and wonder what it means. From your description it sounds like partially catalyzed linseed oil.

Bill, I may have made up that term! I just meant nothing else added: no thinners, driers, varnish, etc. Neats is a term I believe you used once? On the SDS from Tried and True, they just say "partly modified linseed oil".

A Danish woodworking friend visited a little while ago and said the Dane's go-to oil for almost everything is a polymerized linseed oil, that they just call linseed oil. It's understood that it's polymerized, but not boiled. Used on everything from salad bowls to floors to fine furniture. If it goes on a boat, add pine tar. I asked him about thinners or driers in Danish oil. He looked at me as if I suggested putting ketchup on a croissant. I think he said that would be complete sacrilege.

 

[Bill Boehme]

So I guess that I shouldn't mention my ketchup habit.

 

[Donovan Bailey]

Whether you like buffing depends on what you like for a finish. I agree with Al, if you're going to use the Beall buffing system then using it to finish the finish is the way to go if you wan a soft sheen finish. I don't think that I would like to use it as a prep on bare wood before applying a finish. I like to have a high gloss on some pieces and hand polish the finish to achieve a mirror surface. I made the mistake once of thinking that buffing or waxing the finish would improve the high gloss.

Occasionally, I turn a bowl and just sand and then apply an oil finish. No buffing, but maybe hand waxing. I've been known to paint a bowl now and then.

The other type of finish that I do is no finish and no sanding for basket illusion pieces so obviously buffing and waxing don't work there either.

So, what do I usually win at club drawings? Tripoli and white diamond compound and carnauba wax.

Thanks. I have had some tried and true success in Beall buffing both Waterlox and Antique oil applications...but the point of the discussion was related to maybe using a buffing as part of a finish solution for a wet sanding finish technique. Today I buffed 3 large cherry bowls that I wet sanded and cured with 3 different types of WO (cured 2 weeks) and I was just reporting back that the buffing was a waste of time...not successful on any of the 3 oils. Maybe I am on a quest for nirvana here with this wet sanding kick...however, I still think that it is a worthy goal if I can come up with some workable solution that eliminates a nasty source of dust. Anybody ever wet sand with Salad Oil Finish or Waterlox?

 

[Michael Nathal]

I have had good (great) success with Beall Buffing after wet sanding with walnut oil. My first guess is that your lack of success is due to less than full curing. Also, after wet sanding you should wipe the surface clean with WO on a clean rag.

 

[Donovan Bailey]

I have had good (great) success with Beall Buffing after wet sanding with walnut oil. My first guess is that your lack of success is due to less than full curing. Also, after wet sanding you should wipe the surface clean with WO on a clean rag.

Michael, you may be correct in regard to the curing business. I had the bowls sitting on a wire rack for 2 weeks and I used your "paper test" for determining a cure and none of the bowls left a ring. Also, I didn't particularly soak the bowls during the wet sanding process. I'll cut another couple today, wet sand sparingly with WO, clean wipe a final coat, hit the oven option for 3-4 hrs...and see how the buffing goes.

 

[robo hippy]

I never liked wet sanding other than on madrone hollow forms because it would move so much you couldn't sand them after. Main reason was partly the mess. The other reason was the slurry would fill in things that needed to be sanded out like tear out, and you couldn't see it till you were done....

As for dust control when sanding, this is an old clip before I learned the camera mike was better than the clip on mike, this sanding hood with a 3 hp Oneida DC keeps all the dust contained other than what gets on my arms. Nothing on my glasses or up my nose..

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZsVc7qVx7A


robo hippy

 

[Donovan Bailey]

I'm still on a sanding dust killer binge. I just wet sanded a couple of bowls with Waterlox Original. It ain't true love yet but I sure am going for a second date. It did a fine job of showing the grain and finished nice to the touch. I'm going to Beal buff it and I have pretty good confidence that it will do just fine. Anybody try wet sanding with Watco Danish oil?

 

[Mark Jundanian]

this sanding hood with a 3 hp Oneida DC keeps all the dust contain

That's an interesting solution. Do you have any video of the hood in action?