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What to do with this part of a tool :)

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by Raif Harik, Apr 4, 2020.

  1. Raif Harik

    Raif Harik

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    Hi, with out going into gruesome, probably embarrassing detail, my roughing gouge has been "de-tanged". It's a nice big hunk of steel. I think it's about 1 -1/2" wide. I know there some really creative, jig making, outside of the box thinking people on here and was wondering if anyone had a neat idea for what to do with it. In case you are so inclined let me preempt you by saying I already thought of the neat idea of throwing it away :).
    Anyway, it's no biggie but it would be cool to do something useful with it.
    Thanks for your thoughts,
    Raif
     

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  2. John Walls

    John Walls

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    Ouch! I see I'm not the only one getting good at busting a tang off, just did that to a scraper. Mine went into the drawer of shame.... LOL I don't see that getting fixed, count yourself lucky you did not injure yourself.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2020
  3. Rick Crawford

    Rick Crawford

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    Two thoughts:
    1-fabricate a striking head out of cross grained hardwood, and use it as a mallet driven chisel. Hand carving does have it's place in my studio.

    2-donate it to a mixed media artst.
     
  4. odie

    odie

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    I've got a lot of very short used up scrapers and gouges........just throw them into the drawer (of shame! Ha,ha!!!!!:D)......funny how you get ideas to use scrap pieces of metal and wood later on......just wait......don't throw it away! ;)

    I've used quite a few of those wood handles for other projects, too! :D

    -----odie-----
     
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  5. John Torchick

    John Torchick

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    I guarantee if you throw it away, you will come up with a use two weeks after you toss it. DAMHIK
     
    odie likes this.
  6. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    If you put a handle on the end with the broken tang then it would be great for cleaning out the corners of a kitty litter box. :D

    I think that I see a problem in the way that the tool was sharpened ... it should be a smooth continuous curve. Were you using the tool on a spindle? We are looking for a new forum safety officer ... an expert on the wrong way to do things. I am wanting to retire from that position. If interested, submit a resume detailing your experience in the wrong way to do things. :eek:
     
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  7. Mark Jundanian

    Mark Jundanian

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    @Raif Harik , there's only one thing to do with that. Tack it to the wall at eye level as a reminder not to do whatever it was that you did do ;).
     
  8. Rick Crawford

    Rick Crawford

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    Eye level? Isn't that inviting disaster?
     
  9. Steven Forrest

    Steven Forrest

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    Boy, I'm glad I wasn't around when that happened.That's a BCTM (butt-clenching turning moment).
     
  10. Tom Albrecht

    Tom Albrecht

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    No, that's what happens when the BCTM didn't work.
     
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  11. Don O. Jr.

    Don O. Jr.

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    If you really want to do something useful with it you could grind a new tang and put it back into a new handle you turn. It would just be a shorter tool which would have happened anyway as you used and sharpened it. Copy the original pattern for the new tang end. It would be a lot of work and might ruin the heat treatment rendering it useless-like it is now.

    I like the "hang it on the wall to remind you not to do that again" option as well.
     
    hockenbery likes this.
  12. john lucas

    john lucas AAW Forum Expert

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    You can always have round bar welded on. Dont know how you got the catch but most people destroy their spindle roughing gouge by trying to turn bowls with it.
     
  13. Richard Coers

    Richard Coers

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    Use it as a coffee scoop. Not sure about getting a good weld if the rest of the gouge is hardened steel. Is it HSS or carbon steel?
     
  14. Leo Van Der Loo

    Leo Van Der Loo

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    I would get the angle grinder out and cut the sides away till it is small enough to fit into a handle, it being HSS it can handle the heat, just don’t overdo it.

    Spindle Roughing Gouge.jpg
     
  15. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    Like @Don O. Jr. and @Leo Van Der Loo said. Reshape the tang. An angle grinder is best for this. A disc sander (belt sander if you can track the belt to the edge) with 36 grit would be second choice. Grinder will be much slower but doable with a 60 grit wheel.

    Use it only on spindles. It will still have years of useful life.

    Be sure to Sharpen it with a continuous convex edge. Flat across is fine but softening the corners is a good idea until you get the skill to take advantage of the square corner.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2020
  16. John Torchick

    John Torchick

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    It would make a great paperweight.
     
  17. John Walls

    John Walls

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    That's what I was thinking of doing with my scraper. Might be shorter, but with a longer handle it should work for spindles. Probably turn it into a negative rake scraper. I can see doing it to that gouge also, should work as a roughing gouge again albeit shorter with a longer handle.
     
  18. Mike Johnson

    Mike Johnson

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    Donate it to a knife maker in an hour or two they can turn it into a usable tool or knife of any design. I see a traditional Japanese Kamisori straight razor with a wrapped handle.
     
  19. Raif Harik

    Raif Harik

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    Wow, these are all great and hilarious responses. Thank you. I did think about hanging it in front of my face to remind me of my sins. But really, I need no reminders. I can just look around at the bowl carcasses on the floor to remember not to screw up.
    I have a 12" lathe ( old though not one of the tiny new ones ) and I was turning outboard a 18-19" in platter, which was very out of round. I was thinking of just trueing up the faces and making a cutting board. But it had to turn very slow because my lathe was doing the tango and my motor was smoking. So I'm trying to true up the face in an area that only has wood for like 25 degrees. thump ............. thump ............ thump It was brutal. I tried ALLL the tools, I was getting the best results with this baby. Well, one of those thumps, thumped the wrong way.
    So despite all the good and varied recommendations, I think I'll go with the "grind a new tang" I should have thought of that. These damn things cost $100+ . The metal should be M2. It's pretty old, mid 90's. From my about 3 careers ago but I knew to buy HSS back then. I also like the knife maker idea. Don't know one. but if I screw up this tang, then, well, I could meet one.
    Lastly, there are a couple comments about the grind on there. I find talking about grinds and even angles to be very difficult. If some one could draw a picture of a) what I'm doing wrong, and b) what I should be doing that would be great.
    One thing about angles is that they are always relative to a particular orientation. My grinder says 25 degrees is very steep i.e. a long bevel, and 50 is very blunt but I hear people talk about angles that must be talking about something close to opposite to that.
    Anyway, thanks for all the comments.
    Raif
     
  20. Dean Center

    Dean Center

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    Raif, in all humility and admitting I've made poor decisions in woodworking, if you applied that tool to a spinning 18" face grain blank with a discontinuous edge, you're lucky to be alive.
     
  21. Russell Nugent

    Russell Nugent

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    That tool has one purpose. Working the outside of a spindle. That's it. Not end grain, not side grain.
    Dean's right. You're luck to be uninjured and alive.
     
  22. Raif Harik

    Raif Harik

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    Well, seemed to work pretty well. It wasn't going very fast. That said, I believe that should be my middle name. Or perhaps my boxing name. And in this corner Raif "lucky to be alive" Harik!
     
  23. Mike Brazeau

    Mike Brazeau

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    I did what Leo suggests with one from a Canadian Tire set a couple of years ago and it has worked out fine. Angle grinder and cutoff disk is the handiest tool to have around if you stray into metal work.
     
  24. Dave Landers

    Dave Landers

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    Doesn't matter how well it was cutting. Doesn't matter how fast it was spinning.

    The forces exerted on the gouge when turning face-grain work (like a bowl or latter) are no match for the tang of a spindle roughing gouge (or any other tanged gouge). You need a gouge with a solid full-round bar (aka Bowl Gouge).
     
  25. Timothy White

    Timothy White

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    Raif how far over the tool rest was the gouge at the time of the “significant event”?
    Everything that has been said (in this thread) about bowl turning with an SRG is right on. The problem isn’t the tang or the length of the handle. The problem is the fulcrum. I own a Thompson 11/4” spindle roughing gouge it has a 3/4” round tang.getting a catch like Raif had will probably not bend the tang but, something is going to give like ripping the gouge out of your hand or tearing the blank off the lathe, neither of which is desirable. A bowl gouge hung too far out over the tool rest can cause the same “spectacular” result. Roughing spindles with a SRG will not make one immune to SRG catches and bent tangs. Keeping the rest close helps, using a safety drive and keeping the rest close is the best solution.
    BTW this fulcrum business applies to all turning tools.
     
  26. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    As everyone has said you really are fortunate to to not have received a life threatening injury. On the positive side you now know very vividly what not to do.

    Only use the spindle roughing gouge on spindles, not platters or bowls.

    I think that this is what Al is talking about. From the picture it appears that the edge has been sharpened so that there are three straight segments instead of a continuous smooth curve.

    broken_SRGa.jpg
     
  27. Timothy Allen

    Timothy Allen

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    It looks like maybe the OP has been sharpening the bottom of the gouge, but not the sides/wings in equal measure?

    For reference, here a few shots of my SRG (which isn't perfect):
    SRG-Side.jpg SRG-Top.jpg SRG-Bottom.jpg
    Looking carefully, the right wing (looking down from the top) looks like it is standing just a little proud (sticking out just a little bit more than the rest of the edge), so I should spend just a little bit more time on that wing than on the rest of the edge on my next trip to grinder.

    When I grind my SRG, I start at one of the corner points, and then roll the tool smoothly all the way around to the opposite corner point, and then back again. I try to make sure that the entire edge from corner to corner gets equal attention from the wheel. Hope this helps.
     
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  28. Doug Rasmussen

    Doug Rasmussen

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    What's the difference between a bowl gouge and spindle gouge?

    In the other thread about roughing down a blank being quicker than bandsawing, there's mention of using a bowl gouge to speed the exterior roughing. Roughing the exterior of a blank to round with a bowl gouge would be similar to a spindle turning wouldn't it?

    I can see that to rough out the interior of a bowl might be different than roughing the exterior. Do both operations use the same style bowl gouge?
     
  29. Raif Harik

    Raif Harik

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    @Timothy White et al. re safety. First let me be clear I do not blame the tool. This was a clear case of user error. The issue that led to my trying dumb stuff, was that I have an under powered lathe that is not very securely attached to the ground. I had to turn way to slow just to keep the lathe from walking away. So I was just trying to see what would remove the most wood. When I get a better lathe I'll restart this project using the right tool.
     
  30. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    modern gouges have flutes ground into a round bar.
    Bowl gouge a deep flute is ground into the top of the bar.
    Spindle gouge the top 1/3 or 1/2 of the bar is ground of then a shallow flute ground.

    Last question depends on the grind used. The Ellsworth Grind does the outside and inside.
    Michelson grind does the outside and inside.

    This is a PowerPoint I use in gouge demos
    http://aaw.hockenbery.net/tgouge intro.pdf

    Two slides from the PowerPoint
    767544B8-88E9-484A-ABC6-659749A7996A.jpeg B223590B-C061-4915-B49E-F700DEF8AABC.jpeg
     
  31. Rob Fridenberg

    Rob Fridenberg

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    Hmm - still scratching my head about this - glad it came up because I was wondering why the spindle gauge needs to be constructed this way. Why can't it be made from a large diameter round bar? Why does it have to be "too weak"??

    I assume that, given a spindle is typically a smaller dia than a bowl, that the force exterted on the tool is less, and therefore a weaker design is used/ok?? But why? Trying to understand why a flat bar is used for the basis of the spindle roughing gouge??

    Please help clear this up so that I can fall asleep tonight!!

    Thanks!! :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
  32. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    Most modern spindle and detail gouges are made from a round bar of steel. Their weakness is only due to their small diameters.

    Continental gouges and SRGs are usually made from flat bars. SRGs are plenty strong enough for spindles up to 6-8” in diameter.

    Forging a flat bar of steel is a cheaper and uses less material.
    The Thompson 1 1/4 SRG May be made from a round bar it’s $225 unhandled
    88709B66-CD78-4C5E-A2B8-93B56765D83C.png
    Hamlet 1 1/4 from flat bar is $75 with a handle
    62C86F66-8438-447B-90AA-23042D27C84A.jpeg
     
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  33. Brad Winesett

    Brad Winesett

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    I would caution against regrinding a new tang on the tool and re-using it. I did the exact same thing with a Sorby spindle roughing gouge when I first started out. I emailed Sorby to ask about re-grinding a new tang. They told me not to do it. The reason is that the gouges are not hardened the full length of the tool. The hardness of the steel tapers off as you get closer to the tang. This is on purpose. Hardened steel is more brittle, so the tang area is left softer so that it is less brittle and therefore can bend to some degree. In case of a catastrophic catch, the tang will hopefully bend instead of break.
     
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  34. Doug Rasmussen

    Doug Rasmussen

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    A new handle could be made. Bore a hole the radius of the remaining portion. Stick the gouge into the hole and use a slightly tapered round wedge to secure it.
     
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  35. Leo Van Der Loo

    Leo Van Der Loo

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    I would hope that the person that had a catastrophic catch using the Spindle Roughing Gouge on a faceplate turning would have learned that it was him, not the tool that was wrong by using it that way.

    I would have no problem using such a repurposed tool, a SRG used properly with the toolrest set closely as it should be plenty strong enough.

    Showing you here an old turner that turns his renown Candle sticks with a spindle gouge holding it in his hand without even a handle on it and I’m sure he was not a strong man at that age, there is just not much levering on a SRG if used as it should be.

    Rude Osolnik.jpg Rude's gouge.jpg
     

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