Altering the natural color of light woods without losing authentic color appeal...

[odie]

If you offer two bowls, free of embellishments and identical in all aspects to the buying public.....one being maple, and the other walnut......the majority of those who would be interested in having it in their home will pick the walnut bowl much more often than the maple bowl. From my observations, I'd say the ratio is somewhere around 4 or 5 to 1. For those of us who are "bowl turners", the unfortunate reality of this is the ratio of dark to light woods available to us is somewhere in the neighborhood of exactly the opposite!

Of course, all of the above is my opinion.....and it's also my opinion that most of those buyers are more interested in "natural" appearing bowls, rather than bowls in an unnatural altered state. All of this has led me to do a bit of experimenting on woods like maple and ash in an attempt to darken them, without losing the desirability attributed to having the appearance of a naturally occurring color. Everything I've tried has been unsuccessful, and the results are always a bit fake looking. The difference can be subtle, but the subconscious mind does recognize it. It is the same sort of thing as the appeal a perfect ogee curve has over an almost-perfect ogee curve......subtle, but our subconscious mind does pick it up.....whether or not we can intelligently acknowledge the differences...

Is this goal impossible, or is there a way to accomplish the intended results?

-----odie-----

 

[Keith Mombourquette]

60 or so years ago I built some of my first furniture projects out of hard maple. I decided it was too light, and so I stained the pieces. While I liked the color, I did not like that the maple did not look "natural". After that I resolved that I would select the material for my projects based in part on the final color I wanted, and not try to alter the color. As I sit in my living room, I have many pieces I have made. Only one of the stained maple pieces remain. They are all very satisfying to look at, but that one still bothers me.

Now that I am a Wood turner, I have been experimenting with color, but as a means of embellishment, not as an attempt to alter the natural appearance of the wood to try and make it look like something else.

 

[hockenbery]

depends on your area for the colors of local wood available.
you market experience depends on your potential buyers

My sales experience is mostly hollow forms
Bowls from white woods - holly, maple, bleached box elder always sold well.
cherry bowls - reddish always sold well
walnut - didn’t seem to be as popular as lighter woods.

for hollow forms bi-color woods ambrosia maple or any wood with a sap ring heartwood always sells quickly.

as far as colors the browns dominated the local woods in md.
Brown - beech, oak, cedar, cherry, sassafras, mulberry, Osage orange, sweet gum, Bradford pear, hickory
whitish - holly, box elder, maple, poplar
dark - walnut, butternut.

in Florida.
dark - rosewood, red gum eucalyptus
whitish - citrus, maple, holly, sugar berry, sweet bay magnolia,
Brown - oak, cherry, cedar, sweet gum, camphor, elm, mahogany, hickory, pecan

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

We don't sell many bowls here, but to change appearance to me would also entail a design change as Keith indicated. A wider rim can be stained and otherwise embellished. I have used wide beads at the rim dyed for a different impact. Like Odie I like the walnut but cannot say that it outsells other woods.

 

[Bill Blasic]

I have not found the walnut over maple to be the case here. They sell equally well in this area where cherry is by far the favorite bowl flavor. I have given up as to what is going to sell as you never know what one person perceives over another. From all the years of watching people when they look at bowls the very first thing 98% of them do is to run their fingers down the inside of the bowl. I assume that smoothness is an arbiter in their choices.

 

[Brian Gustin]

I have not found the walnut over maple to be the case here. They sell equally well in this area where cherry is by far the favorite bowl flavor. I have given up as to what is going to sell as you never know what one person perceives over another. From all the years of watching people when they look at bowls the very first thing 98% of them do is to run their fingers down the inside of the bowl. I assume that smoothness is an arbiter in their choices.

I'll second that... perhaps it's a regional thing...... I see the same thing here, in the same northcentral/northeast corner of P.A. all the bowls I have sold, majority are either A) grain pattern B) finish and C) type (natural edge vs twice turned) rarely do they ask what type of wood it is, or seem to care much about the color, but like Bill, seems most all of them without fail, first run their fingers down the inner surface of the bowl (typically just prior to picking it up) and so far most of my bowls have been Cherry or Ash, with some Apple & Magnolia thrown in, have not really noticed that color has influenced anything, but then, I have yet to get any darker woods (other than some apple that turned really chocolate brown)

 

[odie]

Well, it appears as if nobody else has found a way to darken light colored wood, without it looking artificial....

As far as the brewing controversy over my general belief that light woods don't sell as well as dark woods......it bears out with my sales. This does not mean that light colored woods don't sell, but if the exact same bowl in every respect were offered, most customers will tend to favor the darker colored woods.

Give it some outstanding grain, or burl figure, and any bowl, dark or light, will be very appealing...

-----odie-----

 

[Karl Loeblein]

Consider moving away from earth tones on maple. My maple bowls that have been dyed with Chestnut Spirit Stains get the most attention. Figured maple is nice but not necessary. Here’s a blue platter below for an example, but red bowls also nice because in Asian countries it symbolizes luck, joy, and happiness.

 

[odie]

Consider moving away from earth tones on maple. My maple bowls that have been dyed with Chestnut Spirit Stains get the most attention. Figured maple is nice but not necessary. Here’s a blue platter below for an example, but red bowls also nice because in Asian countries it symbolizes luck, joy, and happiness.

Hi Karl.......As with unnatural dyes and all other kinds of embellishments, I have no problem with those who wish to take this route...and I even have an appreciation for it when it's well done. Being someone who appreciates a more natural look, I reject doing this for my own works these days. At one time, I did experiment with different kinds of embellishments, but no longer do. I've found that my work appeals to those who are like minded, and I'm not alone in that.

(This is sort of like the current fad where women have orange, purple and green hair! I think it's fine, and have no problem with their freedom to do that, but I personally think it isn't very appealing.)

If I could change the coloring of certain woods and make it look like a naturally occurring color, I would be interested in experimenting with that. Otherwise, I have come to a point where I've become a "purist" when it comes to my turning efforts. My turnings reflects a theme where every visible thing I do on my finished bowls is done on the lathe, and nothing off the lathe. Take a quick look at "my AAW photos" below, and you can see where my personal turning style is going....I am embracing that. I do not intend to stop turning naturally colored maples, ashes, and the like, but I will continue to pick and choose among the best figured examples of these woods for my own work.


-----odie-----

 

[Brian Nowak-Thompson]

to get realistic natural wood colors, you almost have to go with laying different dyes colors on. Jeff Jewitt, Nick Agar, Marc Spagnuolo (the wood whisperer) are good resources to start with. I'm finding is it almost as much work to match a wood as it is to turn the bowl. I find it a lot more rewarding to use color as a decoration like Karl shows with his blue bowl. It offers people something different to like about your work.

 

[stu senator]

Two thoughts come to mind for experimentation.

Cherry darkens naturally with time. Place a finished turned raw wood bowl and place it outdoors in the sun. I think it is UV as most furniture I have seen has a finish to seal against oxidation. Other woods may also do this.

Oak and some other woods have been fumed. This has been done for years in furniture and I have done this a few times to some small parts and turned items. This is easy to try and all you need is a plastic container with a lid, a cup of household ammonia, a safe place to put it (ventilated) and some time (a day or two).

Stu

 

[Richard Coers]

I've read about people getting a carmel color in light woods by baking it. Similar to the thermally modified wood used to improve rot resistance.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CA6HbwWe7M

 

[Glenn Lefley]

Well, it appears as if nobody else has found a way to darken light colored wood, without it looking artificial....

As far as the brewing controversy over my general belief that light woods don't sell as well as dark woods......it bears out with my sales. This does not mean that light colored woods don't sell, but if the exact same bowl in every respect were offered, most customers will tend to favor the darker colored woods.

Give it some outstanding grain, or burl figure, and any bowl, dark or light, will be very appealing...

-----odie-----

I get beautiful deep dark maple from a Luther company. They bake it in there vacuum ovens. So it goes above 451f and does not burst into flames as it is in a vacuum oven. It comes out beautiful chocolate brown. They do this as a lot of it they slice into billets for guitar makers as the baking improves the tonal quality of the woods, but they also do woodturning rounds sometimes. See if you have a company in the USA that does this.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

If you offer two bowls, free of embellishments and identical in all aspects to the buying public.....one being maple, and the other walnut......the majority of those who would be interested in having it in their home will pick the walnut bowl much more often than the maple bowl. From my observations, I'd say the ratio is somewhere around 4 or 5 to 1. For those of us who are "bowl turners", the unfortunate reality of this is the ratio of dark to light woods available to us is somewhere in the neighborhood of exactly the opposite!

Of course, all of the above is my opinion.....and it's also my opinion that most of those buyers are more interested in "natural" appearing bowls, rather than bowls in an unnatural altered state. All of this has led me to do a bit of experimenting on woods like maple and ash in an attempt to darken them, without losing the desirability attributed to having the appearance of a naturally occurring color. Everything I've tried has been unsuccessful, and the results are always a bit fake looking. The difference can be subtle, but the subconscious mind does recognize it. It is the same sort of thing as the appeal a perfect ogee curve has over an almost-perfect ogee curve......subtle, but our subconscious mind does pick it up.....whether or not we can intelligently acknowledge the differences...

Is this goal impossible, or is there a way to accomplish the intended results?

-----odie-----

Sometimes while I'm finishing a bowl, or even when I'm roughing it, I can tell it's going to sell fast. Design and good-looking timber are a must. I think it was Jaques Vissery that said, without design is just firewood. Then you have 2 kinds of buyers here. One, the couple that wants something nice to remember their trip. They spend whatever. Then, the tourist buying something for the neighbor watching their cat and watering the plants. They will not spend the money to buy a dark color or light color bowl. A magnet would do.

 

[Brian Gustin]

I get beautiful deep dark maple from a Luther company. They bake it in there vacuum ovens. So it goes above 451f and does not burst into flames as it is in a vacuum oven. It comes out beautiful chocolate brown. They do this as a lot of it they slice into billets for guitar makers as the baking improves the tonal quality of the woods, but they also do woodturning rounds sometimes. See if you have a company in the USA that does this.

Ah I remember now, they actually have names for that type wood, but can't seem to think of it .. AH! Torrified, I believe it is called..... Torrified Maple

 

[R Henrickson]

Aqua fortis yields beautiful results on curly maple, but only curly maple, highlighting the curl. It was used on the stocks of fine long rifles.

 

[Glenn Lefley]

Ah I remember now, they actually have names for that type wood, but can't seem to think of it .. AH! Torrified, I believe it is called..... Torrified Maple

Yes torrified. I was trying to think of the name.

 

[Glenn Lefley]

If you offer two bowls, free of embellishments and identical in all aspects to the buying public.....one being maple, and the other walnut......the majority of those who would be interested in having it in their home will pick the walnut bowl much more often than the maple bowl. From my observations, I'd say the ratio is somewhere around 4 or 5 to 1. For those of us who are "bowl turners", the unfortunate reality of this is the ratio of dark to light woods available to us is somewhere in the neighborhood of exactly the opposite!

Of course, all of the above is my opinion.....and it's also my opinion that most of those buyers are more interested in "natural" appearing bowls, rather than bowls in an unnatural altered state. All of this has led me to do a bit of experimenting on woods like maple and ash in an attempt to darken them, without losing the desirability attributed to having the appearance of a naturally occurring color. Everything I've tried has been unsuccessful, and the results are always a bit fake looking. The difference can be subtle, but the subconscious mind does recognize it. It is the same sort of thing as the appeal a perfect ogee curve has over an almost-perfect ogee curve......subtle, but our subconscious mind does pick it up.....whether or not we can intelligently acknowledge the differences...

Is this goal impossible, or is there a way to accomplish the intended results?

-----odie-----

Here is an example some comapinies call if roasted maple, some torified. Okay I just reread this torified maple is the real deal under vacuum. Roasted is a term Gibson guitar came out with and is a marketable term . The bake it m the longer it’s baked the more it carmalizes . So in essence you can get it darker then carmalized. When it’s terrified it goes to a hotter temperature as under vacuum and changes tonal quality of wood for guitars. So you could experiment with an outdoor oven and bake wood under 451degrees for periods of time to get the rich dark natural colors.

 

[odie]

I get beautiful deep dark maple from a Luther company. They bake it in there vacuum ovens. So it goes above 451f and does not burst into flames as it is in a vacuum oven. It comes out beautiful chocolate brown. They do this as a lot of it they slice into billets for guitar makers as the baking improves the tonal quality of the woods, but they also do woodturning rounds sometimes. See if you have a company in the USA that does this.

How do those price, Glenn?

Got a link to the outfit, or price sheet?

Edit: Never mind.....OK, I see it:

Hardwood Lumber & Tools | Buy Hardwood Lumber, Hardware Tools & Supplies Online - KJP Select Hardwoods

Shop quality hardwood lumber at KJP Select Hardwoods. We are a candy store for hardwood, hardware tools, and supplies serving Canada and the United States! Buy lumber online from KJP Select Hardwoods.

kjpselecthardwoods.com

-----odie-----

 

[odie]

OK, I see roasted ash, maple, and curly birch.......does look a little darker than normal. IMHO, not dark enough to compete with naturally dark woods that are available to me.

There are some 8/4 roasted ash and maple, but all boards with straight grain.

I did learn something here, though.

Thanks for the heads up on this, Glenn...

-----odie-----

 

[Doug Freeman]

I have done a lot of wood coloring (dyes and pigmented stains) over the 35+ years I’ve been finishing/refinishing wood, all furniture until I started turning ~ 7 years ago. While I’ve used some dark and intense coloring, it was never to make one wood look like another wood - it was done to meet a particular color pallet for a project.

For turnings I do some bright and intense, multi colored stuff, but most are more natural coloring. For light woods, I mix some dye into the finish to bring more attention to curly grain, as the more porous areas will soak up more finish/color, and sometimes use some glaze to take the eyes to embellishment markings. I don’t try to get maple to look like walnut, though I can from a color perspective ( but not a grain perspective). I find people appreciate the enhancement of the curly grain more so than a dark color.

 

[Daniel Henry]

Has anyone experimented with the various shades/colors of shellac? I just finished my very first natural edge bowl in Dogwood. I expected the Dogwood to be "light" but not as "light" as it was was. A couple of coats of blonde shellac imparted a slightly red hue without diminishing the grain.

 

[Dean Center]

Odie,
I just reread Jeff Jewett's book on finishing wood and he goes into considerable depth on coloring wood. He's not a turner or using bright and artificial colored dyes. He's a furniture finisher, who sometimes needs to get a piece to match the rest of a set, or achieve a certain look. I recall one series of photos in his book where he showed the subtle variations in outcome from using different coloring techniques on the same piece of wood. To my neanderthal eyes, the look was only subtly different, and yet, I definitely felt a preference for the one that he said came out the 'warmest.' I believe there are methods to achieve the result you desire, if you search for them.

 

[Gary Beasley]

I have on occasion used Minwax Natural color that didnt look like it had much color to it but when it hit the wood really brought out the grain.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Odie I don't like changing the authentic wood's color, but sometimes that is what's needed, still showing the grain and the different sapwood color and any rays if present, makes it not too bad and yes I know it is not the originalcolor of that wood, but do most people/consumers know what that wood is and the natural color of it ??

I got two pictures here of on flared Apple bowl and a Oak HF, so is it bad to do this ??

 

[Glenn Lefley]

Odie I don't like changing the authentic wood's color, but sometimes that is what's needed, still showing the grain and the different sapwood color and any rays if present, makes it not too bad and yes I know it is not the originalcolor of that wood, but do most people/consumers know what that wood is and the natural color of it ??

I got two pictures here of on flared Apple bowl and a Oak HF, so is it bad to do this ??

View attachment 40456 View attachment 40457

As a painter, stainer in my day job these with the two tone wood,look really natural. I might even ask what type of wood those were not thinking they were dyed!

 

[odie]

Odie I don't like changing the authentic wood's color, but sometimes that is what's needed, still showing the grain and the different sapwood color and any rays if present, makes it not too bad and yes I know it is not the originalcolor of that wood, but do most people/consumers know what that wood is and the natural color of it ??

I got two pictures here of on flared Apple bowl and a Oak HF, so is it bad to do this ??

View attachment 40456 View attachment 40457

I would have guessed the oak, but that apple wood on top could have fooled me......What did you use to color it, Leo?

You are probably correct that much of the consumer public could be fooled much easier than those who work with wood quite a bit, which includes many of those who frequent this forum.

-----odie-----

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I would have guessed the oak, but that apple wood on top could have fooled me......What did you use to color it, Leo?

You are probably correct that much of the consumer public could be fooled much easier than those who work with wood quite a bit, which includes many of those who frequent this forum.

-----odie-----

I used iron acetate Odie )

 

[Marc Banka]

Two points.
We turn, and love wood for it’s infinite variety and natural beauty. We make our pieces in a way that hopefully shows that beauty to the world. And then try to change it? Seems that if we want a darker piece, we should choose darker wood. Of course allowing for oil darkening the walnut or enhancing the grain and figure in light woods. Otherwise, to me, it’s like the marriage when she’s sure she can fix him, mold him into the guy she really wanted. Or the same with whatever mix or orientation of sexes you apply.
Secondly, why create based on what you think will sell? I can’t do it. Mostly I fear that would suck all the joy out of creating. All my life I’ve had jobs with productivity metrics and piecework pay systems. I’m done with that. I create mostly for my sanity, make what I love, and hope my vision-my sense of beauty will be shared by potential buyers. You/we may know more about our craft and the elements, designs, proportions and craftsmanship than those viewing our work. It must be well above that of our buyers, not that you should point things out to them.
I suppose I’m fortunate in that I don’t have to sell, I sell a few times a year. But when I do, I always get my price and I tend to price high.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Two points.
We turn, and love wood for it’s infinite variety and natural beauty. We make our pieces in a way that hopefully shows that beauty to the world. And then try to change it? Seems that if we want a darker piece, we should choose darker wood. Of course allowing for oil darkening the walnut or enhancing the grain and figure in light woods. Otherwise, to me, it’s like the marriage when she’s sure she can fix him, mold him into the guy she really wanted. Or the same with whatever mix or orientation of sexes you apply.
Secondly, why create based on what you think will sell? I can’t do it. Mostly I fear that would suck all the joy out of creating. All my life I’ve had jobs with productivity metrics and piecework pay systems. I’m done with that. I create mostly for my sanity, make what I love, and hope my vision-my sense of beauty will be shared by potential buyers. You/we may know more about our craft and the elements, designs, proportions and craftsmanship than those viewing our work. It must be well above that of our buyers, not that you should point things out to them.
I suppose I’m fortunate in that I don’t have to sell, I sell a few times a year. But when I do, I always get my price and I tend to price high.

Marc for me the real wood color is what I like the pieces to be, however sometimes things happen to the wood and it does not look good, so disguising it is about the only way to rescue it, for instance the Oak ball shape HF I turned wet and (not thinking) I wiped over the bowl to feel the surface with my wet hands that had just wiped the lathe bed off, and so there I got a dark stain on this Oak, my option was to burn it or darken the whole piece, and that is what I did, with an outcome I can live with, the Apple bowl had something similar happen to it and I got it nearly black, looks OK to me.

So maybe there are times where changes the woods color is a good thing

 

[Randy Anderson]

Like most, very little dark toned wood around here to turn. Leo, how do you make and apply the iron acetate? That piece looks great and natural. Not something I intend to do often, I still focus on "the wood is what it is" and natural is my theme but there are times when it might be worth considering.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Like most, very little dark toned wood around here to turn. Leo, how do you make and apply the iron acetate? That piece looks great and natural. Not something I intend to do often, I still focus on "the wood is what it is" and natural is my theme but there are times when it might be worth considering.

I made it and brushed it on the wood twice to get it darker, outcome depend on the tannin in the wood, you can buy these products or make them, like a strong thee that is put on the wood first.

Info here below. it is iron (like steel wool) dissolved in acetic acid.

Iron(II) acetate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Marc Banka]

Leo,
I appreciate the use of coloring as you explained it. And also see it as an embellishment, or just because one might be in a crazy mood. I have taken a torch to a piece, and dyed it, scrubbed it-all kinds of fun.
My problem is with the idea that since I don’t have dark wood, and ’think’ that’s what sells, I’ll fake it by staining. Maybe it’s ok if one identifies it plainly, ie. This is made of ash, blackened with India ink, for instance.

 

[Karl Loeblein]

All this talk about torrified wood made me want to try my hand at cooking a Silver Maple board. Baked the rather board in toaster oven at 220, 280, 350 and 380 degrees for 30 minutes at each temp. Mostly wanting to see if roasting the maple would help show off the chatoyance that was hidden when left plain.

Top board is sealed with ultra thin CA glue then buffed in out. Bottom left plain for comparison.

 

[Randy Anderson]

Karl, very striking difference in the pieces and nice natural looking color, at least to me, in the top one. I have a lot of recently cut maple if you want to try a bowl.

 

[Karl Loeblein]

Karl, very striking difference in the pieces and nice natural looking color, at least to me, in the top one. I have a lot of recently cut maple if you want to try a bowl.

I didn’t want to risk trying a thicker piece of tiger curl maple for my first test in case there was still water trapped inside. Next test will be test a shallow bowl or platter blank, but leave it a bit longer at the lower temps to make sure the wood gets close to 0% moisture content before turning up the heat above 300 degrees. Appreciate the offer, but I got plenty of curly maple at the moment from a fallen tree that I processed this spring.

 

[Lennart Delin]

I have never seen any stain that looks natural to me and I never use it. The only method I use is fuming with ammonia, but this only works with wood rich in tannins, particularly oak but also e.g. cherry. Tannins are only in the heartwood, so the sapwood is not affected, which can be utilised to make an effect. Here fumed oak

Heat treatment is becoming more and more popular for especially flooring. Heat treatment makes the wood a little harder and more brittle. It also reduces the moisture uptake. One problem for us turners is that the wood must first be completely dry, so only moderate thickness is possible, unless twice turned and heat treated by ourselves. Torrefaction is another process that uses higher temperatures and destroys the properties of the wood. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrefaction

 

[Lars Hansen]

All this talk about torrified wood made me want to try my hand at cooking a Silver Maple board. Baked the rather board in toaster oven at 220, 280, 350 and 380 degrees for 30 minutes at each temp. Mostly wanting to see if roasting the maple would help show off the chatoyance that was hidden when left plain.

Top board is sealed with ultra thin CA glue then buffed in out. Bottom left plain for comparison.
View attachment 40740

Karl, does your "baking" process darken the wood all the way through?

 

[Karl Loeblein]

Karl, does your "baking" process darken the wood all the way through?

Yes, some woods like maple darken all the way through as long as you leave in the the oven long enough to get the center as hot as the outside. I started off with lower temps around 200 degrees to warm up the board up and drive off any moisture. I then raise the temp by 20 to 30 for around 30 minutes each time until I reach my final temp around 380 to 385 where the board is kept until I get the desired darkness level. I then shut off the stove and let everything cool down. You’ll want a vent on during the higher temps.

Here’s my second test board of 1” thick white Tiger Curl Silver Maple that got roasted this weekend to a nice golden brown. The roasting caused the board to warp a little so I ran it through my planer to flatten it. This removed about 1/8“ to 3/16th an inch, but I was glad to see the brown color remained the same.

 

[Russ Braun]

Woodturning meets the Food Channel!! It does look pretty tasty!!